<aeth>
define a with-foo, have the with-foo use an unwind-protect, have the unwind-protect call the method CLEANUP
<aeth>
run within the with-foo
<moon-child>
they said 'I've also seen stuff using macros and unwind-protect, but they only work for "I want this resource to have its clean up code run at the end of the scope/end of the macro", and don't let me stick them in data structures access them from other scopes and have the code in the destructor then finally run when they are destroyed'
<moon-child>
but honestly that just sounds like 'I want to use resources whose lifetimes _need_ to be managed explicitly, but I don't want to bother with managing them explicitly'
<moon-child>
you won't actually solve that problem with finalizers. You can with with-macros
<mfiano>
Sounds like he was on the wrong path
<mfiano>
They specially wanted to perform resource management when an object was destroyed
<mfiano>
Which could be many cycles later with a finalizer (or not at all)
<mfiano>
specifically*
* edgar-rft
was going the wrong path, that's how he ended up here
<aeth>
moon-child: just move where you manage the lifetime, that's all
<aeth>
CLEANUP can recursively call CLEANUP until it exits the thread, and only the most relevant CLEANUP needs to directly be called inside of the WITH-FOO
<aeth>
and if it's a library instead of an application or framework with a clear object lifetime, then it's up to the caller to manage it correctly
<aeth>
What is important is that it's consistent, which is why I put CLEANUP in my utils, so (potentially) everything I write that needs that pattern can use it (since FOO:CLEANUP isn't BAR:CLEANUP).
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<aeth>
moon-child: the key is that someone, somewhere has to explicitly call CLEANUP on every resource that defines it (ideally once, but you can guard against it by setting the relevant data to NIL and testing for NIL before continuing)
<aeth>
The key is UNWIND-PROTECT can't be placed into a data structure (which was the issue), so you must have a CLEANUP method that, by convention, is called by the most appropriate UNWIND-PROTECT
<aeth>
Oh, and it must be well-named. Tbh, there probably should be a trivial-cleanup that's literally just (defgeneric cleanup (object))
<aeth>
Because everyone must be using the same CLEANUP, ideally.
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<raeda>
Has anyone tried making a macro that produces the inverse of what you wrote? I'm trying to define serialization and deserialization methods at the same time
<Bike>
inverse how?
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<raeda>
For serialization, I would encode a field and write n bytes, but for deserialization the method has to read n bytes first and then decode
<raeda>
Same for looking up data in a table and writing it vs reading data and adding it to a table
<aeth>
You could try writing a macro that does both at the same time, if that's what you mean
<aeth>
it'll probably wind up being larger than the rest of your program, though
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<raeda>
Haha, that's another tradeoff I'm considering: I'm working with ~20 structures, so if the macro is too complex, I might be better off just writing everything manually
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<moon-child>
what's in your structures? If it's just pod (symbols, lists, numbers, ...), then writing a macro to generate the structure, a serializer, and a deserializer should be pretty straightforward
<moon-child>
well, lists are problematic because of referential transparency, but if you wanted to serialize lists you were signed up for that anyway
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<aeth>
serializing lists in general? not fun. serializing things via lists? just CONS on a tag in front saying what it is to disambiguate
<beach>
PRINT and READ work fine for serializing arbitrary cyclic structures.
<moon-child>
READ is not good for untrusted input
<beach>
Oh, was that part of the requirement? I missed it. Sorry.
* beach
is still working on his morning coffee.
<moon-child>
not specified as such, but it's frequently desirable for (de)serializers, so I thought it was worth pointing out
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<peterhil>
&j #tap
<peterhil>
oops...
<edgar-rft>
nice song
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<peterhil>
I was trying to check if there is an active channel for node-tap or tap... But yeah, maybe works as a start for a song... :-)
<peterhil>
Out of curiosity – would :before, :after and :around work as a RAII pattern?
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<recordgroovy>
What started the `trivial-genericname` convention?
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<shka>
peterhil: you can use :around for something like (bt:with-lock-held (lock) (call-next-method))
<shka>
dunno if this counts because you don't actually allocate resources
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<pve>
Good morning! Is 1 considered a designator for the list (1)?
<pve>
The hyperspec page for REQUIRE says that it takes an optional pathname-list argument, but the examples only use strings.
<beach>
Look in the glossary under "list designator"
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<beach>
So, yes, a non-nil atom designates a singleton list with that atom as an element.
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<pve>
aha, found it
<pve>
beach: thanks
<beach>
Pleasure.
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<lisp123>
What is a good data object to use for collecting a set of defstructs, where I want to index / search by one of the slots (a string), such that the strings can repeat themselves
<lisp123>
My mind drawing a blank
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<lisp123>
Looks like lists are the best way?
