<klange>
Not that that is a surprise, I switched to this source port for the x86-64 build specifically because it was more portable than the prboom builds I was using previously.
<klange>
hm, what audio options do I have...
<klange>
I'm pretty sure I can just give this an AC'97.
<klange>
I would have to bake the module into the kernel as I haven't actually implemented module relocations yet, but I have no reason to think it wouldn't work?
<klange>
oh right I have no idea how it's going to delivery the interrupt for the DMA queue...
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<c2a1>
Can one theoretically synchronize a video frame with the refresh rate of one's monitor using vga or vbe
<c2a1>
What do video drivers for radeon and intel cards do diff
<c2a1>
*differently if not
<Mutabah>
I don't think VBE (VESA BIOS Extensions) supports a vsync interrupt
<Mutabah>
but iirc base VGA does have that ability
<c2a1>
Huh. Vsync is the name, that sounds familiar
* c2a1
reads
<Mutabah>
Modern video cards likely expose something similar, and probably also support hardware double-buffering
<c2a1>
Vga does? So I can do tear free windows on windows 98?
<c2a1>
How is vsync accomplished usually
<klange>
double buffering and a flip signal
<Mutabah>
OR, do all your rendering during vblank
<c2a1>
Does the video card communicate with the monitor in some way to determine the monitor refresh rate?
<Mutabah>
The video card sends a signal at a given framerate
<Mutabah>
e.g. 60Hz, the monitor deals with what it's given
<Mutabah>
(although, there is a channel for the montor to communicate what modes [refresh and resolution] it supports)
<c2a1>
Rendering during vblank sounds slow. Is that why a lot of software doesnt use it
<Mutabah>
It's not slow, it's just constrained
<c2a1>
Constrained how?
<moon-child>
supposing your frame rate is lower than the monitor's refresh rate
<Mutabah>
Well, you only have around 5-10% of total CPU time for rendering
<Mutabah>
this is why double-buffering exists
<c2a1>
So if anything in software(say for instance, the scheduler) causes rendering to be out of pace with 60hz things mess up
<Mutabah>
While the video card is transmitting the previous frame, you're rendering into the new one. then you swap what buffer the video card sends during vblank
<Mutabah>
Important note about video interfaces: They're still based on CRT timing
<moon-child>
and crt colour correction!
<c2a1>
Interesting. What interfaces do you mean?
<Mutabah>
VGA, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, ...
<Mutabah>
(Really modern DP supports a variable frame-rate, but pretty sure the encoded signal is still based around CRT timings)
<c2a1>
Wow
<Mutabah>
DVI and HDMI (same wire protocol) are just digital versions of VGA, and VGA is designed to drive a three-gun CRT
<klange>
In the beginning, there was film. You had a bunch of individual frames and you had to swap them out repeatedly, and we did that with flashing lights and fast reels.
<Mutabah>
so there's pauses between each scanline, and a longer pause after each "field" (frame) for the electron gun to rese
<klange>
And then television was invented, and it worked by scanning a beam across a CRT repeatedly.
<klange>
And for a very long time we literally encoded electronic motion pictures by recording the signals that went to that beam.
<c2a1>
I've read a bit about that
<c2a1>
Had no idea hdmi was still based on that
<clever>
Mutabah: yeah, dvi/hdmi so closely follow crt timings, that you could convert it to analog vga with as little as 1 or 2 pixels of lag added, and just keep the timings unchanged
<c2a1>
klange: i'm guessing you mean vhs
<klange>
I don't just mean vhs.
<clever>
but something like hdmi to composite, may need a scaler, and buffering at least a few scanlines, and if the fps is different, whole frames
<klange>
But literally "video". "Video" is TV format recordings.
<klange>
It's only very recently with digital video that it has meant anything other than that.
<Griwes>
fun fact, the blanking intervals is how you communicate the resolution
<Griwes>
and digital screens happen to *also* have good tolerances
<clever>
Griwes: how does that really work?
