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<kof673>
> you could argue it is BLOATED (re: templates etc. the other day) not arguing either way, but there is surely some level of "compiler complexity" and run-time, for JITting and similar, etc. this is just to say, output code size is just part of the equation (but maybe the only part that one cares about)
<kof673>
whatever values of "BLOATED" will differ in dynamic world versus "compile once, ship the binary"
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<kof673>
likewise, some level of "boostrap complexity" too, again, different people may or may not care
<kof673>
what i mean is a bloated compiler maybe can output less bloated code :)
<kof673>
time/space tradeoff
<kof673>
and if all you care about is the final binary size, that "bloat" may be fine
<kof673>
re: duplicate code sequences, make me think if you inlined everything or otherwise collapsed to a single function, would that kill performance having to jump and shuffle things more? but, that would seemingly be a good fit for massive "code dedupe", but maybe only useful on "small" programs
<kof673>
someone tell me why that is wrong thinking...somehow would want something where it can all be analyzed at once
<gog>
it's going to depend a lot on locality
<gog>
if the function you need to call isn't in cache, then it's got a larger cost than an inline
<kof673>
*be analyzed as a whole, akin to a single function, even if it did not actually literally get rewritten such, whether "source" or "output"
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<gog>
i feel attacked and validated simultaneously
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<sham1>
Good vibes only
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<ghostbuster>
is darwin/xnu the only modern descendant of Mach?
<nortti>
depends on whether you could hurd as modern
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<heat>
webdev
<heat>
i mean direct descendent yeah probably together with GNU hurd
<ghostbuster>
.. is hurd still alive? wikipedia says last release 2016 which is still more recent than i would've guessed
<nikolapdp>
it is actually, they are porting to x64 :)
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<ghostbuster>
looks like there were also attempts to port hurd away from mach
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<ghostbuster>
and xnu is a hybrid of bsd and mach, right? mach for tasks and virtual memory but then a bsd posix layer on top of that?
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<heat>
hurd alive lol
<heat>
i mean, one has to define alive
<heat>
i would wager onyx is more alive than hurd in most metrics, with the same amount of users
<nortti>
debian gnu/onyx when?
<heat>
i'm a debian hater so never
<heat>
fedora gnu/onyx some day
<nortti>
does fedora care about anything other than linux?
<nortti>
I thought debian was pretty alone in that
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<heat>
not really
<heat>
does debian?
<heat>
they "care"
<heat>
with many ""
<zid>
does hurd support keyboards
<heat>
no
<heat>
typewriters only
<zid>
feature parity with onyx then
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<Ermine>
users as those who daily drive the system?
<gog>
hi
<Ermine>
hi gog
<Ermine>
ghostbuster: hurd had release in 2021 or so
<Ermine>
heat: btw remember, we're competing with sortix atm
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<netbsduser>
ghostbuster: it's mach as it was originally
<netbsduser>
mach was built inside a 4.3BSD kernel and subsumed some of its responsibilities
<netbsduser>
later it was able to build and run independently, but NeXTSTEP predated that move
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<heat>
Ermine: we compete with everyone
<heat>
but i'd say windows is our main competitor
<heat>
year of the onyx desktop is near
<heat>
watch out
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<wantyapps>
Hey everyone o/
<wantyapps>
Has anyone ever tried porting glibc/something close to it, to an embedded system?
<nortti>
embedded system in what sense?
<wantyapps>
nortti: I just finished writing a basic kernel with GDT, IDT, etc.. (keyboard works, shell exists) and wonder if I should try to compile some more... heavy software _on it_
<wantyapps>
for example, port vim and nvim
<wantyapps>
(excuse my (probably) bad idea, it's 01:19 here)
<nortti>
you don't need glibc for that, but you will likely be missing stuff in e.g. your terminal emulation that they'd want
<wantyapps>
I am working on a POSIX-compliant shell at the moment, and some more stuff for proper emulation. But again, this is a relatively fresh kernel
<wantyapps>
anyhow
<wantyapps>
Good night nortti
<wantyapps>
cya this time tomorrow
<heat>
define embedded
<heat>
glibc can run anywhere if you have enough memory and /probably/ 32-bits
<wantyapps>
heat: Honestly, I don't know. I probably meant independent, not embedded
<heat>
i have a glibc port
<wantyapps>
dang, that's cool
<heat>
i have a musl port
<heat>
i've ported a bunch of 3rd party software, sortie has ported a *lot* of 3rd party software, managarm AFAIK also has a lot of ported software
<wantyapps>
Although I did read on r/osdev that porting glibc/musl isn't ideal because of compatibility and just the amount of effort
<heat>
including wayland I think?
