<kakuhen>
Is it a possible to signal a condition in one function and have it handled outside of a handler-case in another function?
<kakuhen>
ok it looks like I need to learn more how handler-bind and handler-case work first -- my question seems a bit ill-posed now that i think about it more
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<White_Flame>
kakuhen: handlers are generally going to be in a dynamic scope
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<White_Flame>
but when doing threaded programming, it's common to establish your handlers right at the starting point of the new thread, and cover the whole thing
<White_Flame>
(still dynamically scoped)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
'mornin
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<mayuresh>
hello. :)
<mayuresh>
good morning everybody. :)
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<mayuresh>
anyone, and "beach" especially, would you comment on the state in which code is stored within a commonlisp development environment?
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<mayuresh>
is it in source form? or is it compiled intermediate representation?
<White_Flame>
it's in fully compiled form. The textual source form is on disk in your .lisp files, and the debug info might have the read sexpr format of your code and possibly line/column/file references
<White_Flame>
(this all is common for implementations nowadays, not mandated by the language)
<mayuresh>
White_Flame: i am very new to commonlisp, so consider this a naieve question.
<White_Flame>
since no CL implementations do JIT-style recompilation, there's no need for them to retain the source except for debugging support
<mayuresh>
White_Flame: my point exactly, how do commercial commonlisp environments support debugging without distributing their source?
<White_Flame>
no problem. There's also #clschool, as this place might get you firehose-of-details response
<White_Flame>
s
<White_Flame>
what do mean by "debugging" specifically ehre?
<White_Flame>
if an error comes up, the internal function names and stack trace for its commercial internals are likely present, but there's no access to the source
<mayuresh>
okay, there's stack trace then.
<mayuresh>
good enough.
<mayuresh>
also, there's hardly anyone around on "clschool".
<mayuresh>
was there a few days back, no one even responded to my "hello".
<White_Flame>
all those names are highly tied to the notion of CL symbols & packages, which are runtime objects describing & hooking into functions & values
<White_Flame>
yeah, the freenode->libera transition has taken a bit of toll
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<mayuresh>
ah, so it was on freenode earlier! why the transition to libera?
<White_Flame>
hostile takeover of freenode, and its deletion of channels, and of the entire network (to be replaced by an empty one with the same name) afterward
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<White_Flame>
old freenode staff that bailed from the takeover started libera, and most freenode channels came here
<aeth>
new owner got power hungry and started killing channels... then k-lined tor and irccloud and possibly other servers... and then wiped literally everything and replaced it with a new network that happens to have the same domain name... one that apparently autokills you if you say the wrong words
<aeth>
basically just a domain name squat now
<aeth>
s/other servers/other services/
<White_Flame>
it's a huge rabbit hole of insanity that's a bit much to discuss here :)
<mayuresh>
okay.
<mayuresh>
i was away for quite some time, didn't know about that issue on freenode.
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<aeth>
The new owner is a former mtgox employee and apparently purchased his way to be the crown prince to the pretender to the pretender to the throne of Korea, etc.
<aeth>
The more you dig the more ridiculous it gets
<White_Flame>
for the most part, this is the same community, just in a slightly differently-named place
<mayuresh>
okay.
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<aeth>
basically, network admins should mostly be invisible unless there's spam or similar kinds of abuse
<mayuresh>
aeth: you mean network admins should purge their ego? that rarely is the case.
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<aeth>
mayuresh: there's the ideal that's rarely met to a perfect standard... and then there's the complete opposite of the ideal, where you have to suck up to someone's laughably weak claim to a vacant monarchy in order to remain present on the network, and that's not really an exaggeration
<mayuresh>
i found the "common lisp pro" mailing list, any comments about it?
<spiaggia>
mayuresh: Obviously, the commercial vendors do not distribute source code with their system, like the compiler, so the source information is very likely limited to your own application and others that you loaded from source.
<mayuresh>
White_Flame: okay. :)
<aeth>
IRC's resilient because when there's a hostile change in course, everyone can just move to a new network. Other chats, not so much.