<c2a1>
Huh. I need to reread how that looks on an oscilloscope because i'm having trouble visualizing that
<Griwes>
I've once accidentally set one of my screens (still using it, maybe even the one IRC is on right now) to... 1281x721
<Griwes>
because of an off-by-one
<Mutabah>
Ben Eater (on youtube) did a wonderful video sequence on how VGA works
<Griwes>
and it happily accepted that as a valid resolution lol
<clever>
for a purely analog setup, i imagine you would just tune a sawtooth waveform to match the hsync and vsync rates
<clever>
and then just trace it out with the electron beam
<clever>
you dont care about resolution
<c2a1>
Griwes: how is that possible
<clever>
c2a1: if you lack a data-valid signal, then there is no real difference between the front/back porch and the active area
<Griwes>
well, for digital, the microcontroller of the screen just locks onto the pixel clock in the signal
<clever>
the front/back porch are basically just overscan, areas where sync isnt active, but the image isnt visible
<Griwes>
and calculates the resolution from the lengths of the blanking intervals
<Griwes>
and clearly it was easier to make it do the calculations on the fly rather than hard-code a list of supported resolutions
<clever>
Griwes: i can see that being possible for hdmi/dvi, but there is no real clear pixel clock on vga
<c2a1>
What is overscan used for today mainly
<Griwes>
oh. I didn't mention it was hdmi, did I ;p
<clever>
c2a1: for hdmi, the encoding on the wire has a kind of data-valid flag, a pixel can either contain a 6bit int, or a 24bit int, the 6bit mode is used for all blanking periods, and 2 bits are hsync/vsync, in 24bit mode, thats just the raw rgb888 color
<clever>
so there is no real overscan, the monitor knows exactly which pixels have image data
<clever>
but there is still a front/back porch, between the sync pulse, and the image data
<zid>
also fun fact, horizontal resolution in CRT land is a complete lie
<clever>
yeah
<clever>
its just dumping the analog rgb right into the electron guns
<clever>
and you can change the signal however fast you want
<zid>
It's an analogue sample that just gets sampled a bunch of times, you can use as much bw in that analogue signal as you like to add a bunch of detail
<clever>
or as slow as you want
<zid>
s/sample/signal
<zid>
so you need precisely 0 different software/hardware to do 128392329x480 as 640x480, you just need a nicer piece of glass to project it onto :P
<clever>
but in terms of output hw, something like the rpi, measures the hsync hfront and bback periods in terms of pixel counts
<clever>
and all of them, including hactive, are 16bit counters
<clever>
but the 2d scaler core only has 12bit fields for width/height
<Mutabah>
zid: Well, colour CRTs have "pixels" (indivudal colour cells)
<zid>
hence "nicer piece of glass"
<clever>
so you have a hard limit of 4095x4095 for your max res
<zid>
but they actually don't, they have an aperture grill
<zid>
which is like a scren on a microwave
<zid>
the actual phosphor tends to be continuous
<zid>
oscilloscopes don't tend to have pixels like that, which i why they're kinda blurry and glowy
<clever>
Griwes: but what are the rules, about how the blanking interval declares the resolution? cant an hdmi display just count the pixels?
<c2a1>
Leaded glass or am I wrong
<zid>
yea leaded glass usually
<zid>
for radiation and stiffness
<clever>
zid: oscilloscopes are also monochrome, no grid to break up "pixels"
<zid>
but yea, vsync is a pita on a PC
<Griwes>
clever, it can... and it's probably what the microcontroller did in that case
<c2a1>
Didn't the inventor of the microwave discover its food preparation uses by experimenting with a device that lacked it(or a cage thing)
<c2a1>
*oven
<clever>
Griwes: but there are a lot of modern displays, that absolutely crap their pants, if you get the timing off by even 1 pixel
<zid>
microwave transmitter dishes were common and well known to heat things up as far as I know
<zid>
getting them *small* enough is the issue for ovens
<clever>
Griwes: for example, 1366x768 displays, often have an odd number in one of the horizontal timing params
<zid>
interlaced modes also have a required off by one
<clever>
Griwes: but the pi4 is operating in a ddr mode, 2 pixels per clock, and can never do an odd number!
<clever>
Griwes: and if you use the wrong timings, the display just doesnt show anything
<zid>
you have to hold the sync for half a scanline 'too long' to offset the odd field
<clever>
zid: from what i remember, ntsc just has the vsync being held for more scanlines?
