#commonlisp on 2021-06-03 — irc logs at libera.irclog.whitequark.org

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00:27 <Lycurgus> phoe, I am confused about a special variable appearing in ccl-compat, that doesn't seem to be in ccl which makes me think I don't

00:27 <Lycurgus> understand what the pkg is for, in ccl or outside it

00:29 <Lycurgus> the default would seem to be for other lisps, nominally but maybe it restores things no longer in current ccl?

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00:36 <Lycurgus> ah, just found the variable in current ccl

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00:53 <dieggsy> what's the smallest resolution current-time i can get with SBCL

00:53 <dieggsy> (get-universal-time) is seconds, is there a.. micro/nano equivalent?

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00:57 <dieggsy> ah, sb-ext:get-time-of-day

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03:03 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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03:58 <phadthai> good night too :)

03:59 <phadthai> well, AM in one minute

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12:15 <ldb> good evening

12:16 <Inline> good evening to ya too

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13:44 <jmercouris> Good evening as well

13:46 <beach> Hello jmercouris.

13:47 <jmercouris> Hello beach

13:47 <tux0r> hello you all

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13:59 <shka> hi all

13:59 <shka> alternative to CL-SVG anyone?

14:00 <tux0r> what do you want to achieve?

14:05 <cage> hello everyone!

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14:25 <beach> Hello cage.

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14:44 <cage> i have read the huge article about the unit testing libraries published some days ago and i found it very inspiring, thanks to the author (if they are here in the channel :-))!

14:48 <ldb> where can I find that article?

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14:53 <luis> ldb: https://sabracrolleton.github.io/testing-framework

14:53 <ldb> luis: thank you

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14:55 <beach> Am I the only one thinking that the reason there are so many testing frameworks is that there is no good abstraction for describing what a testing framework is supposed to do?

14:56 <_death> I think the reason is the same as the reason for many toy Lisps.. they're not too hard to make

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14:56 <ldb> that's heavily affected by personal tastes, I'm afraid

14:56 <beach> _death: You may be right.

14:56 <Gnuxie> yeah, people want different things

14:58 <aeth> that being said, I think most people just use fiveam

14:58 <pjb> beach: one problem is that testing may need to work in different environments. A framework designed to test purely algorithmic code won't be adapted when you want to test the sending and reception of emails.

14:58 <aeth> fiveam definitely is still the most mature, and has a lot of features not frequently replicated, like random testing

14:58 <beach> So what ldb, Gnuxie, and pjb say, supports my hypothesis.

14:58 <aeth> I try different test suites out all of the time and always come back to fiveam

15:00 <beach> ... i.e., that there is no such thing as a "testing framework". There is "testing framework for x", "testing framework that works like y", etc.

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15:25 <fe[nl]ix> aeth: I will soon have more time for open-source Lisp

15:26 <fe[nl]ix> so I will go over the test framework comparison and see what improvements I can make to Fiveam

15:26 <fe[nl]ix> and feel free to open issue for feature requests

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15:27 <beach> fe[nl]ix: That's great! What changed?

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15:28 <fe[nl]ix> I'm on the QPX team, so I'll be doing CL a lot more

15:28 <beach> I see.

15:28 <fe[nl]ix> switched team a month ago

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15:49 <lukego> fe[nl]ix: hey that's awesome, congrats :)

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15:52 <fe[nl]ix> lukego: thanks

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16:02 <cage> fe[nl]ix: great news, thanks!

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16:04 <Josh_2> Very cool fe[nl]ix

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16:42 <shka> tux0r: draw some SVG ;-)

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21:03 <nature> Is there a standard for persisting object?

21:04 <nature> I mean a standard way of doing it

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21:11 <nature> In the lisp cookbook it speaks about Mito and I read somewhere else about Elephant

21:11 <jcowan> Blindly persisting all of an object's slots is probably not a good idea

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21:12 <mfiano> Everything is an object. Do you mean standard-object?

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21:12 <nature> I meant classes that I defined, sorry I should've been more precise

21:12 <aeth> one way to do it is to store it into the FASL (I think?) with MAKE-LOAD-FORM

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21:13 <aeth> or you could serialize it into a readable format (e.g. #(1 2 3) or anything by a struct like #S(...))

21:13 <aeth> etc

21:13 <aeth> lots and lots and lots of different possibilities

21:15 <nature> Oh I am sure of it, I was mostly wondering if there is a preferred way by the community, when you defined a class and store a list of instances, how would you persist them?

21:15 <mfiano> It really depends on your use case. There is no best solution here. I like to use cl-conspack when I can, but sometimes just dumping the object in the compiled code and restoring it with MAKE-LOAD-FORM is fine.

21:16 <aeth> this is a situation without a general solution

21:16 <aeth> (although, obviously, conspack can be used that way)

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21:19 <phoe> "persisting" is not a well-defined term

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21:19 <mfiano> That too

21:19 <phoe> and neither is "object", in context of persistence

21:19 <phoe> especially with regard to possible circular references

21:19 <mfiano> and Mito and other ORMs are orthogonal concepts, and almost never what you want, if you understand relational theory anyway :p

21:19 <aeth> the most general solution (afaik, conspack) isn't going to be the most correct, most efficient, or most secure

21:20 <aeth> depending on your specific task

21:20 <aeth> of course, the most correct solution is to always write serialization yourself, which might not be worth it, either

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21:31 <nature> okok thanks for the few pointers

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22:23 <dieggsy1> does anyone have thoughts on "artificial intelligence programming" by charniak et al? i assume it's decently outdated but a colleague told me about it and i picked up a used copy cause i thought it might be a fun read

22:23 <dieggsy1> their code font is nice to look at lol

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22:35 <dieggsy1> oh man, i think it was published before CLOS was part of the standard?

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22:38 <pl> i think so

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22:39 <dieggsy1> should be interesting heh

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