<lisp123>
Or perhaps I could create a hash table and push duplicates as a list onto the hash table?
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<pjb>
depending on the actual number of structures.
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<pjb>
below about 5-30 structures, a simple list or a-list will be more efficient than a hash-table.
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<lisp123>
pjb: thanks, it will be in the 100s
<pjb>
then a hash-table should do.
<lisp123>
So my current plan is to build a hash table with the slot (that I will search on) as the key, and to then store all structures with that key as a list in the hash table against that key
<lisp123_>
pjb: thanks again for your hash-table code from earlier today, worked a treat and much better than the one I had in mind (if gethash, setf ..., ...)
<jmercouris>
doesn't seem useful for anyone beyond a very beginner
<jmercouris>
most of us use the CLHS and have it integrated into our Emacs
<tfb>
jmercouris: I agree, but I also think that unless there are beginners there will eventually be no experienced people
<tfb>
and the CLHS is a bit imposing for beginners (I am told)
<jmercouris>
that's true
<jmercouris>
we'll get more beginners, no worries
<jmercouris>
we have them all the time on #nyxt
<beach>
I haven't looked at that link long enough to determine whether it is good or not, but the Common Lisp HyperSpec is not meant for users, but for implementors of Common Lisp systems. So I have wanted a Common Lisp reference manual for a long time that fills this gap.
<beach>
So maybe the stuff at that link is a good start.
<jmercouris>
ah wait, I though the CLHS was for users
<jmercouris>
I thought the ANSI spec was for implementers
<jmercouris>
no wonder the CLHS appears so terse and features grammars etc
<beach>
jmercouris: Then you would not have inferred that DIGIT-CHAR-P returns NIL.
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<jmercouris>
I see, yes
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<beach>
jmercouris: the Common Lisp HyperSpec is a HTML version of the standard.
<beach>
s/a/an/ I guess.
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<beach>
jmercouris: It would be very strange if the PDF version were for implementors and the HTML version of the same text were for users.
<jmercouris>
wait a second they are the /same/ document?
<jmercouris>
I did not know this!
<jmercouris>
AH THAT IS WHY IT IS THE HYPERSPEC
<jmercouris>
it is just the HTML "hypertext"
<jmercouris>
wow, wow...
<jmercouris>
that took a while to get
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<mfiano>
beach: re: implementors, not users: not entirely true.
<beach>
OK.
<mfiano>
"It is a language specification aimed at an audience of implementors and knowledgeable programmers."
<jmercouris>
that makes it super surprising then that nobody has written a documentation for users
<jmercouris>
well I guess good enough is, good enough
<beach>
But it is woefully inadequate for a large number of users.
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<jmercouris>
agreed, but those with the knowhow don't need it
<jmercouris>
and those without the knowhow need it
<jmercouris>
there is a problem
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<jmercouris>
I would say that the cookbook partially fills this gap
<jmercouris>
I think the cookbook is a good resource
<beach>
There are several books meant for users, but there is not anything that I would call a reference manual, other than perhaps that link that I have not examined in detail yet.
<lisp123>
beach: yeah exactly, CLHS is good once you get past that initial learning hurdle, I haven't gone through this one in detail but it seems to be something that may help beginners at the initial stage
<jmercouris>
well, the cookbook is a /reference/ manual
<jackdaniel>
it is a good resource, but it is more a library catalogue (of things considered worth mentioning by the authors)
<jmercouris>
well, just trying to provide context...
<jmercouris>
the cookbook does not cover /everything/ though
<jmercouris>
as daniel pointed out
<lisp123>
jmercouris: cookbook is too detailed for quick questions, basically of the type "how to use _xxx_" - most of the time I google it and I end up either in CLHS, cookbook, tutorialpoint - for more complex items like CLOS, cookbook is great
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: I believe that it is customary to refer to people on irc by their nicknames (i.e for highlight reasons)
<mfiano>
and some things it covers is wrong or silly.
<jackdaniel>
so please stick to that convention
<lisp123>
CLHS is pretty good too, but that's because I'm passed that beginner level
<mfiano>
For a good quality user reference, the only thing that I can recommend is CLR
<jmercouris>
CLR?
<mfiano>
(if you can't swallow CLHS)
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<eta>
Common Lisp Recipes?
<mfiano>
Yes
<jackdaniel>
mfiano: fwiw Edmund Weitz was one of the early cl cookbook creators
<mfiano>
Good to know
<jackdaniel>
(and that would explain why the scope of this project and the book seems so similar)
<jackdaniel>
I'm not sure who maintains the project right now, but it certainly looks "fresh" web-wise
<jackdaniel>
and has new content
<mfiano>
I thought it was vindarel, but I could be mistaken.
