klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<clever> stdenv.mkDerivation on linux, gives you gcc + glibc
<heat> what's a scope?
<clever> clangStdenv.mkDerivation on linux gives you clang + glibc
<clever> stdenv.mkDerivation on mac, gives you clang instead
<clever> pkgsCross.musl64.stdenv.mkDerivation gives you a cross gcc, targeting x86-64, with musl-c
<clever> [clever@amd-nixos:~]$ nix-build '<nixpkgs>' -A pkgsCross.musl64.hello
<clever> [clever@amd-nixos:~]$ file result/bin/hello
<clever> result/bin/hello: ELF 64-bit LSB pie executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /nix/store/p0x18jddwpg9az1n9zqr9jgxka5sdz1y-musl-1.2.1-x86_64-unknown-linux-musl/lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1, not stripped
<clever> heat: when i build hello with musl64, it only depends on musl and nothing else, the total size is 58kb + 1.8mb
<clever> if i build hello with the default glibc instead, 21mb total, 251k + 288k + 923k + 20mb, libidn2, hello, libunistring, glibc
<clever> aarch64-multiplatform is just 292kb + 20mb, hello&glibc
<heat> does a change in compiler/libc trigger a rebuild?
<clever> yep
<clever> nix has no way to know what side-effects changing the compiler or libc would have
<clever> so it just treats it as an entirely different product
<heat> and that means a change in the compiler/libc rebuilds the whole distro?
<clever> yep
<heat> it's scary but also logical...
<clever> ive had ubuntu break before, because glibc was the wrong version for some utils
<clever> nix cant break, because it keeps both copies of glibc
<clever> nix will also just rebuild everything against the new libc
<clever> [clever@amd-nixos:~]$ ls -l /nix/store/*libc*/lib/libc.so | wc -l
<clever> 94
<clever> heat: i currently have 94 copies of libc.so on my machine
<zid> hrmph the case fan I was using to cool my room barely spins up, I need some whale oil or something
<heat> isn't that a bit redundant? :P
<clever> heat: would you rather the OS implode and need a reinstall, because glibc updated first, and now tar cant unpack anything?
<clever> and you can just run a GC to deleted the unused ones
<clever> [clever@amd-nixos:~]$ nix-collect-garbage
<clever> finding garbage collector roots...
<heat> good question
<heat> how would one handle that
<heat> in practice it's not an issue because ABIs are stable
<clever> heat: nix also keeps each distinct build of the entire os, as an option in grub
<clever> so if you do somehow brick the system, you can just pick an older version in grub
<clever> and it will boot as-if you hadnt updated a single thing
<heat> that's 1) scary 2) genius
<clever> in general, glibc is good at maintaining compatability, in one direction
<clever> a newer glibc, will work fine with an older binary
<clever> but other libraries arent always good at following that rule
<zid> only problem is that it's impossible to not require that new glibc
<zid> official procedure is "build with an old glibc in a vm"
<zid> if you don't wanna depend on memset@GLIBC_9.3
<clever> zid: with nix, you can just set an override for the glibc version, and you never need a VM
<zid> I didn't say you needed one, I said that is official procedure
<clever> yeah
<zid> why do you keep trying to sell me on this nix thing
<zid> I *really* don't care
<clever> i drank the kool-aid :P
* clever hides the cult sign
<heat> nix is the rust of distros
<zid> nix is the schizphrenia of distros by the sounds of it
<heat> does the build system just guess if you're using rust or something?
<heat> just so it can depend on all things rustc
<clever> heat: it has a dedicated function called buildRustPackage
<heat> or <insert favourite compiled language>
<clever> it will parse your Cargo.toml, and provide the required deps
<heat> zid, that is bedrock linux
<zid> rust is a 22GB install, love rust
<heat> bedrock linux has every distro in it
<heat> literally
<heat> zid: huh?
<zid> wouldn't that get you ALL of the backdoors, not none of them
<heat> what rustc are you using and why was it made by xilinx?
