<klys_>
of couse MAME is still missing a rom from the decmate2 RX50 controller card rom (though I think the RX02 stuff should go there) except then I don't have that controller card, etc.
<bslsk05>
texelec.com: 34 to 50-Pin 8-Inch Floppy Adapter - TexElec
<geist>
thats the same guy that sells the commander x16
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<mjg>
8"?
<mjg>
i admit i never seen one in action :(
<mjg>
i did grow up on 5.25" tho
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<sskras>
me too :)
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<geist>
Same, though I do have a lot of 5.25"s still
<geist>
as much as I love retro computer tech though, floppy disks are just too finicky for me. I can't get over that every time you use one you're slowly destroying it
<geist>
and old ones are just waiting to be destroyed next time you stick it in the drive
<GeDaMo>
Isn't that true for flash too though?
<geist>
yah but flash you can just get more :)
<geist>
in 30 years or so yeah we'll be pretty upset that all the period SSDs are dead
<mjg>
i don't know if people will give af about ssds
<geist>
probably not, but when it all becomes retro even if it's not sexy now folks may be interested in it
<mjg>
i mean in that very context
<geist>
OTOH you can easily emulate floppies and hard drives now with flash, so in 30 years you'll just emulate the whole thing with whatever is the thing then
<mjg>
there is always a limbo where nobody gives af
<geist>
yeah
<geist>
it's like a dead zone where 10 years on it's just old shit, and 20 years on it starts to get interesting
<geist>
sort of an uncanny valley
<mjg>
for me for example there 8-bit atari holds a sentimental value since it was my first computer
<geist>
oh oh speaking of I just got one of the Atari 400 minis. it's really cute!
<mjg>
apart from that maybe i could get some early 00s high end poc for some gaming, again sentimental
<mjg>
but past that i have hard time imagining why i would give a fuck about a laptop i had later
<mjg>
it's not a milestone "personally" or in the history of computing
<geist>
yah that's why I had to get the precise 386 model I had as a kid when it showed up on ebay
<geist>
it's not even a particularly good computer, but it was the exact model I had
<mjg>
dude my first pc is still in the attic at my parents
<mjg>
486dx2 50mhz
<mjg>
i got you beat on that aspect then :p
<geist>
oh heck yeah keep that
<mjg>
frankly though i could not be fucked to even check if it's still running
<geist>
yeah I wished we haddnt junked the 386 years ago, but it was in the dark period when it was not particularly valuable
<geist>
aww come on! that's nostalgia
<geist>
next time you visit, get it out
<mjg>
i have some nostalgia for *second* pc, a p75
<mjg>
that 486 was total crap
<mjg>
i only had 3 friends with pcs at the time and all of them had something faster
<mjg>
including a different 486
<mjg>
:x
<geist>
yah I remember my 386sx 16 was a lot slower than my friends 386dx 20. of course it's obvious now why it was a lot faster but I had no idea what the diff was between sx and dx
<geist>
I just wanted to dial into BBSes and get WAREZ and play games!
<mjg>
and by faster i mean it was night and day
<mjg>
fuckin' openbsd vs linux
<mjg>
migrating to p75 was a massive jump
<mjg>
i remember playing an mp3 took 100% of cpu time
<mjg>
:d
<geist>
heh yeah I remember playing a mp3 on a friends Packard bell 486. windows 3.11. I think it was the original fraunhaufer mp3 player
<geist>
before winamp
<geist>
and yeah pegged the cpu
<mjg>
i think i "benchmarked" this later on some celeron 300, on that sucker it was about 25%?
<geist>
that's about right. something like 50 MIPS to play an mp3
<mjg>
this is where i learned about the power of code optimization tho
<geist>
I remember looking at the ipod software about 2005 and at the time the ipad had a dual core arm7tdmi, and one of the cores was dedicated to decoding mp3/aac/etc
<mjg>
i found a random-ass windows program to encode .wav into .mp3
<mjg>
it would take forever
<mjg>
then i found lame and fuck me, it was turbo fast in comparison
<geist>
and they had it tuned so that it would change the frequency of the cpu to have just enough headroom to decode the file, base don the bitrate
<geist>
and iirc it was something like 30-40mhz
<mjg>
the one nice thing about that period is that any new cpu you got, everything got way faster
<geist>
yah totally
<geist>
late 90s early 2000s was the peak of it in my mind
<mjg>
now webdev stay vigillant to make sure this does not happen
<geist>
before SMP/SMT was starting to be the way
<geist>
not that shit is not faster now, but up till about 2005 it was single core just doubling every 18 months and it was pretty exciting
<mjg>
which years did you attend hs?