<pjb>
mayuresh: the cl channel on freenode was probably a chilean channel ;-)
<pjb>
people could move from facebook to vk
<mayuresh>
spiaggia: yeah, i was wondering about debugging deep hierarchies like a "clos" inheritance, but with stack traces and symbol tables that seems okay to be without source.
<pjb>
spiaggia: that's why my code is Agpl3
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<spiaggia>
pjb: I see.
<pjb>
mayuresh: that's the question of debugging, and transmitting debuggin information from the compiler to the execution/debugging environment. There are file format defined, such as DWARF.
<pjb>
mayuresh: but in CL, it's integrated.
<pjb>
mayuresh: just compile with (declaim (optimize (debug 3)))
<mayuresh>
pjb: i'm not ready for that level yet. :)
<mayuresh>
just was wondering about how commercial enterprises safe guard their 'ip'.
<mayuresh>
around "common lisp".
<pjb>
They're two few, with two few customers, so that it's a big problem that need a technological solution to help.
<pjb>
mayuresh: so they just don't.
<White_Flame>
well, commercial providers of lisp software is a bit different than commercial providers of lisp dev implementations
<White_Flame>
you can just ship an executable, and it's the same as any other language in terms of privateness
<pjb>
mayuresh: but theorically, it's possible to use a CL to C compiler, and to use code protection tools.
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<pjb>
mayuresh: you could also write code protection tools directly in lisp. That'd be fun.
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<aeth>
I mean, Lisp isn't Java. Decompiling Lisp isn't going to help you too much because of the macros. You'll be able to (if anyone cared to write such a tool) get a plausible guess of what the macroexpanded version would look like, and perhaps handle the common or built-in macros, but quite a lot of code could be generated from unknown DEFMACROs
<mayuresh>
pjb: is it also theoretically possible to write a 'cl' to csharp compiler?
<pjb>
Sure.
* White_Flame
throws mayuresh into a turing taript
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<moon-child>
who has wiki editing privileges? The bocl link on that page should probably go to pjb's repo
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<mayuresh>
okay, i gotta go now, 'brb'.
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<mayuresh>
okay, i'm back.
<spiaggia>
The time and energy it took to convince mayuresh that Common Lisp doesn't require an interpreter is evidence of how deeply ingrained this misconception is.
<mayuresh>
i've decided to switch to Emacs from Vim, can't figure which to choose, SLIME or Sly, any advice?
<mayuresh>
spiaggia: it's primarily because of the Lisp lore about it's how it all began.
<spiaggia>
mayuresh: In your case, perhaps. Not so in general.
<spiaggia>
I am currently having an email exchange with my brother about this. He is a hardware person, and it started by my watching videos of a guy designing a RISC-V computer using KiCad.
<spiaggia>
It turns out, KiCad is roughly 1MLOC of C++, and I wrote to him saying that I thought it was insane to write such an application in a language without automatic memory management.
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<lisp123>
mayuresh: you will like emacs more because its also written in a (e)lisp, so there's a lot of crossover
<spiaggia>
Now, my brother can be excused for not being informed about Common Lisp and languages in general, but his pals in the software department have no such excuse. It's their job to know it, but they don't.
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<mayuresh>
lisp123: isn't (e)lisp a kind of castrated brother of scheme?
<lisp123>
spiaggia: Many programmers these days haven't even heard of Lisp (the younger ones)
<spiaggia>
lisp123: I know, and that makes them unfit for the job they are doing.
<mayuresh>
beach: thanks for hammering the interpreted commonlisp notion out of me. 😊️
<lisp123>
mayuresh: all lisps are good, got to be flexible to use what's at hand. With Emacs you get a very advanced text editing environment that you can mould for your own use - I'm writing some elisp today, and doesn't feel bad at all. I actually am starting to like how they do IF statements, but I still prefer the symmetric properties of the CL IF
<mayuresh>
lisp123: i was just reciting what i'd heard.
<mayuresh>
lisp123: i am currently preparing for foundation computer science via another lisp dialect, i.e. Scheme.