<zid> it does a silly bootstrap and has horrific issues with binary bloat
<zid> I think because it has reflection and shit as part of the language, so every source line and type needs kilobytes of info
<zid> Go has it worse, hello world is up to 49TB
<clever> lol
<bslsk05> ​github.com: all: binaries too big and growing · Issue #6853 · golang/go · GitHub
<heat> rust doesn't have reflection
<zid> 2013, bug report for hello world being 2MB, it has... only grown as far as I know
<clever> note: currently hard linking saves 12873.25 MiB
<clever> 330 store paths deleted, 2991.01 MiB freed
<clever> heat: i ran a GC, and nix found 2.9gig worth of things it could delete
<clever> but i'm still at 94 libc.so's, lol
<zid> heat: idk the terms for it, but there's a bunch of meta crap it needs for backtraces or whatever it's doing with all that info
<clever> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 509 Dec 31 1969 /nix/store/xak9ws5qs8g8cngvw45b2yrj896kk9pn-glibc-2.32-10-armv6l-unknown-linux-gnueabihf/lib/libc.so
<heat> debug info?
<heat> C also has that
<zid> lots of companies are avoiding rust/go just because of all that data acting like shipping your C project as an .a :P
<clever> heat: this one for example, is a cross-compiled armv6 libc, thats in use by something i forgot to delete
<zid> You can't even remove it in Go
<zid> because it *is* part of the language spec
<zid> so it breaks backtraces and stuff if you strip it, which there isn't an official tool for to begin with
<clever> if i delete that, and re-GC ....
<clever> zid: even C and breakpad (a google util) lets you get usable backtraces, even from a stripped binary!
<zid> what?
<clever> it will save a copy of the symbol info, server side
<clever> so when an end-user reports a symbol-less backtrace, the server can pull up the symbol info, and add it back in
<zid> still have no idea what point you're trying to make
<clever> breakpad is a framework for capturing the stack trace when things fault, and reporting it back to the author, without the end-user getting the symbol info
<zid> 'even C' wtf?
<clever> comparing basic C stuff, to go
<zid> of.. course C has backtraces
<zid> when was that up for debate lol
<clever> my point, was that C can get a useful backtrace with symbol info, even if the binary that faulted was stripped
<clever> while your saying that go cant?
<zid> I'm saying you can't strip a go binary
<heat> google search says you can
<zid> You can fake it, by changing all debug info to be "line 0 character 0, name ''"
<zid> with a 3rd party tool
<zid> but it breaks the language
<zid> reflect is part of the core lang
<heat> no, doing actual strip or passing some ld flags
<heat> debug info is not reflection
<zid> I'm reading the actual golang dev thread for it
<zid> which I linked
<clever> 1500 store paths deleted, 735.09 MiB freed
<zid> https://github.com/burrowers/garble Here's the tool, all the caveats are about reflection
<bslsk05> ​burrowers/garble - Obfuscate Go builds (69 forks/968 stargazers/BSD-3-Clause)
<clever> heat: after a 2nd round of GC, 735mb of armv6 and arm7 stuff is gone, 91 libc's remain!
<clever> several arent even for x86
<heat> it says type.* is reflect types
<heat> not debug
<heat> .debug_info is just dwarf probably
<zid> I don't care which sections they put their debug info in
<heat> clever, 91 are too many libcs :P
<heat> i have 2 for linux (glibc for the system + musl for the tinkering)
<heat> then I have a musl build for fuchsia, a musl build for Carbon, a musl build for Onyx
<heat> so, 5 libc in total
<heat> actually I think I have a riscv64 Onyx musl build sysroot tarball somewhere so 6 if you want to be pedantic
<clever> heat: most of these appear to just be from me being lazy, stuff i havent upgraded in years
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<clever> heat: heh, i'm finding libc's that i last used in 2017, and i forgot to delete the thing using them
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<clever> heat: oh yeah, nix also helps with bisection of bugs as well
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<clever> if you have a given package that worked a year ago, but is broken now
<clever> you can just bisect every change nix has ever done between those 2 points
<clever> and test out old libc's and anything else that could have changed
<clever> no need for a VM or risk breaking your host due to playing with lib versions
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<bslsk05> ​virtuallyfun.com: Building OSKit | Fun with virtualization
<Izem> great news to see stuff like this is possible
<kingoffrance> that guy......does lots of things :)
<kingoffrance> it was inevitable, matter of time :)
<Izem> yeah, great stuff :)
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<radens> Is there a good document I can cite for the programming interface for a PC UART? I.e. one which authoritatively state that com1 is at port 0x3f8?
