klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<vancz> I want to buy a copy of Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach
<vancz> 1) should I?
<vancz> 2) which edition should I get?
<vancz> peeking at libgen, the introduction says they updated the newest edition to use RISCV instead of mips, and I guess updated some examples
<gorgonical> geist: thanks for your excellent toolchains script
<gorgonical> vancz: it doesn't matter which ed you get really. And yes, it's really good for understanding the principles of pipelining, smp, numa, etc
<gorgonical> we use it a lot in the department here and the only differences between editions is the problems and I think recently they changed from mips asm to risc-v
<vancz> the argument for buying a copy is that its less distracting that using it on a computer, soI figure I _might_ get more done. I just dont like buying stuff
<vancz> I have read some of it before and I was quite happy with the quality of the cotnent
<gorgonical> i'd try to get the newest version you can find on ebay for cheap
<gorgonical> doubtless to find a good used copy there
<vancz> I use bookfinder.com usually
<vancz> I _think_ that also aggregates ebay but I'm not sure
<geist> hmm, might check that one out
<geist> i'm always lookig for old reference manuals, if anything as a collection
<vancz> gorgonical: do you know if there are hardcovers?
<gorgonical> for this cross compiler, it built my kernel just fine, but when trying to build the init_task, which is in user space, it fails on the include_next stdint.h.
<gorgonical> vancz: I don't know
<vancz> I wish good books came in hardcover :I
<gorgonical> I understand that this include_next is trying to find a library, but I'm trying to wrap my head around *which* library I should supply
<dh`> #include finds headers, not libraries, and it's important to understand the distinction
<gorgonical> of course, but since I'm cross compiling for aarch64 I am trying to understand which library exactly it wants to find
<geist> indeed. note that particular toolchain has no libc included. that's basically all you
<gorgonical> okay, that's what I was looking for. I can probably just build a libc toolchain with this, yeah?
<geist> but a few of the headers are a bit weird, stdint.h included
<doug16k> haha, whole thing just says how to load immediate: https://developer.ibm.com/technologies/linux/articles/l-ppc/
<bslsk05> ​developer.ibm.com: PowerPC assembly – IBM Developer
<geist> doug16k: note IBM style ppc assembly is annoying as heck, specifically in that all fields are either r or constant, and it's implicit to the instruction which ones are
<geist> it's like intentionally hard mode assembly for no good reason
<doug16k> oh good it's not like that at all then
<doug16k> glad I mentioned
<geist> iirc there's a switch on objdump you can set that tells it to output 'r' where appropriate
<geist> and you can type it that way too, and it'll do some sort of limited arg checking as a result
<vancz> gorgonical: the newest edition seems about 100$ everywhere
<vancz> wellll, not sure if I want the international edition
<gorgonical> vancz: there's no difference in the intl version, it's just made cheaper by the publisher to make it avaiable internationally
<gorgonical> So if you're buying used the difference is little to none
<vancz> hmhm
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<bslsk05> ​github.com: dgos/build-crossgcc-gcc.patch at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
<doug16k> I don't know which polarity of that you need
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<vancz> gorgonical: the amazon reviews actually seem a bit mixed
<bslsk05> ​www.amazon.com: Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach (The Morgan Kaufmann Series in Computer Architecture and Design): Hennessy, John L., Patterson, David A.: 9780128119051: Amazon.com: Books
<gorgonical> Probably my system can get away with using gcc's stdint. There's nothing exotic about the kernel, it's a linux-derived lightweight kernel
<gorgonical> The alternative is to build libc and supply that, right?
<doug16k> get away? you want gcc's
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<doug16k> the stuff in stdint is so intimately tied to codegen, it only makes sense for the compiler to give it to you
<doug16k> if you provided it, you'd be creating a series of coincidences where you just happened to define stuff correctly
<gorgonical> in what context would I not want gcc's then?
