<bslsk05>
github.com: zfs/module/zfs/spa_misc.c at master · openzfs/zfs · GitHub
<clever>
ah, its basically just 1 / (1<<spa_slop_shift) percent is reserved
<clever>
so at 5 (the default), 3.125% is reserved
<clever>
so earlier, when i changed it to 4 and got 0 free, its because i doubled the reservation, to 6.25%
<nikolapdp>
yeah checks out
<mjg>
clever: what's your biggest zfs pool
<clever>
mjg: 3 x 4tb in a raidz1 array
<clever>
so 8tb of capacity, with 4tb of parity
<clever>
but, those numbers are also fuzzy, because of how raidz1 stores shorter records
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<mjg>
rookie numbers man
<clever>
lets say the block size is 4kb, and i write an 8kb record to disk, raidz1 will split into 4k+4kb of data, and 4kb of parity, and spread it over 3 disks
<nikolapdp>
we're not rich here mjg
<mjg>
not to throw shade!
<clever>
but if i write a 4kb record, raidz1 will basically degrade down to a mirror, and store just 2 copies
<clever>
so the parity overhead varies, depending on the size of the record
<mjg>
what's that, your local nas for storing movies 'n shit?
<mjg>
or a backup server
<clever>
mjg: i still need to get the 3 x 16tb sas drives going
<mjg>
(perhaps both?)
<clever>
both and everything, lol
<clever>
its got backups of a laptop i had over a decade ago
<nikolapdp>
same actually lol
<clever>
its got more shows then i could possibly rewatch
<clever>
i think it has a corrupt ext4 volume from when lvm ate things
<clever>
its also got a chunk of my windows steam library, shared over iscsi
<mjg>
lol
<clever>
the windows machine was full, the nas wasnt, samba hates steam, so iscsi it was :P
<nikolapdp>
neat
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<clever>
i also ran talos princicle 2 over iscsi like that for a few days, and ouch, the LOD generation is shit
<kof673>
"a most DE-LIGHTful shade" </alchemy land is almost 180 of modern things>
<heat57>
clever: ext4 got "fast commit" which is basically just logging ext4 operations instead of block writes
<clever>
the low LOD models are auto-generated, and look horrible
<clever>
and due to the fragmentation on my nas, it can take minutes to load
<clever>
then i freed up space on my nvme, and it loads so fast i cant even catch the low LOD model, lol
<mjg>
i have to say the old bsd installers i used to consider shite back in the day (2005-ish)
<mjg>
beat the shit out of linux installers in the same timeframe
<mjg>
at least ubuntu and slackware
<mjg>
erm, debian
<mjg>
and salckware
<clever>
ive installed LFS before, so gentoo and nixos where easy mode :P
<mjg>
it's not about being easy or not, it's about being CUMBERSOME or not
<mjg>
fucking xfree86 configuration vibes
<clever>
oh, that reminds me, the first time i switched to wpa_supplicant, because i was away from home and was forced to go wpa, lol
<clever>
and the problem, is looking up how it works, when you dont have wifi :P
<mjg>
clever: there is a funny quote somewhere in freebsd's kernel developer guide
<mjg>
clever: they recommend printing the docs because "it is difficult to read online documentation while single-stepping the kernel"
<clever>
lol
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<clever>
thats why i basically always install a new nixos machine over ssh
<clever>
so i have a working env with copy/paste and all of my usual tools
<clever>
nixos does allow making a custom iso that has all of your usual tools, but it wont have your state (chrome bookmarks and such)
<clever>
and the usual problem of fitting 2 keyboards and mice on one desk :P
<clever>
when you can just throw the pc in a random corner, plug in a cat5, and ssh into it
<clever>
the `gang` flag in that listing, means the block is fragmented
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<clever>
the record on line 30 for example, if i take the 2 sizes listed (0x188000 + 0x2000), then i get 1.5mb, but the dblk on line 4 says it should be 1mb
<kof673>
the only thing i ever had an issue with on freebsd install, is i believe you need to manually glabel and gmirror ahead of time if you want those, don't know if they ever added that (or zfs now i suppose)
<clever>
ah, but because of raidz1, it should be 1.5mb (exactly 50% overhead), but its actually 1.5390625mb
<clever>
an extra 40kb wasted, on that record then
<clever>
kof673: for zfs, you can upgrade a lone disk into a mirror at any time, and downgrade it back into a lone disk
<clever>
converting between single/mirror, and raid i dont think is possible, and removing a disk i dont think is possible (just replacing it with the same type, and same or larger size)
<kof673>
you can do that, just you have to create the mirror on one disk first :D
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<kof673>
the installer did not do that :D
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<clever>
ah, for zfs, you dont need that, it can seamlessly turn a single disk into a mirror at any time
<clever>
all that really does, is change some top level metadata, and clone all of the data over
<kof673>
^^^ yeah so if you create them ahead of time, then you can just point the installer there
<kof673>
or it is all "transparent" the installer is none the wiser
<clever>
have you seen the labels in the vdev stuff?