<c2a1>
How well documented are the pis peripherals
<zid>
as opposed to?
<Griwes>
clever, yes, which is why I was really impressed by the screen I had when I figured out why the image is fscked ;p
<clever>
c2a1: depends on which peripheral your asking about
<zid>
ntsc and pal are pretty different, timings wise
<c2a1>
x86 peripherals. Like storage/video/etc.
<clever>
Griwes: oh, and i mis-configured my vga output when i was driving a crt many months ago
<clever>
Griwes: i had configured the hw for interlaced mode, but fed undefined data into the odd field
<c2a1>
sata vs sdhc interface(whatever the pi 4 uses). Vga vs videocore.
<clever>
so you got one frame of the right length and timing, and then one frame that was 3 seconds long, lol
<clever>
the status led on my crt, just blinked on&off in sync with that
<clever>
it got 2 vsync at the right distance, turned on, wait no its not valid, turned off, lol
<zid>
They're both 15kHz but it's all spaced out completely differently
<clever>
c2a1: the pi4 has no sata controllers
<c2a1>
I know
<c2a1>
I was comparing apples to oranges in yalls books maybe
<clever>
c2a1: the SD 2 main SD interfaces are following the sdhci specs, so just pick up the official SD docs
<clever>
c2a1: the video output hw has no official docs, but does have linux source, and ive been writing docs for them, and simpler example code
<c2a1>
clever: I am way too slow to look at those and understand it lol but maybe I'll try
<clever>
zid: hmmm, that reminds me, how does hsync and vsync differ, on a composite signal?
<clever>
zid: this might be why the composite generator on the rpi ignores the timing parameters configured in the normal place, because the normal place doesnt support long pulses like that
<c2a1>
clever: I wouldn't even want to look at that because I'm iffy on the gpl
<zid>
you just.. hold sync for like.. 30 lines rather than 4 us
<clever>
zid: ah, so its more of a combined sync, and the length is the axis
<c2a1>
I don't know exactly what qualifies as fair use for example code so I steer clear of most of it
<zid>
that original diagram shows it
<zid>
the pink/blue bar at the left is the sync/porch stuff for the line
<zid>
2 microsecond pulses vs 30 microsecond pulses, the right combo makes the display do the right things to the aiming of the gun via 'magic' :p
<clever>
c2a1: the rpi's 2d core is basically made up of 3 layers, the first is a sprite/scaler core, the 2nd is generating all of the timings, and the 3rd converts the digital signal into something you can pass out of the system
<klange>
something I'm going to have to look at soon
<klange>
now that all the basics are in place, it's time to get this running on real hardware
<clever>
but some outputs like composite, seem to ignore the timing from the 2nd layer, (possibly because of the wonky sync pulse lenghts), and just expects each frame to have the right number of pixels
<clever>
zid: oh right, have you seen the insanity behind secam?
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<zid>
nah never looked at secam
<zid>
never owned or cared about a device that used it
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<zid>
doesn't look too insane
<zid>
just a different way of solving the same problem, but starting from the weird 819 line signals not the 625 / 576 ones
<zid>
PAL60 is the one true format
<clever>
zid: from what ive read, it solves a lot of the color problems of ntsc/pal
<zid>
ntsc is the one with color problems
<zid>
pal's just.. fine
<clever>
with ntsc (and i think pal), the color is encoded as 3 signals at once
<clever>
the low freq absolute value is the luma, like a dc offset
<zid>
all three are systems for adding colour to monochrome
<clever>
then you have phase offset and the ac amplitude, for the 2 color signals
<zid>
so they get to re-use the luma and just hue shift it
<clever>
but secam, only has 1 color signal per scanline, so there is less noise corruption
<clever>
and it alternates between which of the 2 signals its sending, so each scanline only has half the color component
<clever>
and both scanlines have the same colors
<clever>
similar to yuv420
<zid>
no dot crawl
<zid>
but you can 'see' the colour in the monochrome luma afaik
<zid>
so edges tend to be shitty
<clever>
i thought dot crawl was when a digital display samples a digital signal but isnt using the right pixel clock?