<heat>
my system is pretty similar to linux so there isn't a lot of effort to be made
<wantyapps>
that's _genuinely_ cool
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<heat>
it is similar to linux because 1) i like linux 2) linux tends to be _okay_ 3) it tactically takes less effort to be a linux-ish system
<wantyapps>
Understandable. Do you run linux on your main machines?
<heat>
yes
<wantyapps>
I run arch and others, but I'm starting to think about moving to BSD
<heat>
like if you ask the freebsd ppl for a chromium port, they'll point you to their linuxulator that tries hard to pretend to be linux
<wantyapps>
for the sake of it
<heat>
it Just Works
<wantyapps>
huh.
<heat>
actually for chromium they might have a native port
<heat>
but for most shit (like vscode lets say) they rely on this
<wantyapps>
but I get your point
<wantyapps>
Guess I won't be moving soon, I am kinda dependent on linux native packages
<wantyapps>
also, It's nice being a linux contributor... working on linux :p
<heat>
linuxulator is a binary-level compat layer even, because the base BSD system is ofc very similar to linux as well, the system calls are very similar
<heat>
mostly because of historical raisins but now tactically too as there's little to port
<MrBonkers>
Managarm has indeed a metric truckload of ports
<wantyapps>
I need to read more about BSD before considering it as an option.
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<MrBonkers>
including wayland yes, but also stuff like GTK and Qt and there’s work on GNOME and KDE stuff
<heat>
MrBonkers: is there a port list?
<wantyapps>
Although I am, again, pretty dependent on the native linux workflow, so... won't be leaving soon
<bslsk05>
managarm/mlibc - Portable C standard library (106 forks/755 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<wantyapps>
and managram is an Operating System?
<wantyapps>
nevermind - I'll RTFM
<MrBonkers>
sure is
<wantyapps>
good night everyone!
<wantyapps>
cya later
<MrBonkers>
good night!
<wantyapps>
asm volatile("hlt")
<heat>
is The Managarm Project some sort of copyright asssignment thing you have
<heat>
cuz that sounds very googley
<heat>
with a CLA too
<MrBonkers>
As far as I’m aware that isn’t copyrighted
<MrBonkers>
(I sure hope it isn’t cuz we don’t have it :)
<MrBonkers>
and we don’t do CLA’s either. Just behave lol
<heat>
CLA != CoC btw
<MrBonkers>
We have neither
<heat>
CLA is basically what you sign when companies don't know how to do open source
<MrBonkers>
Yeah
<Ermine>
heat: Windows is a boss
<wantyapps>
just popping in: Looked at the github for s/managram/managarm and it looks fantastic! Even glxgears! will absolutely read the code thorughly
<wantyapps>
gniht
<wantyapps>
gnight
<Ermine>
final boss even
<heat>
onyx is windows' final boss
<MrBonkers>
Ah the times where glxgears was top level
<MrBonkers>
nowadays I flex gnome-calculator and WebKitGTK. Maybe the old chromium screenshot (that bitrotted away unfortunately)
<heat>
do you have drm running on some server thing i assume managarm has
<heat>
*probably* not the kernel
<Ermine>
when you play uno inverse card
<MrBonkers>
(KDE equivalent of gnome calculator is also a thing locally if you prefer QT)
<MrBonkers>
DRM runs in userspace yes
<heat>
do you have a link?
<heat>
i've been meaning to port DRM Eventually
<MrBonkers>
Gimme a sec, I can link you the code
<wantyapps>
I remember looking at an 11-year-old post about #osdev @ freenode
<wantyapps>
it was about a competition to see who ports glxgears the fastest
<qookie>
heat: drm is a shared library linked into the graphics driver servers :^)