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<Mrtn[m]>
phoe You know that char pinged out, right? I'm not sure if per got thy explanation, before that happened.
<char>
I saw, thanks. I think I actually prefer as-> I find it more readable to call the previous form something like "it" thank the pronounceable <>
<char>
s/pronounceable/unpronounceable
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<char>
good morning
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<contrapunctus>
One might think of <> as a "hole" 🤔
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<lad>
I have a function that takes a list "(defun p (l) (dolist (x l) (solfa x)))" that i use (p '(DO ME SO)) ... now I want to write a macro so I don't have to use list syntax: (mymacro DO ME SO). Any hints?
<moon-child>
it's generally considered unidiomatic to use a macro where a function would do
<moon-child>
mfiano: want &rest rather than &body there, I think
<mfiano>
No you don't
<mfiano>
It doesn't matter
<mfiano>
&body is a convenience to convey indentation only
<moon-child>
I mean in terms of semantics it's the same, but for conveying intent
<moon-child>
yeah
<mfiano>
In this case a function will not do.
<moon-child>
the intent here is that the remainder of the parameters are a list; not that they are the expressions of a body, so &rest is apppropriate
<moon-child>
mfiano: a function will not do if you want to write (my-function do me so). It's more idiomatic to write a function and write (my-function '(do me so))
<mfiano>
He specifically wants a syntactic abstraction over his function that delays evaluation, a perfect use for a macro..
<lad>
Okay.... this is the macro: (defmacro mymacro (&rest body) (alexandria:with-gensyms (x) `(dolist (,x (list ,@body)) (solfa ,x))))
<lad>
this is the call: (mymacro 'DO 'ME 'SO)
<lad>
I guess I have to pass in symbols still,
<mfiano>
That is not the call you originally desired.
<lad>
true, thx mfiano
<lad>
maybe its not possible
<mfiano>
It certainly is. But I would back up to moon-child's question.
<mfiano>
Why do you want this?
<mfiano>
lad: If you want the elements to not be evaluated, change the (,x (list ,@body)( to (,x ',body)
<lad>
mfiano, I was just wanting to make it easier to type really
<mfiano>
Or I suppose you could unroll it: (defmacro mymacro (&body body) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `(solfa ',x)) body)))
<lad>
sort of a DSL idea
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<mfiano>
err typo, "...@body))", not "...@body)(" in the loop version
<mfiano>
lad: The latter version unrolls it to multiple calls to SOLFA, eliminating the runtime iteration.
<moon-child>
depending on what you're doing, it might make more sense to hoist all the notes into a single list and do some processing of it; then you would only have to quote once
<lad>
i guess my question is really, how to write a macro that takes arbitrary atoms/symbols that aren't defined
<mfiano>
by using &rest, same as a defun.
<mfiano>
or &body, which is essentially the same thing
<lad>
(foo '1 2 hi) ; The variable HI is unbound
<lad>
whether i use &body or &rest
<mfiano>
How am I supposed to know what the definition of foo is?
<lad>
(defmacro foo (&body body) `(list ,@body))
<lad>
sorry, thought i pasted it
<mfiano>
Well sure, you are unquoting it
<mfiano>
,@ is unquote/splice
<White_Flame>
are you just reimplementing a form of (list 1 2 3) but with unevaluated arguments?
<mfiano>
I would suggest reading a book on macro basics. These are extremely fundamental concepts
<White_Flame>
or is there another purpose for this macro?
<lad>
Just want a macro that takes unevaluated arguments White_Flame
<White_Flame>
macros by default take source code, and return source code. They do not evaluate their arguments, unless you generate output source code which would evaluate them
<White_Flame>
the only real difference now past that is if you want them as a literal list, or as a runtime-generated list
<White_Flame>
a literal list is easy, but you shouldn't do that if you want to modify it
<White_Flame>
eg (foo a b c) => '(a b c)
<White_Flame>
where (foo a b c) => (list 'a 'b 'c) would generate one each time the body is run
<lad>
White_Flame, please supply the macro that returns that
<White_Flame>
you have been given the first
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<mfiano>
I gave one solution earlier: (list ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `',x) body)
<mfiano>
with some more closing parens :) (untested)
<White_Flame>
yeah, I was just rewriting that, so yeah
<White_Flame>
I sometimes use `(quote ,x) which might be clearer than `',x if the nesting of quotes is getting really hairy, too
<mfiano>
If I am ever nesting quotes I stop and break my macro up into functions.
<mfiano>
Really dislike large unintelligible macros, so usually break them up regardless :)
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<mfiano>
Question: I have seen this requested at least a few times on various platforms over the last year alone, so I assume this would be at least somewhat welcome: Would any of you real-time chat denizens appreciate a centralized, synchronous, threaded messaging platform of some sort, such as a Web forum (assuming it had users)?
<White_Flame>
I think reddit basically coveres the non-realtime part
<White_Flame>
are there any other realtime chat lisp communities out there?
<White_Flame>
there's probably some discord or matrix or whatever lisp group out there too, but not big enough to be mentioned on cliki
<mfiano>
Realtime? Discord has a rather large Lisp server, but I would rather not partake in Discord.
