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<jcowan> Back when the pname was on the alist of a symbol, you could mutate it, but that wouldn't affect the inaccessible hash table that maps pnames to their symbols.
<jasom> jcowan: what about (setf (get nil ...)...)? If the plist is part of the symbol, you're mutating the symbol, no?
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<jcowan> The story is about mutating symbol names. in Lisp 1.5, pnames were on the plist, but they were not Lisp objects (no strings yet), so you could only mutate a pname by assembly-language operations. And even if you mutated the plist of NIL to be T, it would still *work like* NIL in the sense of evaluating to itself and being the empty list. So typing in NIL would print out T, because that is the new pname of NIL.
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<pjb> jcowan: the story is foremost that modern implementations implement protections. The standard doesn't mandate them. It only forbids conforming programs to perform any retrospection on the CL stuff.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<hirez> morning beach
<hirez> another day of enjoying mcclim
<hirez> ive finally caught my stride
<hirez> implementing drawing the convex hull was a breeze
<beach> Excellent!
<beach> People need to know how good McCLIM has become, and that it is going to get even better.
<hirez> call me old fashioned but I love the command interactor
<hirez> I cant explain why
<hirez> but its just...nice to have
<beach> I agree.
<beach> But it can be hidden in applications where people don't want it.
<hirez> if they could reskin this to use a native-looking skin (or an approximation) I could probably sell this easily
<beach> I think that's one of the plans.
<hirez> judging by the hour I spent with LispWork's offering this fields remarkably similar
<hirez> im guessing CLIM was a gui kit from days gone by?
<hirez> because they feel very similar in terms of programming (though lispworks IDE makes life marginally easier...)
<beach> I think it has roughly the same age as the standard.
<beach> CLIM used to be supported by Allegro, LispWorks, and also Genera I think.
<beach> I discovered the specification a little more than 20 years ago when I needed a GUI for Gsharp, and I didn't want to attempt an FFI solution.
<hirez> you've been programming lisp since the cowboy days
<hirez> thats pretty cool
<beach> Oh, I learned Lisp (not Common Lisp obviously) in around 1977 or so.
<hirez> did you ever get to play with a real life symbolics machine?
<beach> Then, it turned out that Mike McDonald and gilberth had written pieces of a free implementation. Mike had made "horizontal" progress (with the address-book application), and gilberth had done "vertical" progress with regions and transformations.
<beach> No, I did not.
<beach> So, I think in 2000, gilberth merged his and Mike's work, encouraged by me, and that was the start of McCLIM.
<hirez> wow so you've had your hand in mcclim for a while
<hirez> no wonder you seem to know a lot about it ;D
<beach> You can say that I was the one that made it happen, even if I didn't do it myself.
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<beach> It happened at an event called the Libre Software Meeting, in Bordeaux.
<hirez> hah, now that I think about it bordeaux has come up a few conversations about computational geometry
<hirez> I think inria hosts a computational mathematics seminar there
<beach> Ah, that's possible.
<beach> Otherwise, I was a grad student at Johns Hopkins when Joe O'Rourke and Subhash Suri were doing good work in computational geometry. They are fairly well known in the field.
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<hirez> O'Rourke is a demigod in the field.
<beach> Subhash is still a friend of mine.
<hirez> Also OR is one of the few people that would actually answer my emails
<hirez> gave me very good graduate school advice
<beach> Great!
<hirez> I actually have the second edition of his book on my desk.
<hirez> Its basically the seminal work in introductory CG
<beach> Yes, I see.
<beach> Small world.
<hirez> Very small haha
<hirez> I've found lisp to be a natural fit. Despite pressure to use python and what not I'm committed to porting everything over this direction.
<hirez> Conses are natural representations of points. Functional composition is extremely useful.
<beach> Good. Python would be horrible for that kind of computation. You would have to write your code in C.