<mjg>
did you have "computer science" or some such in there
<geist>
1991-1995, graduated in 95
<mjg>
huh that's early enough to probably not?
<geist>
yeah no, we had a computer class, but it was out of date even at the time. we had like first gen Compaq portable 286s (like 1985 tech)
<mjg>
:P
<geist>
it was laughable at the time. did some pascal programming
<geist>
but I had ben programming some the 80s on my apple 2 and whatnot. BASIC and 6502 asm
<geist>
honestly PCs were far less interesting to me at the time. I saw x86 as a piece of trash and no fun
<geist>
I didn't get interested in os hackery until college, and a few years in at that
<geist>
like '96 or so
<mjg>
pc were always bullshit on that front
<geist>
yah
<mjg>
you know i got fucked over out of atari st as a kid? :(
<geist>
oh dang
<mjg>
ya
<geist>
I went straight from apple 2 to PC
<geist>
only later collected stuff like c64s and macs
<mjg>
there was a dude who had 1040st with tons of hw for it
<mjg>
and floppies
<mjg>
and was looking to give it away
<mjg>
i knew the guy in passing and he knew my grandma
<mjg>
he wanted to give it to me
<mjg>
but my grandma being anti-computer said it's bad
<mjg>
so...
<geist>
:(
<mjg>
poland, 90s
<geist>
I remember having the argument with my granddad about computers. he was a rancher in Texas and I remember going on about how computers ain't gonna raise cows, etc
<mjg>
:d
<geist>
which is actually silly, because really having a computer to track stuff would be useful
<mjg>
my dad said computers are only good to do stuff in other fields, thus one needs a degree in, say, civil engineering
<mjg>
and then one can make money using computers
<mjg>
he also said there is no point going into computers anywya, the future is wellness industry
<mjg>
i like to think about it when people claim parents always know best
<mjg>
you are just too young to get it
<geist>
heh yeah
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<mjg>
but if it so happened being in IT paid pooorly i would probably still be doing it anyway
<mjg>
so there is that
<mjg>
maybe overall code quality would be better as all the grifters would go elsewhere
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<nikolapdp>
heh
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* Ermine
gives gog a piece of cheese
* gog
is fascinated
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* leg7
notices there are worms growing inside the cheese
<bslsk05>
sandpile.org: sandpile.org -- x86 architecture -- model specific registers
<vin>
heat: I would like to check the bit values of CR3[62] and CR3[61] from the userspace. This checks if LAM is enabled. If not enabled I want to update CR3[62] to 1 and keep CR3[61] to 0.
<heat>
you can't do that
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<heat>
linux gives you some arch_prctl calls you can use
<vin>
You mean I can't do that in the userpsace? Sec 6.1 of Intel Instruction reference says "LAM support by the processor is enumerated by the CPUID feature flag CPUID.(EAX=07H, ECX=01H):EAX.LAM[bitEnabling and configuration of LAM is controlled by the following new bits in control registers: CR3[62] (LAM_U48), CR3[61] (LAM_U57)"
<vin>
I see
<heat>
you can't touch cr3 from userspac
<heat>
due to the obvious security vulnerabilities
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<heat>
like, i don't know why you're looking at the SDM, someone has carefully read all of that and carefully implemented it in the kernel
<heat>
you just need to arch_prctl and ask for N tag bits, then use em
<heat>
you have 0 control over any of this in userspace, except actually asking for tagged addresses
<bslsk05>
github.com: linux-next/tools/testing/selftests/x86/lam.c at f529a6d274b3b8c75899e949649d231298f30a32 · ColinIanKing/linux-next · GitHub
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<heat>
yes it enabled LAM
<heat>
that's a good example
<heat>
IIRC fork'd processes also have the LAM enabled, but it'll clear off as soon as you execve
<vin>
Makes sense, I noticed that LAM on intel is only available on Sierra Forest, Grand Ridge, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake. I don't have access to any of them. Do people test LAM features using sde64 (emulator)?
