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<McParen>
if I wrap defun and export in a macro, when is that symbol exported? during compile, load, execute? I have a problem that since i wrapped defun and export in a macro, the symbol is not recognized as external in another package in the file that is loaded after the first file in the asd system definition.
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<McParen>
If i call defun, then export it works fine, but when i wrap defun and export in a macro and then call the macro, it doesnt. I know that i can solve that somehow using eval-when, but i dont understand what i should wrap and when.
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<McParen>
okay, i think i got it, but i dont understand why it works: the call to export has to be called during :compile-toplevel. so i ave to wrap the export form in eval-when within the macro. defun is obviously called during compile-toplevel anyway.
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<mrcom>
McParen: How are you wrapping it in the macro? If you are, for example, putting them in a LET then they're no longer top-level forms, and that makes a difference.
<mrcom>
However, if they are in a PROGN then they're still top-level.
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<mrcom>
clhs 3.2.3 discusses "not-compile-time" and "compile-time-too" mode.
<mrcom>
clhs 3.2.3.1 has the pretty archane rules re top-level form processing.
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<mrcom>
And clhs 3.2.3.1.1 , "Processing of Defining Macros", may be your issue.
<McParen>
mrcom: i am wrapping it in a progn (defmacro (progn (defun ..) (export ..))), but the export isnt visible in another package unless i wrap export in (eval-when ..) so the export is done before the other package is read.
<McParen>
do you know when macros are expanded, during compile time or even before that?
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<kurtis>
Hey, newbie question. I installed sbcl. I am also using Slime. If I want to add a dependency to my project (e.g. Drakma) then what is the conventional way(s) to do that?
<mrcom>
"In particular, the information stored by the defining macros at compile time might or might not be available to the interpreter (either during or after compilation), or during subsequent calls to the compiler."
<mrcom>
And then that section gives an example of non-portable usage, and then making it portable by wrapping everything in EVAL-WHEN.
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<mrcom>
McParen: When you compile the definition file, are you loading the FASL before compiling the next file, or just compiling it and then compiling the next?
<mrcom>
clhs3.2.3 "Successive forms are read from the file by compile-file and processed in not-compile-time mode; in this mode, compile-file arranges for forms to be evaluated only at load time and not at compile time. When compile-file is in compile-time-too mode, forms are evaluated both at compile time and load time."
<mrcom>
One effect is that merely compiling something doesn't make it available. You have to load the compiled file. _Unless_ you've engaged compile-time-too mode by using the proper combination of EVAL-WHEN options.
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<McParen>
mrcom: i am compiling one afer another from the asd definiton.
<mrcom>
asdf does a load after compile, so that's OK.
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<mrcom>
McParen: OK, out of easy answers :) The next steps, if you wanted to figure out exactly what's going on, would probably be to expand the macro, plug the expanded code directly into the file,
<mrcom>
and play around with EVAL-WHEN, trying a different compiler, etc. It *sounds* like the EXPORT isn't getting loaded, or is loaded before the function definition, but I'm having a hard time imagining something that wouldn't result in a error when loading the first file.
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<mon_key_phn>
@mmontone hey there.
<mmontone>
mon_key_phn hi
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<mon_key_phn>
hey there, I'm stan nice to meet you.
<mon_key_phn>
So, I guess my first question about mold-desktop (MD) is the *store* variable.
<mmontone>
Hi Stan, nice to meet you.
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<mon_key_phn>
thanks for making MD it is neat. still just starting to play with it.
<mmontone>
The *store* variable is an in-memory database with all the user objects.
<mmontone>
Ok, MD is a complex system, and not very well documented atm.
<mon_key_phn>
when i evaluate start it wants a value for *store* which I've set to <SOME-PATH>/mold-desktop.db
<mmontone>
Ok, you can start with :load-database nil
<mon_key_phn>
i just created this file, but it isn't clear if there is a database format or if i can just supply a filename.
<mmontone>
I will change that so that no error is signaled if there's no database file.
<mmontone>
The database format is a CL-STORE format file.
<mmontone>
But try with :load-database nil
<mon_key_phn>
Yes, I did this :)
<mon_key_phn>
Is there an interface to the database? Is there something that should be done to initialize the db?