<hirez> And I have. In the process of running experiments in one of my papers python's GC was so aggressive I had to retool it in Cython
<beach> It is usually estimated that Python has a factor 50 or so performance penalty compared to a good Common Lisp implementation like SBCL.
<moon-child> hirez: could you not disable the gc entirely? That's frequently a reasonable tradeoff for batch processing work, even with a good gc
<hirez> moon-child, not in python. At least not easily. Cython let me "get around" the GC by redefining structures as C structures.
<hirez> Its mostly industry pressure. CG is trying to fit in with the ML guys these days.
<moon-child> huh
<moon-child> oh--I suppose cpython uses reference counting, so the main cost would be incrementing and decrementing reference counts, not actually allocating and freeing or tracing objects
<hirez> Thankfully I am focused on robotic path planning. A nice fit for lisp and symbolic computation imo :D
<hirez> moon-child, that and the representation of structures in the VM. They are extremely heavy. 80% or more of my GC penalty was coming from dicts/sets getting collected as I dumped them.
<hirez> The fact I can tune SBCL's GC already is a huge selling point.
<moon-child> ah, yeah, python's objects are quite heavy, and it can't really leave them unboxed
<hirez> yeah and outside of Cython there's no way to just get a simple C-like structure.
<hirez> Tuples are close but not perfect, and classes are really the only other way. Each of those has a huge penalty in terms of all the free stuff it gives you.
<hirez> Anyway, this all to say with McCLIM working and finally starting to really grok lisp I'm happy with what ive done far.
<hirez> Happy enough to keep on pushing ;D
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<GreaseMonkey> what kinds of IRC bot libraries would you recommend on QuickLisp or via something i can check out into my local-projects directory? or would i be best to instead look for something that would let me parse lines fairly well... or should i just bite the bullet and use what's in cl + alexandria?
<GreaseMonkey> ...oh and usocket of course unless something tends to be a lot better than that
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<GreaseMonkey> the other thing is it needs to be happy running in a SWANK server
<GreaseMonkey> but i suspect it's really only stuff like SDL that needs special treatment of the main thread and whatnot
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<ldb> GreaseMonkey: cl-irc? https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/
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<GreaseMonkey> ldb: thanks for that, i'm looking into it now
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<kami_> Good afternoon, #commonlisp
<kami_> I am sure I've asked this at least once in the past (on freenode), but I'm getting old ... so: what are my options if c2ffi says 'Not all C basic types are covered! The outlier is: :long-double' on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu ?
<kami_> and cffi/c2ffi::+c-builtin-types+ has the value
<kami_> (":void" ":_Bool" ":char" ":signed-char" ":unsigned-char" ":short" ":unsigned-short" ":int" ":unsigned-int" ":long" ":unsigned-long" ":long-long" ":unsigned-long-long" ":float" ":double" ":long-double")
<kami_> I inspected cffi/c2ffi::+c-builtin-types+ after falling into the debugger
<jackdaniel> I think that this would be easier if you had constructed a minimal example with code
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<kami_> jackdaniel: that's definitely a very good idea. I thought it might be a commonly encountered problem and someone would be able to tell me my mistake off the top of their hat.
<kami_> And with cffi stuff, it is often difficult to create a 'minimal' example, as you just give it a header file and the person who wants to reproduce the problem has to have at least the header files installed on their machine.
<jackdaniel> in practice often issues with libraries come from typos. and a person who makes them is usually typo-blind (at least I don't see my typos until either the compiler or a person tells me about it)
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<kami_> that's true
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<kami_> But in this case, it's something else:
<kami_> ;; TODO FIXME (":long-double" :long-double)
<kami_> long-double is only supported on scl
<jackdaniel> fwiw ecl also supports long double but cffi doesn't have that in ecl's backend
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<ludston> Does (intern "blah" :keyword) hold :blah in memory forever or are keywords a special case somehow?
<jackdaniel> forever and ever
<beach> Yes, the former.