<lisp123>
spiaggia: yeah, I hope it changes. To be fair, when I was 19 I hadn't heard of Lisp at all, I wish I did - I quit CS very early in my degree and only returned now after many years - had I had lisp & emacs then, perhaps I would've stayed (they taught Java as the first course...)
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<lisp123>
mayuresh: elisp definitely has its issues, but we are stuck with what we are stuck with. cjb how good is lem?
<dsk>
mayuresh: Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp are arguably both Maclisp (nothing to do with Apple) descendants and generally closer to each other than either is to Scheme.
<mayuresh>
lisp123: Java as the first course, you are really young.
<cjb>
lisp123: I've only tried it once, so no real idea. I like emacs too much lol.
<lisp123>
cjb: :) Emacs for the win
<mayuresh>
I learnt to code using "basica" then "qbasic" then "gwbasic".
<kakuhen>
lisp123: im pretty young but one of my housemates at uni really liked lisp; i never bothered to look into it until months after using emacs as an editor
<mayuresh>
then finally got the real thing with C++.
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<mayuresh>
In between, I toyed with AutoLisp as part of my training as an engineering intern at Larsen & Toubro Ltd.
<lisp123>
kakuhen: nice! and i presume now you can't go back to anything else ;)
<kakuhen>
during the first few months i went back to texshop, though i got used to using emacs for typesetting math papers, and then i was in a dilemma of "learn elisp first or common lisp?"
<mayuresh>
frankly, going from BASIC to Lisp was a mind altering experience, quite unlike LSD.
<kakuhen>
i went elisp first but now im picking up bits of common lisp by working on a lisp project with someone
<kakuhen>
im bashing my head over conditions right now since they may or may not be appropriate for what i am trying to do right now
<mayuresh>
I meant, quite like LSD.
<aeth>
One of the first things I tried to do when I learned how to program was to write programs with programs because... well, if you're learning how to write programs, then why not write a program to write programs? Writing programs is something you're learning how to do, anyway. But it's not easy. You can get something not unlike C text-substitution macros, but strings are fragile.
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<mayuresh>
C is higher level assembly.
<mayuresh>
😂️
<lisp123>
kakuhen: what are you trying to use them for?
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<spiaggia>
mayuresh: That's often how it is used, but when it is used that way, many programs violate the specification.
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<mayuresh>
spiaggia: but C won't let you get at all the power of raw assembly either.
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<spiaggia>
Right, and especially not if you write conforming programs.
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<mayuresh>
there's some Microsoft lore that Dave Cutler thinks C is the best language for all systems programming. He's probably never heard of SPARK.
<mayuresh>
sorry to have veered off-topic.
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<kakuhen>
lisp123: it's very hard to describe the situation, but i'll attempt: I have a loop that iterates over a list of players, it handles the turn of each player in some game. The player moves along a board, but they may play a card before moving. I am trying to implement a card that will change a member variable (of the player object) for one turn only. So I naively thought of making the card change this member variable and signal a condition to revert
<kakuhen>
this member variable to its default value when the player's turn ends.
<kakuhen>
We already call a function that notifies the UI when a player's turn is finished, so I am suspecting that it may be better to instead do something else that involves this function
<spiaggia>
kakuhen: Common Lisp doesn't have "member variables". It has "slots".
<kakuhen>
sure, slots
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<lisp123>
kakuhen: got it, will have a think on my end. An interesting problem!
<kakuhen>
i first sincerely tried to learn programming with objective-c, and a lot of bad habits keep spilling over when i write lisp
<mayuresh>
There's a book called "Code Reading" but it's for C using BSD code examples, is there any such book for Common Lisp?
<mayuresh>
I think we should have been taught the art of "reading" code.
<lisp123>
Guy Steele (co-designer of Scheme and Author of Common Lisp, the Language) said that reading the Tex book was amazing
<lisp123>
so you can try that
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<mayuresh>
Tex book? Is that the on by Mr. Knuth about TeX typesetting language?
<mayuresh>
I meant "one".
<mayuresh>
I meant "one by Mr. Knuth".
<Lycurgus>
prolly
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<Lycurgus>
it's TeX normally btw
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<mayuresh>
Yes, that what I wrote; TeX typesetting language.
