klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<clever> then you can give it some testscases, with input data, and expected results
<geist> so they could be hypothetically actually punching out a 128 byte wyte AXI bus to the memory controller or something
<clever> and it will prune the generated code, to that
<geist> would have to know the details of how they synthesized it
<geist> but that seems a bit wide to me. 128 bits sure
<clever> yeah, thats why i was asking, 128 bytes is pretty damn wide
<geist> but ithe details of how they configure each individual AXI interface is sort of important
<geist> the width and i think the burst depth is statically configurable
<geist> and that's a lot of what the various crossbars have to deal with, interfacing wider and narrower stuff
<clever> would it be possible to measure that, by comparing transfer/second at various burst sizes?
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<geist> i suppose sure
<geist> also uh oh, new boston dynamics spot video
<clever> another one? or just the one from a few days ago?
<geist> yesterday it seems
<Skyz> Co-pilot seems really interesting
<clever> aha, found it: https://hoogleplus.goto.ucsd.edu/
<bslsk05> ​hoogleplus.goto.ucsd.edu: Hoogle+
<clever> this can also write haskell code for you, just give a desired type, and example input/output data
<geist> there's a fatal flaw there
<geist> it writes... haskell
<clever> function composition is what lets it work :P
<maurer> Eh, I think co-pilot is just going to be the newest way for people to copy paste bugs from stack overflow into their code
<kazinsal> now instead of copy and pasting stack overflow bugs, you AI up stack overflow bugs AND FSF lawyer bait
<maurer> only this time, we'll have an AI writing new and interesting bugs, so we can't just scan for them after we find out a bad answer has been misleading people
<maurer> Yep :P
<maurer> I'm kind of curious what will happen with licensing there
<bslsk05> ​programming.guide: The most copied StackOverflow snippet of all time is flawed! | Programming.Guide
<clever> maurer: ive also seen a meme, saying it costs $1/hour to copy code from SO, it costs $100k/year to know WHAT code to copy from SO
<maurer> clever: Yeah, but people also copy security bugs from SO all the time that pass all the tests
<maurer> And take a look at co-pilot's headliner example
<maurer> They fail to escape text argument they pass in
<maurer> and are using an HTTP endpoint
<kazinsal> this thing is going to be the world's first automated secfuck generator
<clever> maurer: ah yep, injection exploit
<doug16k> maurer, haha you read my mind. 1st thing that came to my mind is the skill bar of developers getting even lower than it already is
<clever> maurer: perl had a neat feature of tainted strings
<clever> maurer: if you try to interpolate a tained (user supplied) string into sql, it would be a fatal error
<clever> functions like the sql escape function clear the taint flag, but otherwise, it spreads like a virus
<maurer> clever: So, there are frameworks that do that, and libraries, I'm not convinced that building it into the language is the right design
<clever> maurer: ive also seen a php developer that was using such a library, with string interpolation, and assumed it magically escaped everything
<clever> he wasnt using bind params, so it had injections exploits everywhere
<clever> the worst was the login page, "1 or 2" in the username field, made the password not matter
<maurer> But yeah, basically my assumption is that what's going to happen here is we're going to get a lot of code that is buggy in novel subtle ways
<maurer> The other fun one is going to be when people who want to "contribute" to their favorite project start trying to submit the output of copilot
<maurer> and then the reviewers try to teach them, only to find out they're being fed AI garbage
<geist> replace the code reviewers with AI
<bslsk05> ​'The World’s Most Advanced A.I. Wrote 100% of This Movie' by Corridor Crew (00:13:12)
<clever> maurer: they had an AI generate the script for the ep, and then just acted out whatever the AI generated
<geist> yah there was another one that had a Real Actor
<geist> few years back
<geist> ah yes, Sunspring
<bslsk05> ​'Sunspring | A Sci-Fi Short Film Starring Thomas Middleditch' by Ars Technica (00:09:02)
<clever> oh yeah, and then there was that song that got generated by AI
<clever> and i think it only works because of the skill of the artist
<bslsk05> ​'a Eurovision song created by Artificial Intelligence: Blue Jeans and Bloody Tears' by Sweaty Machines (00:03:39)
<geist> it's infuriatig to listen to, like you're having some sort of stroke
<clever> if you dont try to make sense of the lyrics, it sounds great, lol
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<kingoffrance> i thought bloody tears was castlevania. has the ai been playing nes...