<kof673>
i have no idea what vdev stuff is like /dev/label? yes there was that, or something similar
<clever>
basically, a vdev is a disk within the pool
<clever>
when doing raid, the entire raid collection is considered a single vdev
<clever>
so if you do raidz1 over sda/sdb/sdc, then that whole set is a single raidz1 vdev
<clever>
the gist i linked, shows the headers at the start of a single partition
<kof673>
oh yeah, i just meant it makes entries like that: > path: '/dev/disk/by-id/wwn-0x50014ee2654606d2-part2'
<kof673>
so fstab/whatever can use those IIRC
<clever>
on my desktop, you can see the headers define a single disk (no redundancy)
<clever>
the path in there, is a performance thing, when mounting the pool, you can look there first
<clever>
but if the disk cant be found there, you can take the guid from desktop line 19, and just search every disk in the box
<clever>
but when you start to get 100+ disks in a box, that search could become costly
<kof673>
what i do know, the geom stuff is all producer/consumer so i believe it is supposed to be entirely transparent to whatever else you do (e.g. what filesystem you create on it), and arbitrary stacking of whatever components
<clever>
that sounds like lvm
<kof673>
so there is also an encryption thing etc.
<clever>
if you look at my nas in the above gist, line 18 says the type is raidz, line 21 says 1 parity disk, and then lines 28-51 define the children, what guid to expect for each member of the raidz1
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<kof673>
yeah, i just use labels for those :D
<clever>
zfs uses guid's all over the place
<clever>
for my nas, lines 31/39/47 define the guid of each child of the raidz1, line 20 is then the guid of the whole raidz1 vdev, and line 13 is the "top guid", the guid for the root containing all data
<clever>
in this case, the raidz1 and top guid match, so the raidz1 is the root
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<clever>
but, if you instead did `raidz1(sda,sdb,sdc) + raidz1(sdd,sde,sdf)`, the top guid wouldnt match
<clever>
so then you need to search for other things, with the same pool_guid, and assemble the parts
<clever>
the pool_guid is the closest thing to an ext4 uuid
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<kof673>
*or, freebsd maybe i didn't even use the installer, just make your label and mirror, put an MBR at some point, make FSses, mount, then untar IIRC lol
<kof673>
that is all the base system "sets" were, is tar files
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<clever>
kof673: gentoo is the same, the stage3 tarball is a complete working userland, but no kernel
<clever>
kof673: unpack that to a rootfs, chroot in, build/install a kernel, setup the bootloader
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<GeDaMo>
"Each file written to the iso9660 filesystem must have a filename in the 8.3 format (8 characters, period, 3 characters, all upper case), even if Rock Ridge is in use."
<zid>
cus it doesn't understand whatever extension is being used
<bslsk05>
git-send-email.io: Learn to use email with git!
<ddevault>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
can you tell me why the same config on two machines makes one machine send an email successfully, and the other fails with Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table
<zid>
nikolapdp: User unknown in local recipient table
<ddevault>
postfix issue probably
<zid>
in the 2nd machine
<nikolapdp>
eh
<zid>
you're welcome
<ddevault>
you using sendmail?
<nikolapdp>
git send-email --to="~sircmpwn/email-test-drive@lists.sr.ht" HEAD
<nikolapdp>
the exact command ^
<ddevault>
I mean are you configuring git to use /bin/sendmail
<ddevault>
rather than SMTP
<zid>
last time I did emails it was what.. postfix, sendmail and.. courier-auth or something?