<gorgonical> It's not really clear to me why I would want to supply my own stdint.h from some other library
<doug16k> the stuff in freestanding is mostly there because only the compiler knows what to put in it
<doug16k> even if you make a rom you need freestanding, because you aren't a mindreader
<doug16k> best example: stdarg.h what it does varies. it is utterly unreasonable for you to "know" what va_list looks like
<dh`> this is why nowadays compilers provide __builtin_va_list
<doug16k> and utterly unreasonable to know what va_arg does
<doug16k> yes of course. the headers use the builtins. but you can't mindread what builtins
<doug16k> that is supposed to be all wrapped up behind stdint.h and you never heard of __builtin_va_list
<doug16k> that is the extreme example
<dh`> but it doesn't work that way, and asking gcc to provide part of the system headers for you has _never_ come out well
<doug16k> stdint is a mind version of that scenario
<doug16k> mild*
<dh`> which is why __builtin_va_list is part of the system-to-compiler interface now
<doug16k> in what
<doug16k> in exactly gcc and clang? ok
<dh`> in every compiler that matters
<doug16k> no
<dh`> at this point
<doug16k> so you don't #include <stdarg.h> then
<dh`> no?
<dh`> you provide it, it's your job as the system part of the "implementation"
<doug16k> being part of freestanding doesn't make it seem weird to hardcode it?
<dh`> <dh`> asking gcc to provide part of the system headers for you has _never_ come out well
<doug16k> gorgonical, you don't build any libc right? so you don't get a correct set of headers
<doug16k> dh`, stdarg.h works 100%
<doug16k> I have never seen the slightest problem with it
<vancz> ok so given that this lists quantitative computer architecture, and Designing Data Intensive Applications, how likely are the other listed books to be awesome? https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/2021/R01/
<bslsk05> ​www.cl.cam.ac.uk: Department of Computer Science and Technology – Course pages 2020–21: Advanced Topics in Computer Systems
<dh`> when gcc ships headers they're usually broken
<gorgonical> doug16k: I think I need to build a library anyway, because eventually it won't be just the kernel running
<gorgonical> So maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. The kernel itself builds, but the init_task won't because I haven't built the aarch64 libc I need
<doug16k> you can cheat in stdint.h anyway. it gives you all the __SIZE_TYPE__ __INT32_TYPE__ etc
<vancz> it sems a bit odd that they chose the 4th edition
<doug16k> even all the _LEAST32 and _FAST32 and those
<dh`> yes, much like __builtin_va_list
<doug16k> and all the mins and maxes
<vancz> gorgonical: also apparently there are more appendices than there is book :P
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<doug16k> dh`, not like it. another compiler would provide a stdint so you don't need the __ hack one. __builtin_va_list is littered throughout the code apparently
<dh`> huh?
<dh`> since gcc 3 the normal, sane thing to do is provide your own stdarg.h that does #define va_list __builtin_va_list, and that's the only place it needs to appear
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<doug16k> I'm saying put one compiler specific workaround file in the standard place to workaround lack of correct freestanding without building glibc, you are saying hardcode builtins for everything throughout the code
<dh`> we are apparently not speaking in the same language
<klange> I get my stdarg.h direct from gcc.
<klange> My stdint... is apparently sourced from GCC but plopped in my own include dir.
<doug16k> only the author of a compiler "provides" va_list and va_arg
<doug16k> and they are just doing what an ABI says
<doug16k> but they have to wire it into the type system and stuff
<klange> stdint was one that I recall getting screwed by during a gcc upgrade, like an older gcc was providing stdint and the newer was like nah, you get the __MACROS__, do it yourself mate
<klange> randomly spent the time bringing back vga text mode support https://klange.dev/s/Screenshot%20from%202021-06-10%2009-36-26.png
<klange> Had to add an interface to map it, fix up some stuff in one of the debug tools that assumed a framebuffer existed, and also I broke the interface for the keyboard as this was assuming it would get early returns if it asked for 4K of data (new one atomically returns what you asked for, as the backend is shared with some stuff that is packet-based and it made that work a lot better with SMP)
<geist> i think you guys are violently agreeing
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<klange> hm, there is definitely a stdint in here, if I delete mine will it work... ah, no, the gcc one has an #include_next so it wants me to provide one.
<klange> ah but only if __STDC_HOSTED__? so it provides one for freestanding, but in hosted I need to have one...
