<Josh_2>
I tried nyxt on Gentoo but could never get it working, now I'm on devuan I am going to try again
taiju has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
taiju has joined #commonlisp
Bike has joined #commonlisp
<Josh_2>
Just tried to watch a youtube video in Nyxt, getting some serious screen tear :(
<Josh_2>
and when I scroll my whole screen is going red :(
tyson2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
montxero has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
akoana has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
mindCrime has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Josh_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Nilby>
Good morning
<beach>
Still, that video about Nyxt is good publicity for Common Lisp.
Lord_of_Life_ has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
I think I need to try Nyxt one of these days.
<beach>
I was put off by the fact that the "web engine" is not written in Common Lisp, but then I use Firfox where nothing is written in Common Lisp.
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
<moon-child>
there was a nascent html implementation in cl at one point that could render very simple webpages. Making something complete is a monstrous undertaking
<beach>
Right.
<beach>
gilberth wrote a renderer for HTML to be used with his Closure browser.
dieggsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Gnuxie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
katco has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
akanouras has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
loke[m] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
loke[m] has joined #commonlisp
<hirez>
tbh I think writing an html parser in any language is a massive undertaking moon-child
Gnuxie has joined #commonlisp
akanouras has joined #commonlisp
katco has joined #commonlisp
dieggsy has joined #commonlisp
<hirez>
at least one that works _well_, lol
<moon-child>
depends on what you mean by 'parser'. Creating a tree based on the xml-ish-kinda not difficult, and the algorithm is described in fairly minute detail by the standard. Actually doing layout is the main challenge
<beach>
Standards have become very complicated. I forget which Plan 9 developer it was who wrote that they spent a significant part of the effort just on implementing standards.
<hirez>
yeah that is what I meant, sorry. Parsing is a well known problem. Going from html -> rendered page is the difficult part.
<Nilby>
html parser isnt too hard, but an html render, working with javascript & css, is quite hard.
<moon-child>
I think javascript is actually probably the easiest part
<moon-child>
(well, modulo quirks mode)
<hirez>
*shock*
<hirez>
I guess js probably isnt too bad because its so shoot from the hip :P
<hirez>
It is impressive to me that javascript is so deeply embedded in web that writing X-to-JS compilers is actually more practical than just adopting a language that isn't awful.
<moon-child>
heh
mindCrime has joined #commonlisp
<blihp>
in sbcl I had a quicklisp package hang while loading (heap oom) so I restarted emacs/slime and now when I attempt to load the package I'm getting a 'vicious metacircle' error
<blihp>
any suggestions on how to best clean this up?
<beach>
You can try to remove the FASLs in the cache.
<beach>
I think Clasp was created because it is extremely hard to use C++ from Common Lisp without it.
<seok>
Clasp doesn't mention support for windows sadly : (
<beach>
Then you are left with "extremely hard".
<seok>
That is sad. I'm not ready for "extremely hard"
<beach>
What is really sad is that C++ is used for real stuff.
<seok>
Indeed that is very sad
<moon-child>
most libraries, even those that are written in c++, expose a c api. And I think it is broadly reasonable to write a library whose interface is in c
<moon-child>
opencv seems to be an exception--the docs claim that it had a c api, but that it was deprecated in favour of the c++ api
<moon-child>
linux has problems, no doubt--and I run freebsd where I can, which isn't perfect either--but in a practical sense, I find windows is intolerable in a way that other (still-flawed) OSes are not
<beach>
Just to be clear. I don't hate Windows. I have never really used it. And I don't think Unix/Linux is that great either.
hendursa1 has joined #commonlisp
<moon-child>
in a theoretical sense, windows apis are frequently cleaner than their unix counterparts. Take overcommit, for instance, which windows solves quite simply by making reserve and commit separate user-level operations
<hirez>
I dont like the telemetry. But since Ubuntu is taking that route as well we probably have another ~5 years before major linux distributions realize always on OSes is the "future"
<hirez>
esp. with microsoft's penetration into OSS
<hirez>
(vscode is just monitoring software skinned to look like a text editor)
hendursaga has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<hirez>
this can all be solved by just switching to mezzano clearly.