<clever>
so some pixels are sampled at the cross-over between 2 pixels
<bslsk05>
imgur.com: Imgur: The magic of the Internet
<clever>
this was supposed to just be 3 solid bars, of red, green, and blue
<klange>
i had a monitor where if you sent the right signal to it - just displayed the right image - it would shut off
<clever>
but, i intentionally mis-configured the source, so the color reference frequency was wrong
<clever>
that tv doesnt care, and keeps going by what it thinks the color freq is
<clever>
and the 2 drift out of phase, causing that rainbow
<clever>
and that reveals, that the tint adjustment knob on the tv, is just a phase adjustment
<clever>
but another display, just ignores that color signal entirely, because it knows the color burst is wrong
<geist>
klange: re: the TCG for arm being a little quicker, i'm not too surprised. i have experienced a bit of the same thing with riscv. i think architectures that are simpler than x86 get translated a bit nicer
<geist>
oh there's also the multithreaded TCG for arm
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<klange>
While it's still very much "in progress", I think I will merge my aarch64 branch into master later today.
<klange>
I've verified the little changes I've made outside of the arch stuff hasn't broken x86-64.
<klange>
I did make an ABI change of switching x86-64 to data-after-pointer for TLS as part of fixing a bug in my linker, though.
<klange>
There are a handful of little userspace changes in this diff, mostly a couple of dumb places where I used a `char` when I wanted an `int` and the signedness difference alerted me to this.
<klange>
I need to get my CI builders set up with the aarch64 toolchain, as well, so I can have them spit out ready-to-run bootstub/kernel/ramdisk archives.
<klange>
Shouldn't be too hard.
<klange>
gcc keeps throwing a warning at me in one of my libs because I have a small bitpacked struct and the abi for them changed in 9.1? which I don't care about! I've never built this code for this target on anything before gcc10!
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<klange>
with the vmmouse, qemu hides the cursor... with virtio-tablet it does not... does the latter support handing a cursor sprite to the host, I wonder...
<klange>
my compositor has some support for that as I implemented it for virtualbox
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<moon-child>
on amd64 linux, how do I tell the kernel to set segment bases?
<zid>
there's an ioctl thing I think
<zid>
WRFSBASE
<zid>
is erm
<zid>
arch_prctl
<zid>
ARCH_SET_FS
<moon-child>
ah thanks!
<moon-child>
(and looks like there is also _SET_GS, which is what I actually want--don't want to fuck up TLS)
<zid>
huh that's the opposite of what I'd wanna do
<zid>
I can't think of a use for gs, but I can at least understand wanting to change thread
<moon-child>
thinking about using memory protection for gc barriers
<moon-child>
use an alt segment to access a mirrored version of memory without protections, for when you're writing stuff that's not a pointer (or pointer to stack/oldspace)
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<geist>
also if it's a new enough cpu you can use the wrgsbase instruction directly
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<moon-child>
geist: huh, cool, didn't realise that was a thing
<moon-child>
'#GP(0) If the source register contains a non-canonical address' ehhhh stupid
<moon-child>
why can't I have a non-canonical base and then offset enough to get into canonical territory?
<zid>
My guess: because it needs +0 to be valid in case of rsp using it or something
<zid>
rather than having to check a bunch of corner cases at push time
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<moon-child>
zid: when is rsp 0 though?
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<moon-child>
(and, given rsp is not 0, you could easily have rsp + canonical gsbase = noncanonical address)
<zid>
it might not be rsp it could be a bunch of things, but it just seems easiest to do some proactive checks if it removes them from a hotpath
<moon-child>
I just mean, when do you ever access address 0? Pretty much never
<moon-child>
and you always have to check whether stuff is canonical. And besides, checking whether something is in some fixed range is _really easy_ to do in hardware
<zid>
okay fine my idea is tenuous
<zid>
is that what you wanted, you big bully? :(
<zid>
If I cry it's your fault
<moon-child>
dw I know you secretly like it
<moon-child>
(probably, you don't even check if stuff is canonical, you just happen to not find it mapped anywhere)
<zid>
well it does need the check, because it's a separate exception
<moon-child>
oh right
<zid>
my guess for why (you'll love this bit I guess)
<zid>
is that because those wires don't physically exist, you can't really do the math, you just fake it
<zid>
you and and nand all the top bits together before it goes anywhere else that might try to do maffs
<moon-child>
:<
<moon-child>
thanks, i hate it
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<geist>
wooot, full pci bus bar allocation and assignment
<geist>
this was a lot more work than i thought, but i also wanted to do a proper implementation
<kazinsal>
:toot:
<geist>
moon-child: re: the #GP that's also the same thing if you manually write to the FSGSbase MSRs
<kazinsal>
this on rv64?