<jackdaniel> on the other hand '#:|blah| will be gc-ed when not referenced anymore
<jackdaniel> the root is the package in the keyword case
<ludston> Most of our json libraries like to intern, which is a bit scary considering that json might be coming from possibly hostile 3rd parties
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<jackdaniel> symbols are heavier than strings, but not that much heavier
<jackdaniel> I think that it will take some jason to exhaust your heap
<jackdaniel> json*
<ludston> The concern would be that someone would send json messages like {"A":"", "AA":"", "AAA":""} which will eventually DOS the system
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<jackdaniel> doesn't that apply also to excessively long string values? (that's what I've meant that symbols are heavy, but not super-heavy)
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<ludston> No, because you can trivially filter out long string values by validating against incoming stream size, vs receiving many small strings with unique values that get interned uniquely
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<splittist> aren't short things smaller than long things?
<ludston> It depends how many of them you have in a row
<_death> would there be a point in interning them?
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<ludston> The json libraries I'm looking at are interning because it is convenient to convert "{"A":1,"B":2}" into '(:a 1 :b 2)
<ludston> As opposed to '("a" 1 "b" 2) which would be safe
<splittist> I guess if you're snarfing arbitrary JSON, and I can spam you with (expt #x10FFFF n) entries you might be in trouble. But wouldn't the same thing happen with strings?
<_death> ludston: well, I often use com.gigamonkeys.json which doesn't intern.. but often interning may be convenient because you want to have references to particular keys in your source, so you could have a hybrid that find-symbol in some package, or for some delimited set of keys
<ludston> _death: I'll have a look at it. I'm liking jonathan the most out of the libs so far, and it's pretty trivial for me to hack it to *not* intern.
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<ludston> splittist: The problem is that you don't know if the json is arbitrary/valid until you have parsed it, and at that point it has already interned. Strings aren't a problem because they are garbage collected.
<_death> ludston: you could also count the number of newly interned symbols to make it possible to detect such anomalies, or intern them in a non-keyword package.. there are a myriad of approaches
<ludston> _death: I might set up long-term monitoring for that. I'm trying to think of a case where I'd actually want interning. Maybe a local config file? But then I would just use Lisp.
<_death> when you say "interning", do you mean "intern" or "find-symbol"
<ludston> As above, specifically (intern "blah" :keyword)
<_death> so I guess interning could be helpful if you want to use EQ to compare things (but then you could also use a hash table of strings)
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<SAL9000> you could intern as a postprocessing step, I guess? json -> (list string) -> (list symbol)
<ludston> One of the reasons that common lisp is the best, is you can just redefine some function in someone elses namespace that you disagree with.
<SAL9000> :-)
<SAL9000> That's one of the many double-edged swords/footguns, to be honest. This kind of thing -- while awesome for us -- is probably a major obstacle to large scale/commercial adoption of CL.
<_death> instead you can make it possible to provide your own function to the json parser
<_death> many languages allow similar shenanigans
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<_death> just think of the good ol' #define private public ;)
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<ludston> _death: But nowhere near as clean as (progn (in-package :jonathan.utils) (defun make-keyword (str) str)))
<_death> "clean" is not the word I'd use :)
<ludston> Don't judge me! This way I don't have to fork an entire repo to change one line
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<ludston> Haha
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<ludston> I guess you have to be careful though because it might be a breach of the software license
<_death> there's always defadvice ;)
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<dieggsy> huh, for some reason i can't use *standard-output* in slynk with allegro's excl:run-shell-command. has anyone run into this before?
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<dieggsy> er, sly that is. it uninformatively says the stream "can't be used for output". I'm sure it's some weirdness to do with how sly handles output
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<etimmons> slynk's *standard-output* is a gray stream. Not all implementations can use that type of stream for their external command functions
<splittist> dieggsy: I know nothing about excl:run-shell-command, but is it talking about output from the process, which would need a lisp INPUT stream
<etimmons> UIOP's {run,launch}-program says that allegro can handle handle streams that are of subtype FILE-STREAM
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<etimmons> * type FILE-STREAM
<dieggsy> etimmons: oh. hadn't even heard of gray streams
<dieggsy> huh. maybe i can work around it by having it return the stream and use that to print myself....