<aeth>
or buy Symbolics... the brand must be cheap, it hasn't done anything for decades
<moon-child>
can run genera in an emulator. Ditto interlisp
srhm has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
contrapunctus has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
<hirez>
ok this is a stupid n00b question. I am trying to come up with a better way to store a list of cons cells to represent my points in an algo for geometry.
<hirez>
I can do it with `nconc` and wrapping conses in lists
<hirez>
but this seems noobish and overkill. There must be a better way.
<hirez>
and also since nconc adds to the cdr you get an annoying nil in the front, fixable by `reversing` after the first point but still...annoying
<beach>
Why not just use PUSH.
contrapunctus has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
And why use a list for each element, you can use a CONS of the two coordinates.
<beach>
Saves a CONS cell.
<beach>
(defparameter *y* '())
<beach>
(push (cons 1 2) *y*)
unyu has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
etc.
<hirez>
because im a dumb noob :P
<hirez>
this works great
<hirez>
thank you
<beach>
Sure.
<Nilby>
to conc or not to conc, that is the question, whether 'tis nobler to suffer the paging and pauses of outragous garbage collection, or to push against a sea of conses...
<fiddlerwoaroof>
CLAW still doesn't "officially" support C++
<beach>
What if it does one day? How does that impact Clasp?
shka has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
shka has joined #commonlisp
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not sure, it's a different strategy with its own issues
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ECL also can interact with C++
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I suspect Clasp's strategy works better overall, especially if you're trying to maintain code on both sides of the FFI
<beach>
I see.
<shka>
the issue with ECL + C++ is that modern C++ programs use a lot of template metaprogramming
<shka>
since you can inline C++ code in ECL just fine, this can be worked around, but is a little bit tedious on the long run
<shka>
for C, no such issues
<shka>
and if somebody would want to make ECL-but-interacting-with-golang instead, it would probably work just as well
<shka>
arguably, better since golang is at least garbage collected language
<moon-child>
better why? Go's semantics and garbage collector are not commensurate with lisp's
<shka>
moon-child: as compared to C?
<shka>
anyway, C is still the portable assembly language
* shka
shrugs
<moon-child>
I think go's semantics are not appreciably closer to lisp's than c's are
<moon-child>
at least, not in a way that matters for interoperability
<shka>
hmmm
<shka>
i think that GC could work (not 100% sure about that though) and the golang style interfaces could be handy in implementing basic lisp objects when compared to just using C
<shka>
but otherwise, i agree that golang semantics are completely foreign to lisp
mankaev has joined #commonlisp
amk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mankaev has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mankaev37 has joined #commonlisp
mankaev37 has quit [Client Quit]
<borodust>
seok: do you have any specific C++ library in mind?
<seok>
opencv
<borodust>
ah
<borodust>
okay
<seok>
yes : )
amk has joined #commonlisp
<shka>
i would give ecl a shot
<seok>
@shka oo that makes sense
<seok>
put CL in C++ instead
<borodust>
i've got another request for that library so i just might as well go for it next)
<moon-child>
shka: you cannot use the go gc to collect lisp objects
nature has joined #commonlisp
<moon-child>
(nor vice versa)
<shka>
seok: i don't know, but this is what i am finding in the code
<shka>
moon-child: why?
<moon-child>
because the lisp implementation and the go implementation are not commensurate. They have different heaps and different object representations. It may be that the go implementation uses read and write guards and the lisp implementation does not, for instance
<shka>
if you would copy the ECL design and implement lisp compiler by generating go code?
<moon-child>
you could do that, sure
<shka>
well, this is what i was proposing
<moon-child>
ok
<jackdaniel>
if you represent lisp objects as go objects then the gc is perfectly reusable
<jackdaniel>
vide abcl and java gc
Oladon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
taiju has quit [Quit: Quit]
taiju has joined #commonlisp
Shinmera has quit [Changing host]
Shinmera has joined #commonlisp
silasfox has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Inline has joined #commonlisp
frgo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frgo has joined #commonlisp
<pjb>
moon-child: shka: there's the PopLog project that tries to provide a common run-time to various languages. Perhaps you'd want to implement go on it (there's already prolog, scheme, lisp and others in PopLog.