<geist>
arm, but rv64 as well
<geist>
basically any system where there was no firmware to pre-initialize it
<geist>
i have a fantastically complicated bus set up with a huge pile of switches so it gives it everything to try, including 32 and 64bit prefetchable stuff nested under a few busses
<geist>
now i need to implement msi allocation on ARM (and figure out how to do it on riscv) and will be fully functional
<kazinsal>
interesting. how does the I/O space stuff work on non-x86, or do you just parse and ignore it ?
<geist>
oh no it works. so the FDT has a field that says 'iospace M:N is mapped at address X'
<geist>
basiaclly has 3 fields: base io address, base mmio, and length
<kazinsal>
oh dang, that's handy
<geist>
in the case of arm-virt machine its mapped 64k below 0x4000.0000
<geist>
haven't wired that up yet either, but if i have some sort of pci_io_read/pci_io_write routine can just indirect through that
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<geist>
in the common case, of course, all the devices are jsut blatted out on the root bus, and no bridges involved, so it's pretty trivial there
<geist>
it was all the allocation of bridges and whatnot athat took the time, and organizing the code such that it was natural
<kazinsal>
right, makes sense
<kazinsal>
kinda wish I still had the drive to do osdev stuff
<geist>
for some reason this specific thing has been eating at me for a long time. always wanted to do it, but just never got the energy to
<kazinsal>
more recently I've been more enjoying just kind of explaining stuff in the osdev field than actually doing any systems research and development stuff
<geist>
indeed
<kazinsal>
kinda came around the same time as the realization that even though I was developing something incredibly specific and focused it still wasn't going to be "disruptive" in a sense, and I kinda also enjoy teaching
<kazinsal>
would it be fun as hell to sell network appliances running my OS project? sure. is it possible? technically. is it even a one in a million shot of being a realistic goal? nope
<geist>
woot, works on riscv too. the ahci driver just came up
<kazinsal>
nice
<j`ey>
kazinsal: why cant you just run it on your own appliances and still enjoy doing it that way?
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<kazinsal>
storage is another one of those things I wouldn't mind taking a crack at. did a bit of reading a while ago about some of the tech behind NetApp's storage systems and there's some neat stuff in there
<kazinsal>
three different erasure codes being used in the RAID that underlays any given aggregate of disks so you can lose three physical disks and still keep trucking, custom filesystem that integrates with the triple erasure coded RAID and the snapshotting system and ensures that blocks can be allocated as fast as possible whenever needed so the OS can "write anywhere" whenever needed
<kazinsal>
having seen some of the wonders of it in person (once recovered a bitlockered share by just rolling it back with volume shadow copies that were being taken by the NetApp OS and were made immutable so the crypto didn't even get the opportunity to write to them) it's all sorts of neat to think about how to implement
<kazinsal>
but someone else has done it better, with much more time, money, manpower, and drive than I have
<kazinsal>
so I'm somewhat content with just... being an osdev sherpa of sorts
<geist>
that;s how i am most of the time but sometimes i get a burst of energy
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<vdamewood>
Can't move. Meownir is on my lap.