<etimmons> That's similar to how other implementations handle it internally. I know that in cases like this, ECL spawns a new thread that shuffles data from a new stream associated with the program to the stream where you want it to go.
<jackdaniel> yeah, that was tricky :)
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<Josh_2> Afternoon
<dieggsy> or actually, if i run uiop:run-program in a thread, will it only block that thread?
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<etimmons> It should, but that really depends on the implementation you're using since it's a thin veneer to give a uniform-ish API over the implementation specific functions
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<Xach> Hmm, is there anything standard-ish (cltl2 included) to get the name of the function enclosing a macro or compiler-macro at macroexpansion time?
<Bike> What do you mean by enclosing? Like, if a macro is being expanded, the name of the function whose body the macro form is in?
<Krystof> don't think so. a cltl2-ish environment might have information about block names, but I think even allegro doesn't have a "list-all-blocks-in-this-environment" exported operator
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<Krystof> * (defmacro foo (&environment env) (inspect env))
<Krystof> * (defun bar (x) (foo) x)
<Krystof> The object is a STRUCTURE-OBJECT of type SB-KERNEL:LEXENV.
<Krystof> FOO
<Krystof> 0. FUNS: NIL
<Krystof> 1. VARS: ((X . #<SB-C::LAMBDA-VAR :%SOURCE-NAME X {10018CA583}>))
<Krystof> 2. BLOCKS: ((BAR #<SB-C::ENTRY {10018CAD73}> #<SB-C::CTRAN 1 {10018CA883}>
<Krystof> #<SB-C::LVAR 2 {10018CA8B3}>))
<Krystof> whoops, sorry. I meant to trim that
<Xach> Krystof: thanks. block names were my first thought but the env object I have is a bit more opaque to me than SBCL's
<dieggsy> with slime/sly is there no way to make sure all output is shown in the repl buffer (as opposed to some going to the inferior lisp buffer) ?
<scymtym> Xach: the log4cl library must have something like that but i doubt it is even remotely standard-ish
<Xach> scymtym: i don't mind non-standard in this case
<Xach> (i know my question mentioned standard-ish but i am not too picky actually)
<Xach> that's a good pointer, thank you
<scymtym> sure
<jackdaniel> log4cl takes the enclosing block name and it works only on sbcl and ccl
* Xach is just discovering that
<Xach> Allegro would be most useful to me in fact. Time to scrape around the env object a little more.
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<Josh_2> Shinmera: is chirp:statuses/update-with-media supposed to work with gifs?
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<jackdaniel> (1+ most-positive-fixnum) ways for making repl unusable: (setf *print-right-margin* (1+ most-positive-fixnum))
<Inline> should there be assertions going on with *print-right-margin* ?
<Inline> or *right-margin*
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<jcowan> jackdaniel: Even professional copy editors are blind to what they write themselves.
<pjb> jackdaniel: it's a non-negative integer, so (1+ most-positive-fixnum) is perfectly conforming.
<pjb> Any implementation that fails on that is non-conforming.
<pjb> Booo!
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<_death> just need a larger screen, or smaller font ;)
<dieggsy> something something iosevka
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<Shinmera> Josh_2: No, just use update and pass the media argument (needs latest ql though)
<Shinmera> Josh_2: update-with-media has been deprecated for years
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<Josh_2> Shinmera: Okay thanks :)
<Shinmera> the new update argument also allows posting four pictures, and very large gifs or videos.
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<Josh_2> Okay sweet, I have a gif of 2.8mb, that should be alright?
<Shinmera> iirc gif limits are 15MB.
<Josh_2> okay very cool
<Josh_2> I just change d ..update-with-media <text> <file> to update <text> :media <file>
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