<nikolapdp>
oh, whatever is the default
<ddevault>
yeah that's the issue
<ddevault>
you didn't actually follow the tutorial on git-send-email.io
<ddevault>
there are mandatory configuration steps, unless you happen to have a working sendmail set up locally
<zid>
courier-imap
<zid>
That was it
<zid>
I set my own email up, then found out that basically nobody would accept emails from me
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<zid>
because everybody subscribes to whitelists
<nikolapdp>
ddevault: oh you might be right, i had the client set up on one machine before trying this
<nikolapdp>
and not on the other
<zid>
question, can you send email over ipv6
<nikolapdp>
guess i completely missed it the first time because i didn't realise i already had a working client lol
<nikolapdp>
zid: no clue
<zid>
I'm not sure enough of how MX records work, I've only ever seen them have ipv4 addresses in, but idk if they're just fancy A records, or if they can be AAAA records too etc
<ddevault>
they are fancy CNAMEs
<ddevault>
they can refer to A, AAAA, another CNAME, whatever
<zid>
okay cool
<zid>
I wasn't sure if they were just aliased A records, or if they were like, pointer records, so they're the latter and ipv6 will work fine then, neat
<ddevault>
some clean up to do with the syscall ABI and such first
<ddevault>
need to add a separate kernel and user stack per task, and improve the code a bit elsewise
<nikolapdp>
yeah fair enouhg
<nikolapdp>
having a hello world is a flex though
<ddevault>
I mean I could implement a write-to-the-kernel-console syscall inside of two minutes now
<ddevault>
but don't feel the need to flex
<nikolapdp>
lol yeah that's what i was talking about
<ddevault>
(or rather, it's not impressive because I can do it so easily)
<nikolapdp>
yeah got ya
<nikolapdp>
rdtsc is a bit silly
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<zid>
GeDaMo: just found an article about writing games in rust, and it does infact, mention a "game that is entirely weird one-off upgrades" like binding of isaac (or balatro) being damn near impossible to write in it :p
<zid>
you have to refactor the entire project after every card you add
<nikolapdp>
kek
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<zid>
"borrow checker says no"
<ddevault>
segmentation makes me sad
<zid>
have you considered
<zid>
completely ignoring it
<zid>
intel told me to tell you that
<nikolapdp>
what are you working on
<ddevault>
putting per-CPU state in %gs
<nikolapdp>
oh you got acpi
<zid>
gs and segmentation are thankfully, entirely unrelated
<ddevault>
no
<ddevault>
just improving my interrupt and syscall entry points in advance of eventually having SMP
<zid>
gs is just a base pointer loaded from an MSR
<ddevault>
I could just shove it in a global
<zid>
rather than an actual segment
<ddevault>
I set IA32_KERNEL_GS_BASE (and GS_BASE for good measure) to address foo
<ddevault>
and in userspace it's identical to System-V ABI except that %rcx is moved to %r10 before the syscall instruction
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<nikolapdp>
neat
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<heat>
that handler looks iffy
<heat>
you probably want a well defined full structure with all the regs you may want to inspect
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<heat>
you also need to disable interrupts between swapgs and sysret
<heat>
you don't want to get into a case where your segment registers say ring0 and your swapgs says ring3 such that it'll confuse your ISR handler
<zid>
i'm surprised there's no flag to make syscall disable interrupts
<zid>
so that you can use it more like an irq handler
<heat>
there is
<zid>
oh
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<zid>
no wonder I am surprised then
<heat>
i have it as IA32_MSR_SFMASK, might have a different SDM name
<heat>
basically you give it an EFLAGS mask of crap you want zero'd at syscall entry
<zid>
right
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<ddevault>
heat: the syscall handler implements the System-V ABI, it saves callee-saved registers and otherwise passes them along to the syscall handler normally
<ddevault>
and interrupts are disabled automatically with the syscall MSRs
<ddevault>
(and re-enabled)
<ddevault>
but I will make a note to cli there for when I do kernel preemption
<heat>
but you need to disable them again around the swapgs + sysret
<zid>
why again
<ddevault>
or just add it now
<zid>
what has suddenly reenabled them
<ddevault>
^
<heat>
you'll run the syscalls with interrupts enabled no?