<Lycurgus>
more famous for the Art of Computer Programming
<mayuresh>
I don't think he's gonna finish that series, ever.
<Lycurgus>
which no doubt bled semantics of 'Art'
<Lycurgus>
he's said that he didn expect to but there is a fourth volume
<mayuresh>
knowledge is science, skill is art. He's supposedly making people skilled at programming, so he's correct, in a way.
<mayuresh>
off-topic: anyone could provide comments/opinions about "how to design programs"? It supposedly teaches you how to go from an idea to actually realising it in code. Though it uses a dialect of Lisp called Racket.
<pjb>
scheme. yes.
<pjb>
moon-child: everybody can write a wiki, that's the principal idea of a wiki!
<mayuresh>
pjb: Racket is a Scheme?
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<pjb>
mayuresh: yes, it's an IDE and scheme implementation.
<fpc>
hi!
<mayuresh>
I just installed and ran Racket. It's so huge, doesn't fit on my screen, can't even resize, the bottom section is unavailable. Golly, what were they thinking when they designed it.
<mayuresh>
I bet they designed the UI for students in the US who have access to large destop display screens.
<beach>
Hello fpc.
<mayuresh>
ah, yes, hello fpc. 😊️
<mayuresh>
beach: how come you are unusually silent today?
<mayuresh>
hope you are in good health and spirits.
<beach>
mayuresh: Not silent at all. Learn a bit Italian!
<beach>
fpc: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<beach>
mayuresh: "spiaggia" is Italian for "beach".
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<mayuresh>
beach: ah, okay, poor me, I'm from the land of snake charmers, we only learn upto Sanskrit. 😆️
<cjb>
mayuresh: what are you using to input emoji?
<mayuresh>
cjb: I am using a GUI IRC client under Ubuntu. It's called "Polari".
<beach>
mayuresh: Fair enough. Italian would then not be high priority.
<cjb>
mayuresh: for some reason a combining character is added to the end of each emoji you input.
<mayuresh>
cjb: hmnn, I think I'll stick with regular smilies. >:^)
<cjb>
also if you are using Ubuntu, GNOME Wayland doesn't properly tell the clients what size window is needed. i.e. each program must write GNOME specific code, so that might be the reason DrRacket didn't size right. (just a guess)
<mayuresh>
I did something crazy, I made the window go full-screen and then manually resized it to the dimensions suitable for my tastes.
<cjb>
👍
<mayuresh>
cjb: how did you send that emoji? from the keyboard? what was the key combination?
<mayuresh>
golly, you're using some kind of IRC client built-in to Emacs!
<mayuresh>
That's rather amazing.
<cjb>
in emacs you can also use C-x 8 RET <type exact name of emoji> RET, or if you don't like typing the exact name of the emoji you can use fido-mode everywhere
<beach>
mayuresh: Of course! How would you otherwise get your usual editing commands, your abbrev processor, your spell checker, etc?
<cjb>
mayuresh: Circe is a good IRC client, has SASL and all :)
<White_Flame>
mayuresh: emacs is an impressive operating system, but too bad its editor sucks
<mayuresh>
White_Flame: that was harsh. :-D
<White_Flame>
it's an old meme ;)
<cjb>
funny thing is I switched to emacs to use ERC from irssi, and stayed for the editor.
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<luis>
Fun fact: the book that popularized the word "meme" was published in the same year as the original EMACS, 1976.
<moon-child>
_the selfish gene_?
<luis>
Yes.
<loke[m]>
I want to know who popularised the pronunciation meem
<White_Flame>
it was supposed to sound like "gene" from the start
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<luis>
as in "mind gene", IIRC
<loke[m]>
English spelling. It's the worst
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<luis>
Or is it related related to memetics? I forget.
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<mayuresh>
luis: yes it is.
<White_Flame>
it coined "memetics" and "meme" as analogs to "genetics" and "gene"
<mayuresh>
just that like genes, memes are forwarded by intent rather than as patterns.
<loke[m]>
What examples did he give from 76?