<zid>
I made you a crappy screensaver to watch if you like
<klange>
it seems like the locks elsewhere are working
<gog>
i like that command line switch, --really
<j`ey>
klange: default rpi fw doesnt have rspci
<j`ey>
err psci
<klange>
j`ey: this is just for virt, I know the startup process on rpi is... special
<j`ey>
you can build trusted firmware for rpi and get psci though :)
<c2a1>
I had an idea earlier
<c2a1>
A file system that also has database/version control features built in
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<klange>
gog: it's to prevent curious users poking at everything in /bin from accidentally starting replacement daemons
<gog>
klange: ah nice
<c2a1>
Like a cross between git, x*fs, and sql/zos datasets
<c2a1>
Do I sound high
<heat>
no
<kingoffrance>
no, ask the ghost about vms
<c2a1>
What ghost
<gog>
c2a1: nah WinFS was supposed to have somethng similar
<gog>
before it became vaporware
<gog>
iirc microsoft is trying to rework that idea
<kingoffrance>
the geist ghost
<gog>
make it more conventional but still have the database thing
<kingoffrance>
you highlighted him, not me
<c2a1>
Vms had just extension like numbers for versions didn't it?
<c2a1>
It had no tracking features
<c2a1>
Think about the potential performance benfits
<c2a1>
*benefits
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<c2a1>
I think nothing like that has been tried because it strays away from the posix/unix/vms tradition of doing things. And would probably be difficult to implement for any os that uses that design type
<gog>
i think for most applications it could just be a transparent abstraction, that they only deal with the latest version of a file
<gog>
but there could be an additional interface for applications that want to know about it
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<GeDaMo>
c2a1: I suggested SQLite as a file system a while back
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<GeDaMo>
Although it occurred to me later that memapping might not be possible if SQLite can't give you the page numbers
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<heat>
GeDaMo, map the page cache onto sqlite?
<heat>
it's not the underlying fs which should be able to be mmaped, it's the page cache that needs to map onto the filesystem
<GeDaMo>
No, I was thinking mapping individual files (blobs) into memory
<GeDaMo>
And I was suggesting using SQLite as the filesystem, no underlying FS
<heat>
yes, your underlying fs would be sqlitefs :)
<heat>
in a relatively vanilla design all your filesystem reads/writes end up on ->read_page() and ->write_page()
<GeDaMo>
But if a file is a blob, can SQLite give me the disk page numbers in order to map it to memory?
<heat>
why do you need to map back to disk?
<heat>
read it onto memory and give it to the kernel
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<GeDaMo>
Hmmm ...
<heat>
probably super doable through fuse
<heat>
(or inside the kernel if you pulled in sqlite D:)
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<heat>
for linux, the "every page in the page cache maps to a disk block" concept is only a concept for filesystems that opt in to it
<heat>
if your read_page or write_page implementations need to do non trivial things, you can simply replace the implementation
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<GeDaMo>
That's interesting
<heat>
the page -> disk block thing is just one of the many backends in linux
<bauen1>
i was pretty sure that somebody had already put sqlite in the kernel as at somepoint, somebody made some x86 code to glue together musl, sqlite, lua on x86: https://github.com/ers35/luakernel
<gog>
part of me feels itchy about having sqlite in a kernel
<gog>
but idk if it's really that bad
<hodbogi>
Hmm. Musl vs Newlib, what's the real tradeoff here, should I consider playing with musl, having only played with newlib/glibc/smallerC's libc?
<gog>
windows has its registry stuff in the executive sooo
<gog>
idk
<bauen1>
musl is quite easy to port if you're going for a syscall interface very similiar to linux, and its code is much cleaner / easier to understand than newlib
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<GeDaMo>
bauen1: neat :)
<hodbogi>
Maybe I will play with musl then
<hodbogi>
I could care less about Linux system call interfaces but nonetheless it may be worth it.
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<GeDaMo>
gog: SQLite does a /lot/ of testing, I'd trust it over any code I wrote :P
<gog>
yeah the code itself is probably fine
<heat>
hodbogi, musl is very high quality compared to newlib/glibc
<gog>
and afaik it's not very much code
<gog>
wouldn't bloat a kernel too bad
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<heat>
newlib is full of crap code and glibc is bloated and full of crap code
<gog>
glibc is a monster
<heat>
musl just lacks a few features (locales and some details in nss, + a few other things of course)
<hodbogi>
I've been playing with SmallerC's libc lately
<heat>
never heard of it
<gog>
dietlibc
<gog>
although idk about the relative quality of dietlibc
<gog>
never dug into it
<hodbogi>
SmallerC is a single pass C compiler that can generate 16 bit assembly
<bslsk05>
www.etalabs.net: Comparison of C/POSIX standard library implementations for Linux
<hodbogi>
Another thing I like about SmallerC is that when generating 32 bit assembly I can set it up to convert the nasm output with fasm using n2f.