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<mfiano>
Reddit has its issues
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<kakuhen>
yeah I don't like Discord either, and iirc the Lisp server isn't just common lisp
<mfiano>
I was specifically asking about non-real-time, though, with less emphasis on social networking features such as likes/votes, and more about discoverability.
* mfiano
reminisces of a time when the Internet was a tool for researchers, not the state it is in today :/
<kakuhen>
it still *is* a tool for researchers, but that's offtopic now.
<mfiano>
Yeah, if you don't want to sift through piles of irrelevance
<mfiano>
or if you *do*
<White_Flame>
is comp.lang.lisp still alive in any meaningful sense?
<mfiano>
Barely, but more spam than is worthwhile
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<kathe>
hello. :)
<minion>
kathe, memo from phoe: yes, I am working on clr2; thank you!
<kathe>
is "beach" the french guy around here at the moment?
<beach>
I am here.
<beach>
But I am not French.
<Inline>
lol
<Inline>
morning beach
<Inline>
morning all
<beach>
Hey Inline.
<Inline>
just woke up, coffee
<kathe>
beach, you live in bordeaux, right?
<beach>
I do, yes.
<kathe>
morning inline. :)
<kathe>
beach, where are your roots?
<Inline>
morning kathe, i'm soo groggy bah
<beach>
kathe: Unimportant. I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents.
<kathe>
beach, wow, that's something. i've only lived in 2 cities outside mine in my own country.
<kathe>
:)
<kathe>
inline, can you share why you prefer coffee over tea?
<beach>
But I am off topic. So let's get back to Common Lisp.
<kathe>
beach, yeah, true that.
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<kathe>
hi pjb.
<Inline>
the effect is more instant kathe, however shortlived compared to tea of course
<kathe>
inline, tea also has a calming effect on the nervous system due to tanin.
<Inline>
right
<beach>
kathe: If you greet everyone coming in here without uttering anything, then the channel log will be filed with your greetings. At least limit yourself to people who start uttering something themselves.
<beach>
Unless of course you want to ask them something.
<kathe>
beach, agreed. for channel log's sake.
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<kathe>
are there any commonlisp areas on jabber?
<pjb>
kathe: foremost because that person might be asleep at his keyboard…
<pjb>
Hi!
<kathe>
pjb, hi. :)
<pjb>
Well, we're on irc. That's for a reason…
<kathe>
would someone who's moved from slime to sly comment on why?
<pjb>
You're already lucky for some of us to _know_ what jabber is. (I wouldn't even know how to connect to it!)
<kathe>
pjb, use a jabber client to jabber.org
<contrapunctus>
kathe: hey
<kathe>
contrapunctus, hi. :)
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<contrapunctus>
kathe: I try to nurture xmpp:lisp@conference.a3.pm?join
<kathe>
sure.
<kathe>
getting a jabber client for my ubuntu install right away.
<Inline>
how is jabber different ?
<contrapunctus>
It's got around 10~20 folks, regular but not very heavy traffic. And it's for all dialects.
<kathe>
cool. hope those 10~20 people don't fight about the superiority of dialects.
<contrapunctus>
Inline: from IRC? Federated, multiline messages, message correction, built in file transfer, no netsplits, no loss of messages on loss of connection, message styling...
<contrapunctus>
kathe: haha, not really.
<moon-child>
'no netsplits' so no redundancy either?
<contrapunctus>
moon-child: most XMPP room implementations are single server, yes. There are extensions for distributed/federated rooms, but they are made to cut down network traffic rather than for fault tolerance, AFAIU.
<kathe>
contrapunctus: if you know, is "empathy" a good jabber client under ubuntu?
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<kathe>
okay, i gotta go now, emacs practice hour on in 7 minutes.
<kathe>
nice chatting with you, and sorry for veering off-topic so frequently.
<kathe>
bfn.
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<contrapunctus>
kathe: I use Gajim on desktop (and Conversations on the phone), and I collaborate on a fork of jabber.el, an Emacs client. I haven't tried Empathy, can't say. Does it say it compiles with any XMPP Compliance Suites?
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<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: "empathy" is proprietary, hardly any details available, also not installing.
<mayureshkathe>
i'm going away for sure now.
<mayureshkathe>
bye
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<contrapunctus>
(...but...it's GPL?)
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<Nilby>
Does anyone know how to get asdf to put compiler output in the correct place when running an image as a different user than it was dumped as?
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<Lycurgus>
sudo it?
* Lycurgus
has yet to select a pkg that makes list path translation palatable, facile
<Posterdati>
hi
<Lycurgus>
yello Posterdati . fad i presume
<Lycurgus>
(i.e the pkg of choice to be, perhaps later today)
<Nilby>
Lycurgus: I know sudo !! is a bit of a meme, but among the many problems is that the user may not exist on the system
<Posterdati>
Lycurgus: ?
<Lycurgus>
Posterdati, i mixed replies to you and Nilby
<Posterdati>
Lycurgus: nice!
<Posterdati>
Lycurgus: I take only the subseq that involves me!