<zid>
They're tested by intel, then submitted to lkml
<zid>
by intel
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<vin>
Yes testing is done by intel but if others want to icorporate the feature in their software, what do they do?
<zid>
buy one
<zid>
or get your OS to be something people use
<vin>
zid: I don't think you can buy any server with the support yet
<zid>
so then there's no problem
<zid>
you have no customers to demand support from you
<heat>
there's was a random qemu patch somewhere for LAM support
<heat>
for tcg ofc
<heat>
like, all these fancy features and whitepapers and all that jazz are published many years in advance of actual deployment
<heat>
linux has supported PML5 since, what, 2016? it was first deployed around 2020
<bslsk05>
lwn.net: RE: [PATCH v8 00/33] x86: enable FRED for x86-64 [LWN.net]
<heat>
looks like they're ready to ship FRED hw
<heat>
1st half 2024 on their intel cloud whatever thing
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<zid>
fredfredfred
<heat>
frederick
<sham1>
freredick
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<nikolapdp>
heat was this the thing they want to use to skip the whole 16<->32<->64 transition thing during boot
<zid>
that's x86s
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<zid>
FRED is fixing swapgs
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<zid>
They announced it around the same time I was implementing irqs so I was hype for it, and now it's actually coming, amaze
<zid>
speaking of amaze, project hail mary is getting a movie adaptation
<zid>
unsurprising after how well the martian did
<GeDaMo>
The book's great
<zid>
the book's amaze*
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<GeDaMo>
People keep saying that and I only vaguely remember it from the book :P
<zid>
rocky never conjugated verbs properly (or rather, the synth)
<zid>
so he called everything AMAZE
<zid>
when's the next bobiverse book
<GeDaMo>
I saw something about later this year
<zid>
september 5th
<zid>
kk
<zid>
and has been optioned to universal apparently
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<GeDaMo>
A Rendezvous with Rama movie has been in development for more than 20 years :P
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<kof673>
> having a computer to track stuff would be useful farmers do in fact "use computers"
<kof673>
you see similar things with stock traders with 6 monitors decrying the people who sit at a computer all day
<kof673>
and drug dealers with their cell phones, those lazy computer people
<kof673>
i would be the last person to say technology is magically "good" but much "opposition" is just an image thing, it is not seen as real work
<kof673>
and if you think drug dealers and wall street has morals good luck to you lol
<kof673>
besides, you need to learn cursive, because after elementary school that is what everything will be!
<kof673>
in any case, this is arguably related to code quality: because some managers view people as interchangeable, throw away code, get to market, get the money, get in, get out
<kof673>
it is a victim of its own success somewhat: computers are everywhere, roads are everywhere, why do we need construction workers? the problem is solved lol
<kof673>
i'd say it is reverse bikeshed phenomenon in a way: things appear to be "solved" and looks to be simple/easy, anyone can do it, etc.
<kof673>
if one only interacts with a final end result, then all the work that went into that is not visible, and it is just people dicking around clicking things all day, gamers lol
<kof673>
why do we need more people who just play candy crush all day etc. lol
<zid>
hey that's looking like good news though
<zid>
villenveuve is reportedly actually writing a script for it
<zid>
after 20 years of morgan freeman going "yea I wanna make it, just need a script"
<kof673>
lol sorry for length i just mean people will literally badmouth "computer people" (health, banking, other) as they literally are using a computer depending on it for their livelihood lol
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<geist>
huh, villeneuve is writing a script for rama?
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<geist>
i thought he was working on the next dune movie
<zid>
He's directing that right?
<zid>
I assume he gets a lot of work hours that are empty on top of directing a movie for the couple of weeks the shoot actually happens
<zid>
(plus a couple of weeks of meetings, and some editing and press and stuff)
<geist>
i seriously doubt that. he sounds like a serious perfectionist
<zid>
well a shoot only lasts so long
<zid>
it's expensive and the producers organize it to last the least amount of time possible
<zid>
equipment rental etc over the least possible time
<GeDaMo>
Possibly he spends a lot of time travelling
<zid>
Yea I imagine most of his job is actually meetings with studio execs :P
<kof673>
mjg: i am not disagreeing with "webdev" but in a post-agile world j/k where supposedly the "stakeholders" all supposedly meet and design products together...why do "bad" projects get funded? why do managers choose "bad" projects? why do "consumers" and "clients" ? the dev is only one tiny little part of the picture
<kof673>
you need never hear other lines of work say this "noone has to buy, noone has to sell"
<kof673>
*you would
<kof673>
why do school churn out "web devs"? etc.