<shka>
oh, i was checking the github, i guess this was the wrong mirror
<shka>
it is even in the arch AUR
<shka>
but it won't install...
<edgar-rft>
yes, the internet is an outdated mirror of reality
<pjb>
shka: I don't know much. I got the sources of poplog a long time ago. It would probably be nice to put it on github and relive the project. There has been recently ports to darwin and linux 64-bit.
<pjb>
Perhaps it would be worth reactivating it and using it a little more. Foremost, as a multi-language platform. But then, implementing other languages in CL makes the lisp image a multi-language platform too, so…
<shka>
well, it seems to be ahead of it's time even
<shka>
it is from 80s
<moon-child>
I don't think that makes it ahead of its time. Industry always trails academia by some decades
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
SAL9000 has quit [Changing host]
SAL9000 has joined #commonlisp
ivche has joined #commonlisp
ivche has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Xach>
I ported djb's crit-bit code to CL only to find it is too slow for my purposes.
taiju has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
taiju has joined #commonlisp
Nilby has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Inline has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Inline has joined #commonlisp
Inline has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rgherdt has joined #commonlisp
Inline has joined #commonlisp
silasfox has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.1]
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
blizzard has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
blizzard has joined #commonlisp
igemnace has joined #commonlisp
hendursa1 has quit [Quit: hendursa1]
hendursaga has joined #commonlisp
contrapunctus has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
iNeedKoffee has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
contrapunctus has joined #commonlisp
Josh_2 has joined #commonlisp
<Josh_2>
Hello :)
<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
blizzard has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<Josh_2>
I know I already mentioned it but I'm going to do it again, last night DistroTube made a video on Nyxt, this might pique the interest of a few people with regards to CL :)
<beach>
Yes, I agree.
<shka>
gosh, i should switch to nyxt
<shka>
firefox is just horrible currently
<Josh_2>
shka: yep
mindCrime has joined #commonlisp
<loke>
Who was the author of nyxt?
<Josh_2>
jmercouris I believe
<beach>
Yes, jmercouris.
<jcowan>
What I am looking for right now is a browser with no JS support. Currently I am using Lagrange (a Gemini browser) along with Agena (an HTTP/HTML to Gemini proxy), and that's fine for text, but I really want a proper browser that does HTML and (some level of) CSS and that's it.
<beach>
Oh, I like the "follow link" command.
<beach>
C-j
<Josh_2>
It feels very emacs like when in emacs mode, I'm a big fan of that
<Josh_2>
Although I have noticed a few annoyances
Bike has joined #commonlisp
<Josh_2>
When I can launch it in sly I am going to try and fix them
<MichaelRaskin>
jcowan: that sounds like links2
<loke>
It would be nice if nyxt had a flatpak package available.
<MichaelRaskin>
I don't use Emacs, but Emacs is exceedingly likely to have a mode for that
<loke>
There are so many dependencies and quite tricky to build. It's a similar problem as Climaxima, and flatpak is a really nice solution.
<Josh_2>
There is a noscript mode for nyxt
<MichaelRaskin>
(probably not relying on any kind of links2/elinks/lynx)
<Josh_2>
Its one of the examples in the manual
<jcowan>
Yes, I forgot to mention that I want a GUI browser; otherwise I'd stick with lynx, which I know well.
<MichaelRaskin>
links2 in -g mode is kind of sort of GUI
<MichaelRaskin>
Shows images at least
<Josh_2>
jcowan: sounds like nyxt with noscript mode :P
<MichaelRaskin>
I wouldn't trust that horror of WebKit to be fully/reliably/safely noscript when it lies it is
<jcowan>
Exactly. A browser with no JS engine is more secure, un-buggy, efficient, and all other virtues than one which has an engine. This is true of code in general.
<MichaelRaskin>
You could try reviving closure, I guess?
blizzard has joined #commonlisp
<jcowan>
Very interesting!