<loke[m]>
I've seen some from the 1800's
<loke[m]>
Actually, if I remember correctly, OK was a meme
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<Krystof>
the cultural phenomenon of an extra "s" in the chorus of Thomas Arne's "Rule, Britannia" is a late-20th century cultural meme that I think is an example in the Selfish Gene
<loke[m]>
So an intentional misspelling, just like OK back then, and also common in modern memes?
<Krystof>
not a misspelling in this instance
<Krystof>
it comes about because of mass broadcast of the Last Night of the Proms, which every year performs Rule, Britannia with audience participation, along with the strong salience of sibilants
<Krystof>
the point is that it only takes a few people in the audience to make a mistake and add an "s" for everyone to hear it and assume that that's how it's meant to go
<Krystof>
plus the meaning fits into lazy nationalism. "Britannia, rule the waves!" (original, imperative) vs "Britannia rules the waves" (mutation, means "Britain is top nation")
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<mayuresh>
okay, gotta go now, lunch time.
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<fpc>
beach: Yes, new here.
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<beach>
fpc: Great! Welcome! What brings you here?
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<fpc>
beach: thanks for the welcome. I am doing common lisp programming these days so I thought I will hang out here. I might learn more from the conversations here.
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<beach>
Sounds good.
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<mayuresh>
hello. :-)
<mayuresh>
[off-topic] there's a guy who's usually in at a later time than now, who works primarily on Scheme but still hangs out around here. Anyone remembers his handle?
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<jdz>
mayuresh: Fare?
<mayuresh>
jdz: might be, but I just can't remember his handle.
<mayuresh>
jdz: he's usually in around 7~8 hours from now.
<mayuresh>
jdz: so must be from the US.
<shka>
hmmm
<shka>
i need my lisp process to use as little memory as possible
<shka>
how should i approach this?
<jdz>
shka: Don't cons?
<mayuresh>
[off-topic] anyone here uses "irssi" as an IRC client?
<jdz>
shka: I have this small program that I run with 'SBCL --dynamic-space-size 32', and memory usage is 23336 RES and 22372 SHR.
<jdz>
So basically the memory usage is 1MB.
<shka>
hmm
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<shka>
jdz: you don't use any libraries?
<shka>
my problem is that after loading all the stuff i usually use i am already at 200 megabytes
<shka>
i will try to investigate this
<shka>
jdz: thanks for the answer
<jdz>
shka: If you compile your own image (without core compression) SBCL will map the file directly, which will count towards "shared" memory, which does not really count.
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<shka>
oh, i will check the manual!
<shka>
jdz: thanks!
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<jdz>
You have to explicitly ask for core compression.
<shka>
yeah, that part i know
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<mayuresh>
gotta go now.
<mayuresh>
bye.
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<ecraven>
is anyone here involved in SLIME/SWANK? I'd be interested in understanding the rationale why *nested* presentations seem to be unsupported. is this just because no-one ever implemented them, or is there a deeper reason?
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<lisp123>
Is there a key shortcut to cycle through the functions that call a function (e.g. i have (defun rule-the-world) and if I enter this command whilst the cursor is on rule-the-world, it will move to first call of rule-world in the current file, and then pressing it again will go to the next call, etc, in a cycle
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<loke[m]>
lisp123 C-c C-w c, if I'm not mistaken.