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<klange> oh this actually might be the newlib stdint.h, it has a very unique little license with two short lines of notice requirement and nothing else, and a copyright to Ralf Corsepius. Thanks, Ralf.
<gog> let's here it for ralf
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<johnjay> hmm, in tmux is there a way to set the color of the individual tabs in the status bar?
<johnjay> i had the idea of making it change color to indicate a process finished
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<moon-child> johnjay: not sure, but it will invert the tab's name if you print a \a
<johnjay> moon-child: interesting. in WSL it makes a bell sound
<johnjay> hrm on my raspi as well
<johnjay> moon-child: do you have something in your tmux conf file that makes it a flash instead of a bell?
<johnjay> i guess it's just the regular console bell
<moon-child> johnjay: that only happens if it's in a background tab
<moon-child> try sleep 2;printf '\a', and switch away quickly from the tab
<johnjay> ohh i see
<johnjay> YES that is what i wanted.
* johnjay is always pleasantly surprised when the creator of a software product is not only not a moron, but actually has good features
<johnjay> i realized part of the reason i used tmux to begin with is you can't really predict how long a command will take
<johnjay> esp in WSL
<johnjay> a command might take .1 seconds or 10 minutes
<johnjay> so i was using tmux as a way to buffer that
<johnjay> but then what's the point of that if you can't make an alert sound or visual when it finshes
<moon-child> that has almost nothing to do with the reason I use terminal multiplexers :P
<johnjay> otherwise you would just background it
<moon-child> just background the command
<moon-child> shell will tell you when it's done
<johnjay> what do you use tmux for then
<moon-child> multiplexing!
<moon-child> being able to switch between multiple shells and editors. Maintaining distinct contexts
<johnjay> oh right. i mean i do that as well
<johnjay> but i guess you could also background those things too right
<johnjay> run emacs -nw then just C-Z and it's backgrounded
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<moon-child> sure
<moon-child> that's harder to scale, though, and involves more typing. Also no splits
<johnjay> splits? like when you split panes?
<moon-child> other reason is backgrounding, reattaching. Also attaching from multiple places concurrently
<moon-child> yeah
<johnjay> i haven't messed with that much. is that very useful?
<moon-child> not categorically. It is if you have a use for it
<johnjay> i know emacs does some of that with magit mode
<johnjay> or like you can edit the same file at different positions
<moon-child> I use it for my servers, and to share sessions between my laptop and my desktop
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<johnjay> meaning, you use a session on the desktop and then ssh in to use it on your laptop later?
<moon-child> yes (though more usually the other way around)
<johnjay> ah ok. see i would visualize the desktop as being the server, thus needing the running tmux instance or whatever it is
<moon-child> yeah, that's probably the more usual approach. I don't really like to use laptops--flat keyboards cause rsi!--so both are pretty much stationary. Just, some things happen to live on the laptop
<moon-child> (also laptop runs a different OS, so ssh into there when I wanna test something for portability)
<johnjay> yeah i hate laptop keyboards
<johnjay> part of why i procrastinate getting a new one
<johnjay> i think in emacs what i'm going to do is bite the bullet and use bigrams
<johnjay> you can process events like hitting 'xy' or 'kj' and attach user actions to those
<johnjay> i think that's going to be more portable between a laptop and a keyboard than using function keys or numpad or whatever
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* johnjay wonders if fedora installs were always this slow
<johnjay> in virtualbox. in qemu it took even longer without kvm
<geist> depends wat are you installing?
<geist> lots of times the disk io is the throughput
<geist> oh fedora. so probably x86
<klange> vbox disk io is almost magically fast even with the emulated standard hardware, though
<johnjay> maybe it's because i'm using an old ide drive for the disk and not the ssd. *shrug*
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<hgoel_> been a year, took a few days, but finally my os is back to booting \o/
<hgoel_> had to fix various interesting boot time bugs, but once those were sorted everything managed to work fine, up to even loading up the basic intel graphics 'driver' (reads the EDID etc)
<johnjay> nice
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<klange> Does more than my intel driver that skips that step ;)
<hgoel_> haha
<klange> (LVDS, the timings were already right, just had to fix the framebuffer size)
<hgoel_> ah yeah, that's probably more than enough for a practical driver
<hgoel_> I was just very interested in understanding the internals
<klange> I just wanted to stop staring at stretchy pixels on my test rig!