<ddevault>
in the future, yes
<ddevault>
but right now they're disabled
<zid>
mine are also disabled on entry and stay disabled
<heat>
yes and i'm telling you there's a gotcha there
<zid>
and what is it
<zid>
we keep asking
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<heat>
you can't run that sysret path with interrupts enabled, that's all
<ddevault>
they're not enabled
<ddevault>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<zid>
what has suddenly reenabled them
<ddevault>
but I added a cli so that I don't forget about that when I add kernel preemption in the future
<ddevault>
thanks
<heat>
this is not about preemption but sure
<heat>
the problem really is about getting any sort of IRQ that will get confused on GS_BASE=usergs and cs=ring0
<heat>
NMIs are also a problem but those usually take a more paranoid code path
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<ddevault>
hm, I start getting triple faults instead of proper interrupts once I jump to userspace
<zid>
not too hard to figure out with -d int at least
<ddevault>
aye, looking over it now
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<ddevault>
turns out I just had a dumb interrupt handler, fixed
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<heat>
apparently my console code was so bad it freezed the host too
<zid>
frozzened
<heat>
froze my bad
<nikolapdp>
kek
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<zid>
heat never accepts my patches :(
<nikolapdp>
what patches did you send him
<zid>
frozzened
<nikolapdp>
):
<heat>
i only take email patchen sorry
<mjg>
boomer
<heat>
fuck you mofer
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<nikolapdp>
i've sent email patchen to two people in the last 24h
<nikolapdp>
and i am a zoomer
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<heat_>
hah here's a fun bug
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<heat_>
i had a mysterious ~10s hang with the new printing code
<heat_>
before this, printf didn't log to the console
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<heat_>
it turns out i was doing printf in the middle of PCI bar enumeration, which involves turning off the device's mem and IO decoding
<heat_>
:^)
<nikolapdp>
:)
<heat_>
it's only surprising qemu didn't throw an error
<heat_>
though i guess bad MMIO accesses on the PC don't necessarily do that
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<zid>
I'd expect "nothing" and "reads 0xFF" or "stalls" but not errors
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<mjg>
well still, looks like you managed to accidentally fuzz out a bug in kvm?
<heat_>
not sure where the bug is
<heat_>
i'm only touching the framebuffer so i wouldn't expect it to be a hang on my end
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<vai>
hi
<GeDaMo>
Hi vai :)
<nikolapdp>
hello
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<Ermine>
henlo
<Ermine>
I wonder how can you sneak code into SMM
<heat_>
wdym
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<zid>
break the rsa keys for intel, upload your own ME firmware?
<zid>
or exploit it at runtime
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<heat_>
SMM != ME
<heat_>
but yes basically hope that bootguard isn't activated, or use a leaked RSA key or something, or use an exploit to write into SMRAM
<heat_>
bootguard not being enabled is actually pretty likely
<zid>
who said SMM == ME?
<heat_>
me firmware has nothing to do with this
<zid>
I thought the ME firmware is what held the SMM code blobs
<Ermine>
I can't stop thinking of that hp laptop which have overriden windows boot screen
<zid>
the calendar?
<heat_>
nope, SMM is in a regular firmware volume, such as the rest of the firmware modules *and* ME
<heat_>
HP DAYSTARTER BABY WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<nikolapdp>
lol
<zid>
SMI SMM SMD SMP, I vote we stop using SM*
<zid>
SMT
<zid>
SMS, SMD
<zid>
what's next, sega management interrupts?
<heat_>
SMH
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<kof673>
maybe not what you mean, 95/98/me at least, boot screen was just a bmp. some bios used to let you flash the bios screen as well
<mjg>
i don't remember if it was a bmp
<kof673>
well, something, pcx or similar
<kof673>
some easy to replace format
<mjg>
i do remember there was a funky named file you could place
<mjg>
to use it intead of the default
<mjg>
also the "shutdown" screen was in fact a dos prompt
<CompanionCube>
kof673: this isn't that, that's normal
<bslsk05>
'Quick Start, Episode 7: Crimes... And Felonies.' by Cathode Ray Dude [CRD] (00:59:23)
<kof673>
thx
<heat_>
the efi functionality for switching boot splashes actually pwned it a few months ago
<heat_>
who knew cheap crappy image parsers written with little skill or care would bite someone in the end
<nikolar>
Shocker
<zid>
oh yea forgor about the exploit
<zid>
wasn't in all bioses, wasn't in mine
<zid>
nor do I care
<heat_>
yes because all vendors had their own image parsing libraries
<heat_>
cuz ofc this is what they call "value-add"
<zid>
if you have permissions to change my boot splash, you have permissions to encrypt my files and shit
<zid>
so idgaf what you can do to my efi, as long as you forget I have a web browser installed
<zid>
You may be able to drain my bank account, impersonate me to my friends and scam them etc, but I will *never* allow you to install an unsigned printer driver damnit!