<jackdaniel>
it is looking at commits
<mfiano>
I admire the effort, and it's something at least, but it could be more helpful I think.
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<mfiano>
But I should not speak. I do not have time to make it such
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<jackdaniel>
I don't know this resource well enough to tell; but it looks well and is maintained and that's a good sign that things will likely improve
<mfiano>
Too busy looking for work and trying to take care of family. Haven't even been coding much lately :/
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<jackdaniel>
mfiano: read beating the averages and write a web shop - you'll get rich according to the author :)
<mercourisj>
...
<mercourisj>
don't do that
<jackdaniel>
speaking of work, I'll be back later (writing a web shop;)
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<eta>
the cookbook has some good bits, and some dodgy bits
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<eta>
the CLOS explanation (of how before/around/after methods are run) is still my go-to reference
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<lisp123>
jackdaniel: good luck :)
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<lisp123>
This one always stumps me: Say I have a dotted list (cons 1 2), and then I want to cons ((3 . 4) (5 . 6)) to it - how does one do it?
<lisp123>
I have been using merge, but its an annoying function to use everytime as I keep having revisit its syntax
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<lisp123>
^^ in the above, I want ((3 . 4) (5 . 6) (1 . 2)) but typically I end up with ((3 . 4) (5 . 6) 1 2)
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<lisp123>
I guess I could do 2x reversals, but wondering if there is a better way
<beach>
(append ... (list (cons 1 2)))
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<lisp123>
beach: thanks! that worked
<beach>
But yes, if you are going to do that often, it is better to construct the list in reverse, and then reverse it once at the end.
<beach>
Otherwise you end up with a quadratic algorithm.
<lisp123>
like this? (reverse (acons key datum (reverse list-at-front)))
<lisp123>
or do you mean, earlier on in the code, to create it in the right way so that I don't keep reversing etc
<beach>
Well, you wouldn't do it for a single addition, but if you have a loop where, in each iteration, you could cons to the front in the loop and then call REVERSE or NREVERSE at the end.
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<pjb>
lisp123: probably you don't want to have a dotted list. but a list of cons, aka an a-list.
<jackdaniel>
but the macro foo is dynamically scoped
<lisp123>
jackdaniel: thanks, thats a cool way to do it (incidentally this quesiton came up because I wanted to split up a loop macro and collect for all but the last and then do a custom treatment of the last item)
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<nij->
Hy fellows :) I am compiling a CL system, but it fails when I quickloaded it.
<nij->
Ah indeed.. @2020-01-01 ;;=> @2019-12-31T18:00:00.000000-06:00 Lemme see how to disable it (done it a few months ago). Thank you!
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<lotuseater>
Hi, what could be a good way when I now want beside my SBCL with all other tools (quicklisp, emacs, slime) also CCL parallel in the same way? Using roswell?
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<jackdaniel>
just install ccl, you don't need roswell
<nij->
What do you mean parallel in the same way?
<jackdaniel>
add (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") in your ~/.cclinit
<jackdaniel>
and you are set I suppose
<lotuseater>
okay I'll try (running still on NixOS)
<lotuseater>
okay that would be the step when building the final application
<pjb>
lotuseater: note: the generate.lisp script will call the specific save image function for each implementation.
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<pjb>
lotuseater: there are also libraries to do that, like cl-launch or trivial-dump-core
<lotuseater>
hehe
<lotuseater>
pjb: Hello World in Haskell :D
<lotuseater>
I also thought about when "shipping out" a standalone application for also Debian or Windows, Docker could help. but I find it weird
<lotuseater>
and don't (want to) understand it
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<pjb>
Well, it's based on a virtual machine engine, eg. Virtual Box, or other, so it's all good while it works.
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<lotuseater>
yeah Docker seems to work out for the world :D
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<lotuseater>
jackdaniel: ok I did the editing, and loaded also CCL in my environment and started a new emacs instance, doesn't ask me yet, but I think just a small piece is missing ...
<shka>
docker containers makes sense but there is way to much of extra auto-magic on top of that for my liking
<shka>
like docker compose
<lotuseater>
I think it's my fault now and we must stay offtopic :) shka if you like you can explain what you mean to me in query, would like to know
<shka>
eh, i would rather go offline
<lotuseater>
oh why that?
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<shka>
long, hard working days today and yesterday
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<lotuseater>
then ok :) I appreciate your opinion
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<lotuseater>
then get some rest, food and sleep
<shka>
i will, thanks
<lotuseater>
"Eat, code, sleep, repeat" was on some CCC event on T-Shirts
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<lotuseater>
see you later, thx
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<Mrtn[m]>
What was the guys name from the Lisp channel, that we're missing here. Nels / Nils or something?