<klange> Not that I'm un-interested in the internals, but one thing at a time and I have too much other stuff on my plate.
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<hgoel_> haha yeah, I can understand that
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<hgoel_> I was also working on a wifi driver based on iwlwifi, although I think I was still sorting out the firmware upload before I gave up on it, radios are too complicated
<hgoel_> probably easier to find some usb dongle with an open specification
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<bslsk05> ​playlist? 'Samsung announces Snapdragon-powered Galaxy Book Go laptops from $349' - 'More Windows on Arm laptops are hitting the market'
<nur> these go on sale today apparently
<nur> cheap enough to play with! I wonder how hard it is to hack the firmware to allow custom OS booting
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<doug16k> wow, I just realized the age of powerpc
<doug16k> is that the oldest thing qemu emulates?
<doug16k> oh wait. s390x is older right
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<doug16k> no ppc is older
<doug16k> I guess linux on them is newer than ppc
<GeDaMo> 68K?
<doug16k> ya 68k is way older
<doug16k> I am looking at the mtree on ppc and it's isa and the a0000-bffff mmio window and stuff, I have -serial stdio, but no serial to be found
<doug16k> does it create a serial or does nothing happen if there isn't a serial port already?
<doug16k> it must be that machines have a serial already so often, this is the first time I have seen -serial stdio connect to nothing
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<doug16k> how do you halt ppc?
<doug16k> I have been searching for a while
<doug16k> as in wait for irq
<doug16k> think I found it HID0[DOZE] and MSR[WE]
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<doug16k> DOZE isn't found in manual
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<klange> alrighty then, responding to arp requests and pings sufficiently on real hardware, so that's... a start. ping replies at least make this slightly less terrible than the old stack
<sortie> Woot
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<klange> Three day weekend due to company holiday coming up, so we'll see what gets done for that...
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* gog meows
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<johnjay> so i was trying to install mediawiki and I was wondering is it a good idea to know the prereqs for stuff pretty well?
<johnjay> in theory something like apt or yum manages package prereqs but in practice a lot of them are informal
<johnjay> e.g. mediawiki needs 3 php modules but really it will install if you have 1 or 2 of them i think
<gog> yeah sometimes default configs include optional modules and the whole thing will be broken because of it
<gog> really depends on how well the maintainers coordinate
<johnjay> i don't know what it's called but fedora debian probably have a process to automate installs.
<gog> like recently manjaro changed pam configs to want systemd-homed but didn't install or add it to the startup
<gog> took me a couple days to figure out why nothing was working right
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<johnjay> alright fedora install in vbox take 2
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<johnjay> hrm i must be doing something wrong
<johnjay> when i remove the virtual fedora disk and restart it shows blank screen after the Vbox bios
<kc8apf> doug16k: what are you trying to do on PPC?
<kc8apf> early parts like 603 are quite different from, say, a 970mp or 85xx
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<doug16k> kc8apf, doing an exercise where I make a boot rom initialize the display and APs on all the architectures with PCI
<doug16k> ...that qemu emulates
<gog> dougboot
<gog> coredoug?
<doug16k> something like that
<kazinsal> dougboot sounds like a particularly canadian corruption of the word "tugboat"
<GeDaMo> dougstrap :P
<gog> :|
<kc8apf> ah, in that case, you'll need to pick a specific machine model and focus on that. PPC is used in all sorts of odd configurations with varying address space layouts and bootroms
<kc8apf> a PReP machine is quite different from a CHRP which is nothing like RS/6000 which is nothing like PS3
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<johnjay> just spent the last hour trying to figure out why x11 forwading doesn't work in WSL2
<johnjay> turns out WSL2 networking stack is completely different and you have an ip like
<kc8apf> isn't WSL2 a linux VM running under hyperv?
<johnjay> and Xming/Vcxsrv both dont' allow connections outside localhost so you have to find an option to disable it
<johnjay> yes but in WSL1 the networking put you on the same subnet.