<heat_>
with that exploit i could defeat secure boot and rootkit you for months
<heat_>
well, you'd probably never notice
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<zid>
I'd never notice because I never reboot
<zid>
It's basically like threatening me by saying you'll make it so I never get any sex
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<zid>
(except with nikolapdp)
<kof673>
there...were old phones with ringtone (midi i believe) exploits :D
<nikolapdp>
midi jailbreaking
<zid>
that's a real thing nikolapdp
<nikolapdp>
i assume so
<zid>
except in the modern era
<zid>
people distribute ripped gameboy/snes/etc music as just a rom that twiddles the sound chip the same way the game would have
<nikolapdp>
because no one uses midi anymore
<zid>
so the 'player' for those is just a gameboy emulator
<zid>
and emulators love exploits
<zid>
vlc had a couple I think, cus it linked to a sound lib that supported nsf or whatever
<nikolapdp>
oh meta
<nikolapdp>
neat
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<bslsk05>
'Corporate Open Source is Dead' by Jeff Geerling (00:06:55)
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<nikolapdp>
rip
<nikolapdp>
that's why gpl exists
<heat_>
thats a blistering hot take
<heat_>
the vast majority of contributors on large FOSS projects are corporate
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<nikolar>
Until it's not
<Ermine>
Don't you like it when people discuss open source stuff while recording macos
<nikolar>
Lol yeah
<Ermine>
But anyway, corporate foss is more than alive
<zy>
osdev on Freenode is dead right?
<nikolar>
I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying that exists to prevent what he was talking about
<nikolar>
*that GPL exists
<heat_>
zy, probably
<Ermine>
Looking at BSP stuff, I want to say that GPL prevents basically nothing
<Ermine>
Oh, and grsecurity
<zy>
i see geist is still around. He helped me so much on freenode's osdev nearly 20 years ago lmao... time flies
<nikolar>
Yup he's pretty active
<zy>
amazing
<Ermine>
oh, and a bunch of Chinese and Russian companies that just don't give a shit about GPL
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<geist>
oh hi zy
<geist>
what was your nick then? I dont recognize zy
<geist>
and yeah there was a big split between freenode and libera. the bulk of us moved over here
<geist>
also yay my clock chips came in from ebay and have restored nvram to my sun machines
<geist>
at least for now, the chuips themselves are from the late 90s, so who knows how much life is left in the internal battery. presumably it's wired up sucht hat they dont draw power when not plugged into anything
<geist>
but at least now i have some old ones i can try to dremel into and see if i can manually fix without any fear of messing things up more
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<nikolapdp>
you can probably remove the epoxy and just attach a replacement battery kik
<nikolapdp>
btw geist, you've received some patchen in your inbox
<geist>
yep, will extract that in a bit
<zid>
are those the beeg rtc modules
<geist>
been doing some retro computer maintenance for the last few hours
<heat_>
git am git am git am git am
<zid>
like inchhalf long
<heat_>
nikolapdp, how about you send ME some patches
<nikolapdp>
what do you need heat_
<geist>
nikolapdp: well, it's part of a full chip, so basically yeah you can dremel into the end of it and if you're careful, find the terminal where the battery that's piggybacked goes into the underlying chip
<nikolapdp>
yeah that's what i meant
<geist>
you have to be careful and go in from the right end and not too deep, to keep getting into the battery itself
<geist>
the battery terminal is apparently entirely 'within' the chip, doesn't come in via pins like that
<zid>
back when RTC modules were a dip package with a humpback whale socketed in
<zid>
that's soldered on geist
<zid>
after having been dremeled through
<nikolapdp>
geist maybe someone's reverse engineered it so you can lookup how to fix/rebuild it
<geist>
hang on, lemme find pics. for these you go in via one of the two ends
<zid>
[23:16] <geist> nikolapdp: well, it's part of a full chip, so basically yeah you can dremel into the end of it and if you're careful, find the terminal where the battery that's piggybacked goes into the underlying chip
<geist>
yes i know how to do it!