<kof673>
*schools it seems a way for all the other players to avoid looking in the mirror
<kof673>
socialize the profits, outsource the responsibility lol
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<kof673>
*socialize/capitalize in any case, all the other "stakeholders" have vanished when accountability is summoned lol
<heat>
geist, IMPLEMENT FRED!!!!
<geist>
oh yeah?
<geist>
did fred get rolled out?
<heat>
it's getting rolled out
<heat>
they're merging the FRED code for this linux release
<bslsk05>
lwn.net: RE: [PATCH v8 00/33] x86: enable FRED for x86-64 [LWN.net]
<heat>
it's Coming Soon(tm)
<zid>
fredfredfredfred
<puck>
goes well with the asrock rack PAUL and TOMMY and
<puck>
s/and $//
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<zid>
I prefer huawei extended attribute tables
<zid>
and z80 index descriptors
<heat>
puck, hey you should enable the bslsk05 sed thingy
<puck>
maybe yeah
<geist>
neat. i wonder what intel cores are getting fred first
<heat>
xeon probably, then a few generations later it comes to desktop and laptop
<heat>
it's how they did PML5
<zid>
no no, it will be in *half* the platinum xeons
<zid>
but all of the bronze ones
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<zid>
then in half the gold, but only 1 platinum, and none of the silver or bronze
<zid>
then next gen it will be in the 18800kf
<zid>
but nothing else
<zid>
oh wait no this is avx isn't it
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<mjg>
where does amd stand in this
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<childlikempress>
they'll support it across the lineup but half the functionality will be microcoded and super slow
<zid>
ooh even better
<zid>
I hope we get FREDv2 etc as cpuflags soon
<zid>
because of a bunch of exploits, and whether it's fast enough to use etc
<zid>
we're already up to avx10.1
<zid>
and avx10 isn't even out
<geist>
iirc AMD had some sort of competing idea out, but it was far less ambitious than FRED
<geist>
iirc FRED was nice, but had some fatal flaw for fuchsia that i dunno how to deal with
<heat>
oh yeah?
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<geist>
i think iirc it removes the io bitmap
<heat>
oh
<heat>
yeah probably removes the tss?
<geist>
since there's no such TSS equivalent
<heat>
right
<geist>
i dont think we use it much, but it's possible for a user driver to need it if it needs to use an io range
<geist>
which is fairly far and few between, but legacy stuff like ps2 keyboards and whatnot...
<geist>
i wonder when qemu will get fred. i'll probably fiddle with it there first
<geist>
havne't really internalized how easy it is to support fred and not fred in the same build. or is it different enough that it's cleaner/easier to make a new sub-arch of x86
<mjg>
would you even care in fuchsia to support both?
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<heat>
geist, could you force all outb/w/l (and in) to a syscall?
<geist>
probalby would have to do that, which is clearly lame.
<geist>
but i'm sure that's the worst case answer
<heat>
or do some nasty x86 fault emulation by looking at the instruction
<heat>
that would be EPIC
<geist>
yah sadly trapping from ring3 you dont really get all the assist you get when trapping via a vmexit on intel and amd
<geist>
unless.... fred does that?
<geist>
if it decoded it for you and put it in the fred exception then that might not be so bad
<heat>
who knows
<heat>
that'd be cool
<heat>
but i bet the port io insns don't have that many forms
<heat>
should be okay to interpret manually
<geist>
right. iirc intel and amd hypervisor traps have basically full decode assists for the io isntructions
<geist>
you really only need to know which ones they are, and if it's an io with an #imm8 what the immediate is
<geist>
otherwise all the info is in eax and ecx (or is it edx?
<geist>
)
<heat>
i'd love if FRED was a huge exception rework but, from the little of the patches i read, it seems like it keeps the old 32 exception vectors and everything
<heat>
i'd love if GPF could get broken down into sensible-er exceptions
<zid>
fred doesn't go too far enough yea
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<zid>
honzuki is laaaate, save me
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