<Mutabah> Well, that's more a convention from the original IBM PC
<Mutabah> but the chip itself should be well documented
<radens> Is that written authoritatively anywhere?
<radens> Like if I want to program a raspi there's a broadcom document I can cite/read
<Mutabah> The IO address? no
<Mutabah> Well, it's written in many places
<Mutabah> and individual chipsets will fully document it
<Mutabah> but there is no one PC spec that defines the interfaces
<Mutabah> because they're all maintaining compatability with clones of the IBM
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<klange> love when I spend an hour trying to figure out a virtualbox issue thinking I broke something, then boot an Ubuntu guest and it has the same problem
<klange> so I guess mouse input is just completely broken in the current packaged build of virtualbox on Ubuntu 20.04 :)
<klange> With integration, no mouse movement is reported unless a button is pressed. Visible in Ubuntu as a lack of hover highlight on GTK buttons.
<zid> interrupts were broken in my qemu for ages so I gave up
<zid> I reinstalled the VM recently and they started working, no code changes
<zid> downgraded qemu and.. they still bloody worked
<zid> kvm is just haunted
<klange> Without integration, it seems to be reporting button 1 is down after it's released, visible in Ubuntu guest as not being able to stop dragging a window by its titlebar
<klange> With integration, right click produces a left click, then see previous issue...
<klange> zid: kvm does not manage normal interrupts, only fancy newer ones
<zid> I jsut mean... software that deals with virtualization
<zid> in general
<zid> it's too hot to type
<zid> damnit klange now you've broken my mouse
<zid> big pauses between update
<klange> oh super fun that Ubuntu VM was set to use USB tablet, so it's not even some weird PS/2 / hgcm nonsense, it's just straight-up broken
<klange> qemu has an issue for a long while with PS/2 device buffers being incorrectly intermixed, but it was neatly masked if you used the right scancode set in combination with the vmport mouse
<klange> the cosmically hilarious thing with that was... I sat down and spent a day doing a bunch of research for a bug report
<klange> only to have a fix appear in master _an hour before I posted it_.
<klange> At least I got to confirm the fix...
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<klange> And yet I'm sitting here still using the version from the 20.04 package repo instead of my git build, so it still has that bug
<klange> ooh I should test this with a guest that has absolute mouse but _not_ cursor texture support, that would be super obvious
<klange> maybe tomorrow
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<zid> Hrmph
<zid> Tried to tab to vmware to make sure it wasn't doing it, dwm completely locked up
<zid> force logged myself out, logged back in, mouse still janky. Killed a bunch of programs and services, still doing it
<zid> measured DPC latency, normal
<zid> turned monitor on and off.. working agan
<zid> usb hub in my monitor overheating is all I can think
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<charco> Hi! I am having some issues running the hello world gnu-efi program. I am following the steps in https://wiki.osdev.org/GNU-EFI but when I run the program from the EFI Shell in QEMU with OVFM I get `command error status: not found`. Any ideas?
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: GNU-EFI - OSDev Wiki
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* geist waves
* GeDaMo particles
* clever self-interferes
<GeDaMo> Don't do that in public, you'll get arrested :|
<charco> Hi geist
<geist> lo charco, wasn't sure if it was the same one
<charco> the one and only, trying to learn about UEFI :p
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<geist> noice. i haven't looked into the GNU-EFI stff, but i dont think it gets glowing reviews from most folks i know that have fiddled with it
<charco> I just found what the issue was. At some point it converts a .so to a PE with objcopy, and I typoed the name of a section (reloc instead if .reloc) and that was the cause of the issue.
<charco> I started using POSIX-UEFI, which seemed easy to use. It worked on QEMU, but I couldn't get it to work on real hardware
<geist> ah. is this x86?
<charco> x86-64
<charco> why?