<zid>
I was replying to this
<geist>
but if i fuck it up i have *no* nvram and the system wont even boot
<geist>
so now that i have new chips, i can try to fix one of the old ones
<zid>
People make little arduino ones at least for pc
<bslsk05>
'Sun NVRAM Repair - EP 6' by The Network Lab (00:32:04)
<geist>
they're 48MT... series
<geist>
ah actually this guy seems to have done it a lot easier than the other one i had watched before
<geist>
which went in from the top, and basically carved off about 20% of the end of it to get to the terminals as they come out of the battery and go 'down' into the chip
<zid>
but yea, the repros are like £2 on ebay etc, probably one of them is correct, but idk which
<zid>
if your battery is dead
<zid>
or you hack it to non-functional
<geist>
i dont think anyone has reproed one of these
<geist>
they're not the same series
<zid>
I've seen like 5 different dallas ones reprod just searching for pics
<geist>
it's a nice little chip, FWIW. the datasheet shows them as being 8kx8, full sram
<geist>
yes i know but these aren't Dallas chips!
<zid>
yes, fine
<geist>
there's not nearly as much of a market for these, so no there aren't cheapass repros
<zid>
I said I've seen *lots of types*
<zid>
so it may have been done
<geist>
nah i grepped the interwebs a bunch
<zid>
you may need to use your own arduino fw or whatever though
<geist>
yah there's a clearance issue too, they're just under another board, at least on the ultra 2
<nikolapdp>
what sparc machines do you have geist
<zid>
The one in your vid visually looks dimilar size to the old dallas ones, and this arduinoey ones are way smaller
<zid>
because they're not resin'd
<geist>
nikolapdp: a medly. a few sparcstation lxs (one has a bum power supply). a sparcstation 20, just ordered some more ram for it so i could max it out
<geist>
and a sun ultra 2
<geist>
all have dead nvrams (until today)
<nikolapdp>
oh well
<nikolapdp>
nice collection though
<zid>
now they have melted nvrams not just dead!
<nikolapdp>
):
<zid>
nikolapdp your head is on upside down btw
<geist>
so the key is if the battery is dead they just reset back to scratch when you power it up, and then it takes like 15 minutes to run through an exhaustive diags
<geist>
but once you boot, until you power it off it holds the state
<geist>
and you can reboot all you want
<geist>
but since the ethernet address is saved in the nvram, you basically need to configure it every time you power it on
<geist>
after you wait 15 minutes
<nikolapdp>
zid :) (:
<zid>
now you're.. a musical score?
* xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF
WARNING NO BANS DETECTED WARNING
<nikolapdp>
): (: :( :)
<zid>
forkbomb
<nikolapdp>
:(){:|:&};:
<zid>
ah now that's a normal looking face
<xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF>
щ(゜ロ゜щ)
<nikolapdp>
wonder if that forkbomb works on this bsd2.11
<geist>
anyway, yeah just running the ss20 through it's paces
<heat_>
oh yeah?
<geist>
now i can actually put these on a shelf or rack or whatnot and use them because it doesn't require i fuck with them on the console every time i boot it
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<nikolapdp>
yeah it's defining a function that spawns two copies of itself in the background
<nikolapdp>
and then it's calling it
* xFCFFDFFFFEFFFAF
is running BidenSD up and running
<geist>
though i should probably put the top on, i think the ss20 kinda needs it to run air across the two cpus, which are stacked on top of each other just to the left of the powersupply in the back
<geist>
basically requires it sucks air across them
<geist>
they get hoooot
<zid>
ah the classic hoover design rack case
<geist>
yah these are called pizza box cases back in the day
<zid>
If your machine doesn't sound like a jet taking off, is it even running
<nikolapdp>
we'll never know
<geist>
it's not that bad. but part of this era (about 1994) cpus is it pulls constant current all the time
<geist>
so the whole thing is iirc about 85W, but probably 50 of it or so is being dissapated across both of those cpu heat sinks, which are like half an inch tall
<geist>
and one of them is sandwiched under the other
<bslsk05>
'Dell Server sounds like Jet taking off' by jg1683 (00:00:48)
<geist>
the crazy thing is this case actually supported *4* cpus. but i think there was thermal issues there
<zid>
Those fans probably draw more power than my cpu
<nikolapdp>
lol
<geist>
these are a pair of SM81s i think, 85Mhz supersparc IIs
<zid>
delta PFB0812EE-E fan uses.. 48W
<zid>
73dBA
<nikolapdp>
those were still sparc8 right
<geist>
yep. sparc8m
<zid>
130CFM though on an 80mm fan :D
<geist>
the ultra 2 under it is a ultrasparc II
<zid>
16800 rpm
<geist>
but both of these cases are pretty silent. by far the most noise is the spindle on the hard drive
<geist>
since it's a 10k rpm drive it hink
<nikolapdp>
heh
<geist>
i might pull it out and put in a scsi2sd some day
<nikolapdp>
it's not ide is it
<geist>
nah. later ultra workstations sun moved towards more comodity stuff to save price
<geist>
cost. but this gen was still hard core solid scsi all the way
<nikolapdp>
heh nice
<geist>
honestly one of the best things about scsi being so ubiquitous on everything but PCs back in the 80s through 90s is it's so easy to emulate it nowadays
<geist>
i can take exactly the same scsi2sd card and move it between PDP11s, vaxen, sun machines, macs, PCs and it just works
<zid>
until nvme everything was just.. pretending to be scsi anyway, which was kind of funny
<zid>
ide? nah that's scsi. sd card? also scsi. Sata ssd? also ssi.