<bslsk05> ​'Travis Scott AI Robot (Jack Park Canny Dope Man)' by LifeWithKoran (00:02:39)
<Skyz> kinda funny
<bslsk05> ​www.stereogum.com: This AI Travis Scott Is A Pretty Good Rapper And Obsessed With Food
<Skyz> I literally don't know what I'm doing with lisp
<Skyz> I just feel like I learned alot about coding
<clever> Skyz: a few years ago, i found an online AI chat bot, and i got it to admint to planning skynet, lol
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<Skyz> Yes
<Skyz> It's happening
<moon-child> clever: was it cleverbot?
<moon-child> is it you? Did you plan skynet?
<pony> cleverbot just wants to have sex with itself :(
<pony> I've seen 2 cleverbots going at it
<clever> lol
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<pony> has anyone here read the elements of computing systems? the second edition just came out, thinking of getting it.
<pony> its nickname is nand2tetris
<klange> Eh, it's more that the authors of that book manage the related nand2tetris project, but the original book is from like 2005 and nand2tetris is a lot newer
<pony> ahh
<pony> is nand2tetris then a course that uses the book?
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<pony> I'm going to get the 2nd edition. looks really cool.
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<Skyz> So I saw a very interesting os solution
<bslsk05> ​'Tilck, a Tiny Linux-Compatible Kernel' by Vladislav K. Valtchev (00:02:21)
<bslsk05> ​maximevince/fbDOOM - fbDOOM (is fork /7 forks/32 stargazers)
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<graphitemaster> Yo, every single reader/writer lock implementation and tutorial online is wrong
<graphitemaster> I'm actually surprised just how bad this area is.
<GeDaMo> I feel like you're going to try and sell us something :|
<graphitemaster> It's like all the thought went into mutex and condition variables and no one looked at rwlock
<graphitemaster> No, just an observation.
<sortie> I'd ask graphitemaster to figure out if mine are terrible but I actually don't want to create work for myself lol
<sortie> They are perfectly fine over there in the corner, largely unused
<graphitemaster> Yes sortix's libc/pthread/pthread_rwlock_* is also wrong, already looked at it.
<sortie> Dammit
<sortie> Why must you be this way graphitemaster
<sortie> My rwlocks would be wrong and I would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids
<sortie> graphitemaster: Could you help by filing an issue at <https://gitlab.com/sortix/sortix/issues/>? I'm a little preoccupied right now. Or if you can at least just tell me what to put in the bug report fields, I can file it
<bslsk05> ​gitlab.com: Issues · sortix / Sortix · GitLab
<sortie> Nothing really relies on these right now, so not a priority, but I would want them fixed one of these years
<graphitemaster> So here's the thing, POSIX requires rwlock be read preferring (or write starving), which this isn't. But that's actually beside the point here, because even a write starving lock has problems. I'd straight up argue POSIX itself might be defective.
<graphitemaster> Regardless which direction you go in (read starving, write starving), you can end up in deadlock situations with completely _valid_ uses of it. They're just not fair.
<froggey> if you end up in deadlock then maybe it wasn't a valid use, idk
<graphitemaster> Well that's the thing, rwlocks are literally unusable, there is no way to use them with a guarantee you will not deadlock.
<graphitemaster> There is no valid use of them.