<geist> oh just curious
<charco> Ah, no, no, I am just trying to learn about the UEFI environment. The spec says for example that all memory is identity mapped, but it doesn't specify which protections it has (rw?) so I wanted to create an app and play with that.
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<geist> ah. yeah and it's also different per arch. the ARM and riscv addendums to the spec call that out in basically the same way, but since their mmus work differently it isn't exactly the same thing
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<geist> charco: fun thing you can do if you want to see how uefi sets up the page tables: boot on qemu x86 without KVM, get to the uefi shell and then drop into the qemu monitor and use 'info tlb' and/or 'info mmu'
<geist> it'll dump the page tables
<geist> might work on KVM but it'd definitely work if using TCG
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<sortie> I have coffee :)
<charco> Nice, I just tried it (`info mem`, not mmu). To my surprise it seems to be using 2MiB pages?
<charco> (for example, `info tlb` shows:
<charco> ```
<charco> ```)
<charco> 0000000fffe00000: 0000000fffe00000 --P-----W
<charco> 0000000fffc00000: 0000000fffc00000 --P-----W
<sortie> Today in osdev: gcc fails to compile, genautomata crashes on null. I'm cross-compiling a i686 gcc using a i686-targeting gcc running on my x86_64 OS, so, uh, quite the fringe case :)
<sortie> charco, awesome that you're playing with uefi :) I hope you contribute some of your learnings back to the wiki so people after you have good resources :)
<nshp> charco: fwiw, edkII includes a build system for UEFI applications/drivers with examples
<geist> charco: yah sure, that makes sense to me
<nshp> it's the reference implementation that most real implementations are forks of, it's pretty functional and less annoying than gnu-efi as well
<charco> nshp everywhere in the wiki it says that it's complex and bloated, so I'm trying to avoid it :p
<geist> you know i was just thinking: one of the reasons the apple M1 based systems seem to not be as picky about memory usage (ie, 16GB doesn't seem tob e a problem) is compressed memory may be so much cheaper there
<geist> was just looking at the ram usage on this mac mini m1 and it has a huge amoutn of compressed ram in place, very aggressive abouti t
<nshp> charco: it's complex and bloated, but its application build system isn't
<geist> but.... when i was reading about the instruction extensions that apple has, someone uncovered that there's literally a 'compress page'/'decompress page' instruction
<nshp> plus, your hardware almost certainly runs edkII already, so it's not _more_ bloat than you already have :P
<geist> that plus they're using 16k pages means it'd actually get a fairly good run on compression
<geist> if those instructions are pretty cheap/fast/free then makes sense that they may tune their vm for aggressive compression
<charco> M1 has memory compression instructions?! nice
<geist> yeah i remember noticing this a while back. it's in the extension opcode space, so a valid thing for apple to do and still be an ARM implemenation
<geist> probably uses some fairly cheesy compression method, but if it's done in hardware then its probaby fast as heck
<charco> how do they use it? do they compress a bunch of pages instead of paging them out?
<geist> presumably they compress first and page out later
<geist> the xnu vm has always been tuned to aggressively use swap, but with cheap compression i can see why that'd change things a bit
<geist> i had definitely read before that especially on mobile devices the relative energy cost of compression is much lower than reading/writing to flash, even without hardware accellerated compression
<charco> I see. So they keep a section of ram for compressed memory, and also use that same region for swapping into disk. Android does something like that with zRAM too, but that's just software
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<charco> hm, this is weird. I set qemu's memory to 64M, but when I do `info tlb` I get everything idd mapped from 0x0 to 0xfffe00000. I was expecting uefi to only map the ranges that were available?
<clever> thats nearly 64gig!!
<clever> charco: what does `info mtree` say?