<hodbogi>
it's a built in option for the compiler
<hodbogi>
I like fasm a lot.
<heat>
oh also musl is statically linkable
<heat>
glibc really isn't
<hodbogi>
Yeah that's handy
<hodbogi>
Though I thought that glibc just made an announcement that they were moving all of their modules into the main library
<hodbogi>
I read a changelog from Slackware that they were refusing to update glibc because it was going to break everything.
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<heat>
i haven't heard of that
<heat>
but it definitely sounds like a step in the right direction
<heat>
musl also has all modules in libc.(a/so)
<heat>
libm.a, libdl.a, libcrypt.a are stubs and ld-musl.so is a symlink to libc.so
<j`ey>
is pthreads part of it too?
<heat>
yup
<heat>
and the only difference between libc.a and .so is that libc.a doesn't include the dynamic linker
<heat>
because it's broken to dlopen() shared libraries
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<c2a1>
How good is musl at implementing the C standards compared to glibc
<c2a1>
Why is glibc bloated? Less features?
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<c2a1>
I love this channel because I can't imagine finding the answers to some of these questions on google
<GeDaMo>
There's a #musl channel
<heat>
c2a1, glibc is bloated because it's 1) huge 2) requires shared libraries 3) supports *everything* and almost every linux arch
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<heat>
you get huge binaries and the code is less than ideal
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<heat>
musl has most of POSIX implemented except a few things + some GNU extensions
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<c2a1>
How often are those extensions used I wonder
<gog>
also glibc just has all the feature test macros since decades for features that are possibly irrelevant now
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<heat>
plenty of stuff was gnu extensions before being POSIX
<heat>
like fmemopen() for example
<heat>
quick example for a GNU extension: fopencookie(), which lets you define your own custom FILE stream
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<g1n>
hello one more time, seems i finally detect memory correctly :)
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<g1n>
seems there were 2 problems: i wasn't pushing eax and ebx and paging wasn't setupped correctly
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<Bitweasil>
Hm. Is there a way to tell gcc to *not* use vector registers?
<Bitweasil>
ARMv8, it's initializing a bunch of memory with q0 registers.
<heat>
yes
<heat>
try -mgeneral-regs-only
<Bitweasil>
Do you happen to know the incantation?
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<heat>
that will kill any floating point you're doing though
<Bitweasil>
Ah, thanks! Looks like I have to disable floating point in my printf, but that's fine.
<Bitweasil>
I don't support them anyway.
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<heat>
for arm + riscv I believe you always have the option of using soft fp
<Bitweasil>
Perfect, that did *exactly* what I needed, thanks!
<Bitweasil>
(useful if you don't have FP register save/restore implemented too, I assume?)
<j`ey>
welll you still have to save FP if userspace uses it!
<Bitweasil>
Sure, but q0-q7 are being used to clear stack space, which isn't really *required,* just faster.
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<heat>
Bitweasil, codegen does what codegen can :) it uses simd registers because it knows you have them
<Bitweasil>
Yeah, it's a sane bet, just wrong in this case.
<Bitweasil>
Working on getting C binaries behaving in the emulator in a userspace emulation mode.
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* geist
yawns
<geist>
yay people hacking on arm and riscv again
<geist>
sometimes we go through these dark ages where it's just x86 all the time
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<gog>
maybe i should try my hand
<gog>
since it's what the cool kids are up to lately
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<geist>
us cool retro folks love 68k. do it!
<heat>
i feel like I should throw this ext2 driver out
<heat>
it has given me enough grief that it's probably broken in multiple aspects
<gog>
mmm
<vdamewood>
Pff, I want to write for the 6502 or the 65C816
<gog>
68k before or after the MMU was integrated?
<geist>
oooh good question!
<Bitweasil>
Yeah, screw ext, go FAT12. ;)
<Bitweasil>
Oh man, now I wish I still had my SE/30s.
<Bitweasil>
68030 of fury.
<geist>
nah go retro and use only ProDOS volumes
<Bitweasil>
Or my Powerbook 500s.