<Lycurgus>
:)
<Lycurgus>
*lisp path translation
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<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: thanks. I searched on GitHub with the language filter and still missed it, apparently. 😅
<Josh_2>
The matrix API hasn't really changed so that should still work
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<Gnuxie>
it will still work just the same as it did when it was created, however it is out of date in the sense that it doesn't cover any new endpoints and also the generator probably won't work anymore
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<Gnuxie>
the generator itself is of a bad design (I was still new to things) and writes to files instead of just using a generator in a macro and that's what I assume Josh_2 means by not being able to understand it, which is fair
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<Josh_2>
I want to execute some tasks in the background and I dont care about the results, what should I use? I dont want to spawn new threads because that would defeat the point of doing this
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<Josh_2>
I have lots of parts of my program that can just execute on their own, send their results to the correct api and be done, they change no state and their results aren't used
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<_death>
what if the server is unavailable or responds with an error
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<Josh_2>
doesn't matter
<_death>
and why would threads defeat the purpose
<Josh_2>
no no, creating new threads on the fly would defeat the purpose
<_death>
I am asking why
<Josh_2>
and that would be because of the overhead of creation, having a pool would work
<_death>
ok.. so lparallel may work
<_death>
you can use futures to launch and forget
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<Josh_2>
maybe I am thinking about this all wrong
<Josh_2>
i've got a few bits of processing that can take a little while and this will freeze my main program loop
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<char>
Josh_2: coroutines?
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<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: is your bot's source not yet published anywhere?
<Josh_2>
nope
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<Josh_2>
What you tryna do on matrix?
<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: I'm thinking of making an XMPP-Matrix bridge.
<Josh_2>
ah
<Josh_2>
Did you check if a bridge already exists? If not then you dont want the client-server API instead you want to look at the application services API, that is how bridges like telegram and discord are implemented
<contrapunctus>
Ah, I see. Thanks. The existing bridge is an atrocity.
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<eta>
contrapunctus, you might be interested in my matrix-fuckery project :P
<contrapunctus>
eta: you have one of those too? 😀
<eta>
contrapunctus, I'm working on implementing a deliberately terrible Matrix "homeserver"
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<eta>
that is only compliant enough to implement an XMPP<->Matrix bridge
<eta>
(it defers to other matrix servers in the room to do things like state resolution)
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<contrapunctus>
eta: whoa.
<eta>
which happens to be written in CL :p
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<lisp123>
Does Common Lisp in Emacs (e.g. via SLIME) have an equivalent to 'describe-function' which works for elisp (and also many forms that are common to both cl and elisp)?
<lisp123>
It's better than the Hyperspec because its easier to follow for beginners
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<MichaelRaskin>
Does plain DESCRIBE count?
<scymtym>
you can use SLIME-DESCRIBE-FUNCTION or SLIME-DESCRIBE-SYMBOL but the provided information will depend on your (Common Lisp) implementation. a documentation string, if there is one, will usually be displayed. but especially for functions whose name is in the CL package, those documentation strings are usually much worse than the description in the Hyperspec
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<lisp123>
symtym: I tried it, but its not particularly helpful (well for me it is but not for a beginner)
<loke[m]>
Is it just me, or is static-vectors in QL broken in recent SBCL?
<lisp123>
MichaelRaskin: how to use describe?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Yeah, some macros migh not have more (for some things there is more documentation)
<scymtym>
implementation specification extensions tend to have more serious documentation strings. in SBCL, this is true for TRACE and SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM, for example
<lisp123>
scymtym & MichaelRaskin, thanks for the info
<MichaelRaskin>
Things like defun are probably best explained in tutorial-style texts than in anything reference-style
<lisp123>
I agree
<lisp123>
I am now thinking of writing a tutorial-style guide for keywords // common packages (e.g. for hunchentoot, quicklisp, etc.), similar to describe-function
<MichaelRaskin>
(Also as in, tutorials exist, references are oriented on those who find tutorials insufficiently detailed)
<MichaelRaskin>
Ohh.
<lisp123>
Something that covers the most basic use, not everything (for that, there is references)
<lisp123>
but as it stands now, one would have to google each term, which is an additional step
<lisp123>
most common* use
<MichaelRaskin>
I am pretty sure that «describe» uses whatever documentation strings are attached to various uses of a symbol
<lisp123>
how do you access describe? I didn't find it when I did M-x describe
<MichaelRaskin>
It's a Common Lisp function Common-Lisp:Describe
<lisp123>
ah
<lisp123>
thanks for that
<scymtym>
you can evaluate (describe 'SYMBOL) in common lisp or use M-x slime-describe-symbol RET SYMBOL RET
<MichaelRaskin>
SLIME-DESCRIBE-SYMBOL probably uses it
<MichaelRaskin>
(I am not sure as I don't use Emacs)
<lisp123>
thanks - seems to work
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<hendursaga>
describe and inspect are really cool
<hendursaga>
I especially appreciate the numbered list navigation for inspect
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<phoe>
minion: memo for char: <> is often called a diamond so it becomes pronunciable
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell char when he/she/it next speaks.
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<clhelp>
Hey, can I get some help with the version of with-gensyms in this snippet: https://0x0.st/-f26.txt