<mon_key_phn>
I multiple levels of interest in MD. Im interested in how you impplemented it with clog. I figured it might be a good way to learn clog.
<mmontone>
Try using 'Add object from url' command.
<mmontone>
Then 'Save system' command and see if that works.
<mon_key_phn>
at a more conceptual level im interested in the interfacing concepts.
<mmontone>
If it doesn't, I'll fix the database things this week.
<mon_key_phn>
so the URL object creates fine
<mon_key_phn>
does this initialize the db?
<mmontone>
At the conceptual level, MD works with objects with everything exposed, attributes, status, events, etc.
<mmontone>
And then they get attarched serveral views.
<mmontone>
The types of views available depend on the type of the objects.
<mmontone>
The 'Save system' command initializes the database.
<mon_key_phn>
Yes, it's very introspective. That's part of the appeal, but also the challenge of wrapping my head around it.
<mon_key_phn>
I went down an Alan Kay youtube hole after i installed mold. Also, the naked-objects paper
<mmontone>
I really really should document things. And at the conceptual level. There's a manual, but my native language is Spanish, and so struggle with explaning things naturally in English.
<mmontone>
But that's something I need to do.
<mon_key_phn>
OK, so i loaded the URL and then did System > Save User Data. That effectively saved the file to the cl-store file
<mmontone>
Ok, so now if you start mold again, it will load your objects.
<mon_key_phn>
I understand. Documentation is challenging :)
<mmontone>
It is very raw at the moment.
<mmontone>
YOu also have 'Load system' command to load the database file.
<mon_key_phn>
You've accomplished more with mold most other CL things i've encountered.
<mmontone>
CLOG makes the UI easy, or as easy as it is possible, and so I was able to implement complex things.
<mon_key_phn>
how do you use mold?
<mmontone>
CLOG UI composes very well, and that is a need for this kind of UI, and the Web tech makes the layout stuff, etc, good.
<mon_key_phn>
I've been watching what you're doing with the emacs-inpsector stuff recently.
<mon_key_phn>
abstractly i feel like i can visualize how you are approaching UI design from a Lisp/smalltalk approach.
<mmontone>
There's not a single way of using Mold, and everything is raw. But I thought using for bookmarking stuff on the web would be a good start.
<mmontone>
But it is a desktop environment, and so, I include RSS feeds, tasks, calendar, potentially email, etc.
<mmontone>
But no applications, only objects, and views and workspaces.
<uhuh>
What would be the best way to make a function work with both numbers and symbols? Would good style here be defining separate functions, using typecase, or using generics?
<uhuh>
These are math functions and I want to be able to both compute them and get symbolic representations depending on what I call them with
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<mmontone>
Commands need to declare the type of its arguments. And they dont' support a type like: (or integer symbol) at the moment.
<mmontone>
The UI uses the types of the arguments of the command to ask the user their value using a method that depends on the argument type.
<mmontone>
Of instance, if an argument has type (member foo bar), the UI lets you select from a list with foo and bar.
<mmontone>
But I don't have support for something like (or integer symbol) atm.
<uhuh>
Oh my question was not about CLOG but Common Lisp anyways
<mmontone>
Sorry, I got confused, I thought you were mon_key_phn
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<quidnunc>
I'm trying to try out "unix-in-lisp" (I have very little experience with common lisp). When trying to (ql:quickload "unix-in-lisp") I get the error ""no dispatch function defined for #\t" when trying to compile the file "hu.dwim.util-stable-git/source/miscellaneous.lisp". (I'm using ultralisp). What am I doing wrong?
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<mrcom>
uhuh: There are a couple of basic ways to specialize functionality by parameter type.
<mrcom>
One is by typecase and such--conditional code inside a function.
<mrcom>
The other is with generic functions. This is the generally preferred idiom, but it depends on what you're doing.
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<mrcom>
With GFs you can do things such as "(defmethod foo ((arg1 symbol) (arg2 symbol)) (+ (symbol-value arg1) (symbol-value arg2)))", and
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<uhuh>
Alright, then shadowing the core math functions with generic equivalents that can also accept symbols seems like a good path, thank you
<mrcom>
Oooh, nope.