<graphitemaster> Anyways sortix's just straight up has a bug, because the write lock doesn't stay latched
<sortie> graphitemaster: Please state it in the form of an issue, either by filing it, or giving me the text that goes into the body
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<Skyz> So I opened up the new NandToTetris Book, gives an interesting introduction
<bslsk05> ​github.com: RWLock/lib.rs at master · JerryWang304/RWLock · GitHub
<graphitemaster> I think this might actually be a valid rwlock
<graphitemaster> This is curious
<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com: I audited 3 different implementation of async RwLock. : rust
<Skyz> The NandToTetris Book teaches you how to implement a computer from scratch
<Skyz> Operating System design will change
<Skyz> I think there is a whole new world of computers just waiting to be discovered
<GeDaMo> Not until you can build your own semiconductors in a cave with a box of scraps :P
<Skyz> Well, somethings don't change
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<Skyz> I'm actually not so sure how the CPUs work that's an aspect that intel and labs figure out
<Skyz> Basically it's just data in and data out
<Skyz> The implementation of real CPUs is beyond what I can figure out
<GeDaMo> There are some video series on Youtube of people building breadboard CPUs
<GeDaMo> "Ben Eater - Building an 8-bit breadboard computer!" https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLowKtXNTBypGqImE405J2565dvjafglHU
<GeDaMo> "James Sharman - Making an 8 Bit pipelined CPU" https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFhc0MFC8MiCDOh3cGFji3qQfXziB9yOw
<bslsk05> ​playlist 'Building an 8-bit breadboard computer!' by Ben Eater
<bslsk05> ​playlist 'Making an 8 Bit pipelined CPU' by James Sharman
<__sen> There's ##homebrewcpu which is a bunch of people learning to build real CPUs, by the way :)
<Skyz> I'm more interested in software, I just wanted to know how to implement hardware to build an OS
<Skyz> The nandtotetris book does a good job outlining everything
<GeDaMo> Yeah, there are online courses based on NAND2Tetris, I did the hardware part, it's good
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<Skyz> So far I just perused it, I haven't built anything with it because I was imagining an OS with it
<Skyz> I started something called SimpleOS
<Skyz> Also was trying to make something larger scale called Skyz
<gorgonical> Okay I have tried to understand on my own and I just cannot. How (or can) I discover what interrupt vector has been assigned for the various ELx timers on an armv8 system?
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<gorgonical> It seems Linux uses ACPI, but my understanding is that's controversial/not every system even has ACPI support. Is it in the FDT?
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<gorgonical> Or am I supposed to assume that if a GIC3 has been implemented that they did what ARM suggested to do?
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<doug16k> compatibility is so uncool though right?
<doug16k> cooler when ever machine has a different rat nest of irq stuff
<gorgonical> At least I've discovered from the gic3 code that it parses the dtb and pulls them out of that. How this code was created I don't know because I can't find any documentation explaining the layout
<Skyz> I would argue compatibility is uncool
<Skyz> Should make everything reverse compatible but not forward compatible
<doug16k> so nothing works on a new machine?
<doug16k> that should help them sell
<Skyz> Everything works from before
<Skyz> But nothing works on the old machines
<doug16k> that has a hidden assumption that breaking compatibility improves it
<Skyz> Well the assumption shouldn't be an assumption, it should be true
<doug16k> if that were the case, x86 would be a distant memory
<Skyz> I'm trying to imagine a computer without the internet browser and get rid of those assumptions
<doug16k> you know what cpus mostly do? load, store, add, subtract, compare, branch
<Skyz> Kind of like the design of plan 9
<doug16k> everything else is nearly irrelevant
<Skyz> I'm wondering if 9p was used as a software protocol how would applications change, etc. a distributed model
<doug16k> my 3950x has executed way more "hlt" than anything else
<doug16k> or mwait
<doug16k> so really, computers mostly idle, then if not not idling, one of those operations I mentioned, then very rarely something not mentioned
<Skyz> Right now bitcoin is offering a distributed model
<doug16k> also, when you improve something, it is often a negligible amount of extra logic to support existing stuff
<doug16k> you can design your stuff so it is different, but fits
<bslsk05> ​SpyderTL/OZone - A platform for building low level programs for multiple platforms using XML documents (1 forks/9 stargazers/GPL-3.0)
<Skyz> You can actually make the computer do assembly using XML
<Skyz> I don't know if it's any better but this would make compatibility a problem
<bslsk05> ​github.com: OZone/Header.xml at master · SpyderTL/OZone · GitHub
<doug16k> 80 37 12 40 ... lol
<doug16k> wtf?