<charco> `info memory_size_summary` displays 64MiB, I am looking at mtree now
<bslsk05> ​IRCCloud pastebin | Raw link: https://irccloud.com/pastebin/raw/8LoWHlZQ
<clever> charco: i think line 138 is saying that the vga mmio is at ~3088mb into the physical space
<clever> so if you want to access vga mmio, that also has to be identity mapped
<clever> and just mapping everything with hugepages, could be simpler then figuring out what to map where
<charco> I see
<charco> That makes sense
<clever> different implementations of uefi may also behave differently
<charco> When you write an UEFI App are you supposed to call ExitBootServices and then take ownership of the memory mappings? I couldn't find any function to manipulate mappings in the uefi reference so I guess you are not supposed to touch the mappings until after you exit the BS
<clever> yeah, thats my understanding as well
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<nshp> there are plenty of high-level functions for remapping memory
<nshp> drivers generally have to do it, after all
<nshp> AllocatePages() in boot services might be what you're after?
<nshp> (or FreePages())
<charco> Yeah, I looked at those, but it doesn't do what I want. I want to grab one of the already mapped entries an change the attributes for example
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<charco> So I look at the output of BS->GetMemoryMap and it has a bunch of ranges that are EfiConventionalMemory... According to the spec, those ranges are identity-mapped, but I cannot assume anything about the attrs of the mapping (RO? X?) so before writing to that memory I need to set the right attributes...
<nshp> I believe it is defined? e.g. EfiBootServicesCode should be RX, EfiBootServicesData should be RW
<nshp> that said, I don't believe there _are_ any memory protections in reality
<nshp> not that the spec forbids it or anything, but I've not seen anything actually set protections
<charco> `info tlb` and `info mem` from qemu show some mappings as NX, and some mappings as RO
<charco> and nshp this is mentioned in the spec, section 2.3.4: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/gUlB55FL/image.png
<nshp> anyway, why not Free and then Allocate?
<charco> It's a long story, that takes me back a couple of weeks ago, when I downloaded an ubuntu image and the sha1 hash kept changing every time I checked
<charco> tl;dr I want to build an uefi app that checks the memory of my computer, not because I need to, but because I want to learn and this is the perfect example
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<sortie> Well turns out my bug was a well known one where c++ programs crash on startup if they use both pthread_create and anything from libstdc++ (including exception handling implicitly pulled in by operator new), and this bug manifested in a surprising place where these conditions came true only under certain architectures and optimization options
<sortie> That'll teach me to fix these bugs instead of sweeping them under the rug so they pop up and surprises me nastily like this
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<sortie> Woohoo I managed to cross-compile my 32-bit OS build in its entirety from my 64-bit OS build.
<Izem> nice
<sortie> This makes it easier to do the next stable release when I just need one self-hosting installation to build both archs, rather than two installations and splicing the built release directories together
<Izem> which one is going to be self hosting, the 64 bit one?
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<sortie> Izem, yeah I usually prefer the 64-bit build
<sortie> The 32-bit build has a super rare double fault kernel panic for that reason.. only found when doing the full self-hosting build on it. So that's also part of why I build the 32-bit release under 64-bit, cuz' the other way doesn't work yet
<clever> sortie: any focus on reproducible builds?
<clever> if 32bit and 64bit hosts generate the exact same binary, then you know you dont need to test the differences
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<sortie> clever, excellent question. Unfortunately not yet :) But reproducible builds is absolutely something I want to explore
<sortie> I do know, however, that the cross-compiling my OS's ports tree vs. compiling it natively, results in a different set of files being installed
<sortie> I'd likely see some of those differences
<sortie> Plus many differences can leak into reproducible builds.. like I saw differences because sort(1) on my OS vs. grep gave a slightly different order for strings that otherwise compared equal
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<clever> sortie: there is also disorderfs for linux, which makes all directory listings random
<clever> so if you ever forget to sort, it will really show up
<sortie> I like that
<sortie> Reproducible builds, hard mode
<clever> there is also a trick that the nix package manger has
<clever> just build the entire package, hash the result, delete, build it again!, hash it
<clever> did it produce the same thing the 2nd time around?
<clever> but that cant find differences in the build host
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<sortie> :)
<sortie> Certainly things I want to play with way down the road but for now I'm just happy it's building
<sortie> There's suuuucchhh a long tail of port issues to clean up
<clever> with the repeat option in nix, you can also keep the duplicate when things fail, and then just `diff -r` the 2 copies, to see what went wrong