<mon_key_phn>
@mmontone i think i killled our chat buffer on accident.
<uhuh>
Why not?
<mrcom>
A generic function has to be declared as such, for example "(defgeneric foo (arg1 arg2))"
<aeth>
if you want generic arithmetic, you have to turn variadic into binary, so you'd keep a variadic function for #'+ and then would have to have a binary one that the #'+ expands into, such as #'%+
<aeth>
whether or not you use a method or something more sophisticated with macros (or both)
<aeth>
s/whether or not/whether/
<aeth>
You also have to make a note that (+) is 0 and (+ x) is x if x is a number, so there are two non-binary expansions for a call to #'+ as well
<mrcom>
"Conforming programs" (ones that will behave consistently across conforming CL implementations) are limited (by decree) as to what they're supposed to shadow.
<mrcom>
In general, "thou shalt not fool with the standard-defined stuff".
<uhuh>
I see, I'll give my functions different names then
<mrcom>
That's the way to go.
<uhuh>
Thanks! Also, quidnunc, does (ql:quickload "hu.dwim.util") result in the same errors?
<mrcom>
Also note you can only have generic _functions_. Macros are a different thing. You can still make them to different stuff depending upon the types of arguments, but its much more complicated and fragile.
<aeth>
in particular, it requires DECLAREs for the types, not being able to use any inferred information that the compiler may have
<aeth>
so it gets annoying fast
* mrcom
wonders why there hasn't been a CL implementation whose claim to fame is exposing compiler inferred types.
<aeth>
Imo on CL:+ vs another +... all rules are made to be broken when needed, and if you really want to redo +, -, /, *, etc., etc., then in practice what you're suggesting is to replace (use #:cl) with something else that is _mostly_ CL and that's fine if that's what the problem calls for imo. But if you make too many changes, people won't want to read your code.
<aeth>
uiop has a use-reexport and some other defpackage alternatives do as well. That can help.
<aeth>
It's still going to have you wind up with a ton of boilerplate
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<mrcom>
Actually... uhuh: Can you describe a bit more what you're wanting to do? It's possible there's a different idiom that does it.
<uhuh>
I'm trying to port over the robotics toolbox library available in matlab and python
<mmontone>
uhuh you can look at generic-cl just in case
<uhuh>
Basically a collection of convenience functions for 3d math and matrix operations
<aeth>
It's always linear algebra.
<uhuh>
And when the functions are called with symbols instead of numbers one can get symbolic outputs from the functions, for further analysis
<aeth>
You could try extending someone's graphics linear algebra library beyond 4x4 matrices and vec4s.
<quidnunc>
uhuh: yeah same error
<aeth>
I'm assuming that non-graphics more-than-4x4 linear algebra just partitions the matrices down into block matrices no larger than 4x4, at least on the GPU. Or at least, that's one possible approach.
<uhuh>
This one is mainly 4x4 as well actually
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<mrcom>
uhuh: So real symbolic algebra. Have you looked at the existing symbolic libraries? Even if you don't use the code they could give you pointers on API and general methods.
<quidnunc>
uhuh: Does it work for you?
<mrcom>
Maxima (fully open-source port of Macsyma) is the biggie, I think.
<uhuh>
I did see one that redefined operations like we discussed
<quidnunc>
with ultralisp
<uhuh>
quidnunc: It seemed to work for me with ultralisp. I remember getting a similar error when the line endings of git-cloned repositories I was installing were in CRLF instead of LF, but I don't think such a thing would occur in your case with a quickload
<aeth>
mrcom: does Maxima still do that Fortran recompile in its core that seems to have been written in the 90s and probably isn't as efficient as it could be on e.g. today's SBCL?
<quidnunc>
uhuh: Is ultralisp updated just now?
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<quidnunc>
is your ultralisp up to date*
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<aeth>
I wonder how feasible it would be to rewrite the Fortran parts in Maxima with modern CL numerics
<quidnunc>
(ql:update-dist "ultralisp")
<uhuh>
quidnunc: Updated and was able to install hu.dwim.util without issue here
<uhuh>
Altough I think the library is sourced from Quicklisp and not Ultralisp anyways
<quidnunc>
uhuh: thanks
<mrcom>
No idea, just passing accquaintance with Maxima. Verrrry large library. I kind of doubt, though, that SBCL would outdo barely-above-assembler Fortran for large number-crunching tasks.