<geist>
or even DOS 3.3
<geist>
yah ikeep an eye out for SE/30s on craigslist or whatot, but they're pricey
<gog>
been watching adrian black's series about his TRS80 Model 2 with CP/M
<geist>
a coveted model
<heat>
theoretically my edk2 ext4 driver is probably way less broken given it's actually being used by people
<heat>
but alas, no write support :(
<geist>
heh yeah, though that model 2 is i thnk running TRSDOS
<gog>
oh right
<geist>
which is apparently some sort of abomination
<gog>
the last video ended a little sadly
<geist>
indeed
<geist>
trs80 model 16s are interesting, they're 68k based
<geist>
i think a lot of folks apparently ran Xenix on them
<gog>
wow there's an OS i haven't heard about in a minute
<geist>
yah i've tried to do an install or two of it on a 386 a while back, since you can get disk images for it
<geist>
but i didn't have enough ram i think (4MB)
<geist>
at least for the versio i was trying to install
<geist>
i guess i can give it another try since i've picked up a 486 since
<geist>
i was vaguely interested in running a unix flavor for 286 that properly uses just 286 protected mode. i think some of the early 80s xenixes did that
<geist>
but PC OSes from that era are extremely picky about hardware. so it's hard to find something they'll run on
<GeDaMo>
I'm pretty sure there was a Xenix that ran on 8086
<c2a1>
Hardcore
<c2a1>
Isnt there an os for atmel microcontrollers
<c2a1>
Femto. I was thinking of something else though
<bslsk05>
dmitry.gr: Linux on an 8-bit micro? - Dmitry.GR
<c2a1>
Someone ported 2.11BSD to some group of microcontrollers
<c2a1>
That and 4.3BSF
<c2a1>
*BSD
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<catern>
hi #osdev, what are some more words that are vaguely similar to "host" or "kernel"? (I am trying to name something which is hard-to-explain and "host" and "kernel" are two words I've come up with so far)
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<moon-child>
catern: it might be helpful if you said more about the thing you are trying to name
<catern>
noooo I explicitly said it's hard-to-explain, I am really confident that won't help, I just want some vocabulary hints
<catern>
if one of the words seems to fit then I will explain it
<heat>
operating system :v
<catern>
thank you, good start :)
<gog>
platform
<gog>
architecture
<gog>
interface
<catern>
(another one I thought of, like host: node)
<gog>
ligma
<heat>
what's ligma
<gog>
lmao
<catern>
who's steve jobs?
<heat>
reminds me of the ma situation
<gog>
what's ma situation?
<heat>
MA BALLS
<heat>
YOU FELL FOR THE OLDEST TRICK IN THE BOOK
<gog>
lol
<moon-child>
I actually lol'd
<gog>
:'(
* moon-child
slaps heat's balls around a bit with a large trout
<heat>
ouch
<Matt|home>
<catern> hi #osdev, what are some more words that are vaguely similar to "host" or "kernel"? (I am trying to name something which is hard-to-explain and "host" and "kernel" are two words I've come up with so far) <-- slightly sarcastic response: hostess, popcorn, four star general, entertainer
<heat>
device
<heat>
computer
<heat>
beepboop
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* gog
beeps
<catern>
heat: gog: thanks, lots of great words so far
<heat>
haha gog go beeepboop
<gog>
catern: yw :p
<gog>
even though i got off the rails there
<gog>
gotta get serious tho
* gog
gets serious
<heat>
cpu
<heat>
board
<heat>
firmware, bootloader
<heat>
payload
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<catern>
good words, good words, although I'm more looking for "place where computation happens" (or "thing which manages hardware" or "thing which you can do operations on" I guess)
<j`ey>
whats wrong with kernel?
<moon-child>
'"thing which manages hardware"' driver?
<heat>
virtual machine?
<moon-child>
'"thing which you can do operations on"' capability? (or object?)
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<catern>
system
<klange>
I always liked "execution unit".
<klange>
But that can also mean "piece of thing being executed"...
<klange>
"execution domain"
<moon-child>
execution domain just sounds like thread
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<moon-child>
(though usually I think of it as 'concurrency domain')