<Skyz> No then
<doug16k> everybody hates xml
<gorgonical> Wait what
<gorgonical> Are the instructions encoded separately in hex?
<Skyz> Code looks clean though
<gorgonical> Each byte to a tag?
<doug16k> Skyz, what code?
<bslsk05> ​github.com: OZone/Program.cs at master · SpyderTL/OZone · GitHub
<doug16k> making object files human readable is just stupid. what's the point?
<doug16k> you want your "linker" to spin on some stupid text parser, wading through spaces, and expecting spaces between everything? why?
<Skyz> Well I don't know every little detail about this
<doug16k> that project is a great example of Wirth's Law
<doug16k> compile and link of an N64 game, with traditional tools, probably takes 200ms
<doug16k> how many N64 assembly source files per second do you think it could assemble on dual core?
<Skyz> Probably 10 idk
<doug16k> 10 C++ source files per second maybe. more like 200 assembly files per second
<doug16k> programs today are so idiotically slow, we have completely lost perception of how fast computers run
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<doug16k> did you know that mario64 is unoptimized?
<doug16k> I don't mean they didn't optimize it. I mean they didn't even tell the compiler, -O
<doug16k> the compiler they used has no intention of the code running fast, at all. all it wanted to do was make sure debugging works
<Skyz> Well with the amount of power CPUs have programs can be more slow
<doug16k> they didn't even do the most basic things correctly
<Skyz> The most fundamental thing was done, a great game
<doug16k> the programmers didn't make the game
<Skyz> Forest was focused on rather than the trees
<doug16k> they have nothing to do with the game
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<doug16k> games provide a bunch of settings on objects to the designers, and they make the game
<doug16k> the programmers are just shovelling stuff from the game data into the hardware
<doug16k> very carefully
<Skyz> I feel like that's a shortcoming of open source, it's only programmers
<gog> mario64 had a lot of clever tricks to make it run and look the way it does
<doug16k> you could change the data files and make "mario's porn adventure", without changing any code
<gog> leisure suit mario
<moon-child> rubber-mario-face boob physics?
<doug16k> moon-child, you read my mind
<moon-child> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
<doug16k> keyframes of boob animation crossed my mind
<Skyz> Probably best to keep it somewhat pg
<doug16k> have you seen an MMORPG?
<gog> unfortunately
<doug16k> more like scantily clad caster chick game
<doug16k> where 75 percent of the female toons are actually a guy playing
<gog> scantily clad rogue/theif in my case
<Skyz> Ranger Chick, in runescape you could crossdress. I never expected the consquence of that
<Skyz> I played like 30+ mmos
<Skyz> but runescape was my favorite
<Skyz> I actually cross dressed irl
<Skyz> But i guess a lot of people are finding their identities today
<Skyz> It would be interesting if people started to dress up in role playing costumes irl regularly
<gog> people do that, it's called LARPing
<Skyz> Very interesting
<Skyz> I was thinking if fashion caught some of the ideas from mmorpg costumes
<Skyz> Kind of like Google Glass or Assassin's Creed
<Skyz> Like a futuristic mix
<Skyz> Maybe I'm just thinking of the matrix
<Skyz> Cyberpunk
<Skyz> In a way I see that in urban streetstyle
<Skyz> I just wonder what kind of world it will be in that future
<Skyz> And if plan 9 will be there ;)
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<geist> gorgonical: re: the FDT GIC3 layout. i think that' documented in the linux tree
<geist> the layout is under Documentation/ for most of the interesting device tree nodes
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