<loke[m]>
The function is slime-who-calls, I think
<lisp123>
loke[m]: thanks, function is there but its returning "no references found" so I need to investigate further
<lisp123>
i imagine I need to load the lisp files into the CL interpreter, so will test it out later
<lisp123>
should work once I fix it up
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<Krystof>
ecraven: my guess would be: implementing presentations as in slime can be done without using internals, because slime knows the object being printed (it's a return value) and can measure the text extent of the printing
<Krystof>
to support nested presentations, slime would need to be able to do that measuring of the text extent of printing of the nested objects
<Krystof>
that said, look at contrib/slime-presentation-streams.el / contrib/swank-presentation-streams.lisp
<ecraven>
thanks, that looks interesting
<ecraven>
hm.. just need to find out how to actually use it ;)
<ecraven>
for example, I'd like '(1 2 3) to be 4 presentations, one for the list, and one for each integer
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<Krystof>
I don't think swank-presentation-streams.lisp supports that out-of-the-box -- it would have to override the lisp's printing routine
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<Krystof>
you could do something like (set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (presenting-object o (write o :stream s :pretty nil))))
<Krystof>
but, that only works for numbers, not arbitrary types
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<Krystof>
alternatively, hack on clim :)
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<ecraven>
yea, not ready to let emacs go yet :-/
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<jackdaniel>
ecraven: lukego hacks a clim backend for emacs, see draft pull requests in mcclim repository
<jackdaniel>
afaik it is something you have in mind (that is - focusing only on presentations and streams i.e not application frames and such)
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<ecraven>
don't get me wrong, I'd gladly use something better instead of Emacs, but I haven't found anything that can replace *all* of my emacs usage so far :-/
* jackdaniel
gets ecraven wrong
<ecraven>
to me, Emacs is just the least bad option :-/
<ecraven>
(I've been playing around with Open Genera and Medley recently, an environment like *that* would be great)
<jackdaniel>
either way, check out that pr, it doesn't require you to leave emacs
<ecraven>
thanks ;)
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<shka>
how can i install x86 version of sbcl using roswell?
<hendursa1>
I just discovered formulador and I must say, it's simply beautiful! A pity it's not maintained anymore.
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<hendursa1>
ASCII art is the best, so nostalgic
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<Josh_2>
Helloo
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<jcowan>
ecraven: Start coming to Interlisp meetings and press for the upgrade to CL that's needed to make it ANSI
<ecraven>
I was at 5 or so meetings, but real life interfered ;)
<ecraven>
but good point, it's monday.. I'll try to make it tonight
<ecraven>
same time and place as usual?
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<jcowan>
probably no mtg for Memorial Day hooliday
<ecraven>
ah, so next monday?
<jcowan>
yes
<ecraven>
thanks ;)
<ecraven>
so back to debugging promtail on that kubernetes cluster :-/ sometimes I wonder whether we haven't created way too high a tower of abstraction :-/
<jcowan>
It's not so much that, it's the failure to make all levels visible when de bugging.
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<ecraven>
well, there's plenty of things visible, it's just nigh impossible to filter... and things work fine in a test setup, but not in the actual environment... and it's very hard to tell *what* exactly is different...
<jcowan>
"All problems are config problems." --me, about once a week
<ecraven>
that seems like it applies to 99% of the problems ;)
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<Josh_2>
I swapped from postgres to bknr now I think I need to go back to postgres oops
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<jackdaniel>
"Let's put all program logic into configuration files so instead of a programming language we can deal with the xml spaghetti"
<Josh_2>
sounds like a nightmare
<jackdaniel>
sounds like a natural evolution process for programs :)
<jcowan>
Nothing wrong with config files: putting them in XML is an abuse of XML, and abusus non tollit usum. It was designed for display-independent processable human-readable documentation, so almost all use *is* abuse.
<edgar-rft>
Let's all speak X-Mas Language :-)
<Josh_2>
Few months before thats required
<jcowan>
Anyway, X-Mas isn't a language, it's an improved graphics server.
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<mayuresh>
hello. :)
<mayuresh>
x-mas song for the x-mas language;
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<mayuresh>
ploughing through the snow, on a one horse slopping sleigh, joker's on the go, laughing all the way, the bells on penguin's ring, make riddler wanna fight, two-face wants to flip a coin and sing this song tonight, hey, jingle bells, batman smells, robin laid an egg, the batmobile lost a wheel and the joker got away, hey, jingle bells ...
<mayuresh>
>:^)
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<mayuresh>
is "fare" around at the moment?
<jackdaniel>
no. he decided that gerbil scheme better suits his tastes
<mayuresh>
sad.
<mayuresh>
any ideas about his identity?
<mayuresh>
would love to communicate with him via email.
<jackdaniel>
you may look it up in the internet; he doesn't hide it. that said please keep in mind that offtopic would be more appreciated on channels like #lispcafe
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<mayuresh>
okay.
<mayuresh>
jackdaniel: would you at least tell me what i should google for?