<aeth>
mrcom: but it's not Fortran, it's Fortran recompiled into CL iirc... which means it probably isn't tuned for SBCL-specific optimizations that help a lot, such as type DECLAREs (I'm assuming) and the DISASSEMBLE wouldn't look as good as handwritten SBCL
<aeth>
Not to mention that I think SBCL _could_ beat old Fortran these days, by using SB-SIMD and even the GPU if latency doesn't matter.
<aeth>
(But for the GPU, how much of that actually counts as CL is arguable)
<aeth>
although perhaps a SB-SIMD backend would be the way to go
<aeth>
hmm, this is a bit hard to search for because "CL" is overloaded for "Common Lisp" and "OpenCL" (thankfully, OpenCL is mostly dead these days)
<ixelp>
Maxima -- GPL CAS based on DOE-MACSYMA / Code / [7c5a15] /src/numerical/slatec/d9aimp.lisp
<aeth>
so they're not generated every time
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<aeth>
They do have type declarations so the generated SBCL assembly may not be _that_ bad, but, idk
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<uhuh>
quidnunc: Windows, SBCL 2.4.3
<aeth>
hmm, at a glance, the problem with f2cl might be the translation of (quite a few!) globals to LETs around DEFUNs, which will turn off any top level optimizations (if there are any) because those DEFUNs are not top level and are in a closure
<mrcom>
The code's really transpiled, not just marshalling stuff for calling out to foreign libs. I like the translated tags: "label30" "label40".
<quidnunc>
uhuh: thank you
<paulapatience>
uhuh: there is also the 3d-math library
<aeth>
but I suspect this is faster than CFFI because the CFFI (probably) has an overhead and this should have none
<aeth>
paulapatience: there are about a dozen such libraries
<uhuh>
paulapatience: I am aware of it, but I was hoping to recreate the interface I am familiar with (and also have symbolic support)
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<mrcom>
Looks like it's capturing function metadata, too, which makes sense for a symbolic system.
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<ixelp>
Python array API standard — Python array API standard 2023.12 documentation
<mrcom>
Mixing single and double floats; that doesn't seem performant. (declare (type (single-float) eta) (type (double-float) z sqrtx))
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<uhuh>
aeth: I'm mainly attracted by the various possible methods of initializing transforms in the library that I'm trying to port.
<aeth>
personally, the approach I've been taking with linear algebra lately is an embedded DSL
<aeth>
which has to go through an entire IR so I can target SPIR-V (GPUs)
<uhuh>
wow, what's the syntax like?
<aeth>
exactly the same syntax as CL, no custom reader
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<younder>
Wouldn't you just use BLAS or LAPACK or CU-BLAS CU-LAPACK for NVidia GPU. Yes, old Fortran code, but I'm pretty sure SBCL won't hold a candle on the performance of these highly optimized libraries.
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<aeth>
younder: I'm writing my linear algebra DSL to use a multiple-backend IR with SPIR-V (GPU), CL scalar (CPU), and SB-SIMD (CPU) backends for my linear algebra. In principle, this approach allows substitution for (or new writing of!) faster implementations at various parts along the way, with the catch being that the results won't line up exactly when they're different implementations (but even GPU vs SIMD
<aeth>
CPU vs scalar CPU will have this issue).
<aeth>
younder: I didn't want to take this approach initially, but it does address your objections since, in principle, you can substitute out the backend and it is at "compilation" (technically, macroexpansion) time so there isn't really a cost for the genericness, which is key for math
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<aeth>
For instance, I'd expect someone could want to port the GPU stuff to CUDA rather than the graphics-oriented SPIR-V (or perhaps going SPIR-V to CUDA if that's doable).
<aeth>
In principle, everything I do is overengineered to address anticipated pedantic/niche IRC/internet objections. For instance, my macro that lets you use DEFMETHOD-style syntax for type declarations as a DEFUN alternative also allows you to generate CHECK-TYPE since people object that declarations are not always ideal since they're UB.
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