<geist>
well, not particularly
<nikolapdp>
sata ssd is still sata lol
<geist>
yah and that's just ATA over a thing (unless it's SAS, which is a different thing using the same physical)
<geist>
and ATA itself is totally hacked together extension of some early drive
<geist>
SD is SD/MMC which is also completely unrelated
<nikolapdp>
extension of scsi no?
<geist>
no. but usb mass storage has scsi in it
<zid>
They're all just "imagine scsi but we don't wanna actually pay money"
<nikolapdp>
sd does support some ide more or something doesn0t it
<geist>
that's compactflash
<geist>
that's just IDE
<zid>
CF adapters suuper common in retro machines
<nikolapdp>
yeah i know that, i meant that sd had some super slow ide like mode
<zid>
SD has a bitbang mode
<nikolapdp>
oh that too
<zid>
and a proper ide mode
<zid>
afaik
<geist>
yah, that's just SPI mode but it's the same control messages that SD/MMC has
<geist>
no, no IDE in SD/MMC
<zid>
my Wii has a broken sd slot in some respect, and one of them is broken
<zid>
idk which though!
<zid>
but some things work and some things don't see the SD
<nikolapdp>
):
<geist>
i say SD/MMC because SD and MMC are basically the same spec, derived from SDIO, which was basiclaly originally just a SPI bus with some command protocol on top of it, that got extended in two different directions
<zid>
Thankfully the thing that can't see it is the thing I don't careabout
<zid>
and the thing that can is the thing I do
<geist>
but SD/MMC is close enough that a single software stack can detect and handle the difference
* CompanionCube
associates sdio more with being the thing the wifi is attached to on the rpi
<geist>
think of SD as being a single bidirectional SPI bus with say a 40 bit command to read something, then read response, etc.
<geist>
but then externded to add more lines. first you add say 4 data lines that are different from the command line
<geist>
then you start cranking up the clock, doing DDR, running faster and faster
<geist>
then switching to 8 data lines, etc
<geist>
all over the last 20 years, the spec just adds more and more modes
<geist>
now the current mode is something like 200Mhz DDR 8 bit wide
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<geist>
note there's some new SD express thing that switches to a different model. it's just PCIe with some new protocol on top (but not NVME i think)
<CompanionCube>
e.g. 'new ultra high speed DDR50 SDHC card at address 5048'
<nikolapdp>
PCIE PCIE PCIE
<geist>
CompanionCube: and yes, SDIO is still around. was for the longest time used to talk to wifi chips. it uses the SD/MMC/SDIO command set that isn't concerned with moving blocks of data
<geist>
and gives you some sort of register level protocol with some bulk transfer mechanisms
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<geist>
iirc the first SDIO started with something like a palm pilot to talk to external modems
<geist>
then it just got picke dup and extended by everyone
<geist>
i've written a SD/MMC/SDIO embedded stack at least once for a few companies, but haven't touched it much in the last 15 years, but been following along with the subsequent extensions
<nikolapdp>
cool
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<geist>
wikipedia doesn't have a good history of this stuff. the way it's written it sort of implies that SD came out of nowhere, but i know for a fact that there was a longer history that goes farther back
<geist>
but it's sort of written from the point of view of the victors
<geist>
since SD and MMC competed for a while, and MMC basically lost, except in embedded contexts
<geist>
lots of phone flash and whatnot is emmc
<nikolapdp>
yeah
<nikolapdp>
not just phones, some laptops and sbcs too
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<heat>
apparently windbg supports ELF dumps and linux kdumps now