<jcowan>
Dillo is I think the closest to what I want, but it depends on OpenSSL 1.0
<jcowan>
and I have not been able to build it on a Mac
<jcowan>
Making it work with SSL-1.1 is clearly TRT, but it exceeds my OpenSSL-fu to do this
<jmercouris>
I am also working on closure
<jmercouris>
I don’t expect it to be ready in a reasonable time frame though, imagine 5+ years from now until you could use it with most sites
Bike has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<MichaelRaskin>
It depends on the sample, in a sense
<jmercouris>
Also as Josh_2 said, just run Nyxt with Javascript disabled, it is containerized and you can sandbox it on your OS as well
<MichaelRaskin>
Like, _most_ of the sites providing text can be read just fine after pushing through an HTML-to-text pipeline not even aware of CSS
<jmercouris>
Yeah, well, kind of :-)
<shka>
oh
<MichaelRaskin>
(I know it works, I use it)
<shka>
nyxt in docker sounds like a good idea
Bike has joined #commonlisp
<jmercouris>
MichaelRaskin: yeah, I’ve done so for a while as well, I was a die hard lynx user
<shka>
no nyxt in flathub
<jcowan>
That's pretty much what duckling-proxy gives you (I was wrong to refer to Agena above, that's a Gopher-Gemini proxy I no longer run because Lagrange does not only Gemini but Gopher natively (and, for hack value, Finger too).
blihp has joined #commonlisp
blizzard has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
silasfox has joined #commonlisp
<jmercouris>
shka: we have a Guix pack
pjb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pjb has joined #commonlisp
yewscion has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
blizzard has joined #commonlisp
<moon-child>
jcowan: try netsurf
<jcowan>
apparently mac os support has been abandoned
<loke[m]>
jmercouris no plans for Flatpak?
<MichaelRaskin>
(me imagining a flatpack of guix and guix pack of nyxt)
<nature>
jcowan: Netsurf which is pretty neat
<jcowan>
No MacOS binary, which is understandable. I'll see if it can be built from source
dsk has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
tyson2 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
yitzi has joined #commonlisp
<jcowan>
Ugh, build hell.
<hirez>
morning everyone
<hirez>
I come bearing a pro tip: if you want to sleep well dont take a 3 hour long "nap" after 6pm
slyrus_ has joined #commonlisp
opfez has joined #commonlisp
<opfez>
hi i'm having a weird issue with SLY. if i try to indent a lisp file before launching SLY with M-x sly, it won't indent and gives the error message: "Symbol's function definition is void: sly-common-lisp-indent-function". indenting works if i either launch SLY with M-x sly or toggle sly-mode off then on again
<opfez>
does anyone know what's going on here?
fengshaun has quit [Quit: bibi!]
fengshaun has joined #commonlisp
srhm has joined #commonlisp
<opfez>
like if i try to indent with <tab> it will not work because: "Symbol's function definition is void: sly-common-lisp-indent-function"
<opfez>
oops sorry
<opfez>
wrong chat
tyson2 has joined #commonlisp
eddof13 has joined #commonlisp
mindCrime has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
srhm has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
Lord_Nightmare has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Lord_Nightmare has joined #commonlisp
contrapunctus has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
<shka>
jmercouris: so i installed guix, issue guix install nyxt and it installs... inkscape and texlive?
<shka>
what the hell?
contrapunctus has joined #commonlisp
<shka>
oh, it was GCed
<shka>
interesting
<shka>
and it just crashes on loading any page
<shka>
eh
jemoka has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.9.x-git-126-0b8276c1 - https://znc.in]
<Josh_2>
official beta tester xD
<shka>
heh
jemoka has joined #commonlisp
<Josh_2>
I followed the developer manual and I'm not using Nyxt from Sly
<Josh_2>
now using*
<shka>
Josh_2: congrats
jemoka has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
random-nick has quit [Quit: quit]
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
opfez has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
cage has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1]
random-nick has quit [Quit: quit]
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
shka has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
silasfox has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
akoana has joined #commonlisp
yitzi has quit [Quit: Leaving]
akotlarski has joined #commonlisp
akotlarski has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nij- has joined #commonlisp
nij- has quit [Quit: #commonlisp]
xlei has quit [Excess Flood]
nature has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
xlei has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
waleee has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
waleee has joined #commonlisp
taiju has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
taiju has joined #commonlisp
nij- has joined #commonlisp
mindCrime has joined #commonlisp
karlosz has joined #commonlisp
taiju has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]