<johnjay> so you could just run an app like leafpad or xclock and it would appear in the x server window
<johnjay> in WSL2 the networking is redone from scratch or something so then the default x servers reject it
<bslsk05> ​stackoverflow.com: windows 10 - How to set up working X11 forwarding on WSL2 - Stack Overflow
<kazinsal> yeah in WSL2 you get a separate virtual network interface on the windows side
<johnjay> idk if it's my ssd or wsl2 but emacs feels a lot less sluggish now
<johnjay> probably wsl2 is just better
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<kazinsal> wsl2 has much better I/O latency
<kazinsal> unfortunately hyper-V's third party hypervisor API (for eg. hooking VirtualBox in so it can run a VM while Hyper-V is enabled) isn't that great so if you have any other VMMs than Hyper-V running you are in for a bad time
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<johnjay> that might explain why virtualbox was being so slow
<johnjay> so it and WSL are competing for the same hyper-v resources?
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<kazinsal> virtualbox has to ask Hyper-V to execute stuff in VT-x hypervisor mode for it
<kazinsal> anything it would usually just slam out a VMX instruction for and run in kernel/hypervisor mode itself it needs to ask Hyper-V to do
<kazinsal> which means that there's a significant time penalty on all emulated hardware etc since VirtualBox doesn't delegate the hardware emulation to Hyper-V
<kazinsal> purely working within VirtualBox's own network stack I spend about 70% of my CPU time at bidirectional 1 Gbps throughput waiting for VBox to do its thing
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<kazinsal> when Hyper-V is introduced, VBox slows to a crawl and I get about 400 Mbps of bidirectional throughput at 90%+ CPU time waiting for vbox to do its thing
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<kazinsal> and it's not entirely Hyper-V's fault because in pure Hyper-V it's not that slow
<johnjay> i see
<kazinsal> it doesn't help that virtualbox's own network emulation code is real friggin slow
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<doug16k> kazinsal, which emulated NIC is it?
<doug16k> not that it would give it reason to be slow, just curious
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<doug16k> the worst nic imaginable should work at 100MB/s
<kazinsal> standard e1000
<kazinsal> virtualbox's software switch stack is really bad
<kazinsal> and having to deal with calls into Hyper-V for every single little thing it needs to do in hardware emulation slows it down to hell
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<doug16k> why virtualbox. qemu has a windows port
<doug16k> can download the free hypervisor from intel, or use the hyper-v integration. could be qemu does it better
<doug16k> or get rid of hyper-v: https://github.com/intel/haxm
<bslsk05> ​intel/haxm - Intel® Hardware Accelerated Execution Manager (Intel® HAXM) (497 forks/2081 stargazers/BSD-3-Clause)
<doug16k> I tested that on my brother's machine, it's really quick
<doug16k> assuming you mean intel machines
<doug16k> qemu supports that
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<johnjay> wait. did cp just overwrite a file without asking?
<clever> johnjay: always has
<johnjay> > -i prompt before overwrite
<clever> some distros will `alias cp=cp -vi` to prompt
<klange> [astronaut with Ohio state flag patch]
<johnjay> right that's the meme lol
<clever> klange: exactly why i used that wording :D
<klange> The one thing I still associate with re: my home state - that dovetail flag is cool.
<johnjay> doug16k: i'm not sure, the qemu on windows seemed slow as molasses. i can try it again to test
<klange> With haxm? I haven't poked any of that, I run QEMU under KVM through nested virtualization on WSL2 in Windows, to Xming.
<johnjay> klange: since i spent so much time figuring it out, did you just disable access control on Xming
<klange> And then I made the terrible decision to set up all my environment variables correctly for GNOME to do scaling, so every time I start QEMU I have to scale it back down to 1:1 or it'll be stupidly slow...
<johnjay> or have some HOSTS file or something else
<klange> johnjay: yes
<klange> I just run Xlaunch every time I go through the pages because I can't figure out how to pass it the dang config file.
<johnjay> ah ok. i thought maybe i was being caveman. grog need x11 connection. grog disable security. grog happy
<klange> And I have a little bit of bash setting DISPLAY on login based on the nameserver config.
<klange> Now if only I could figure out how to get pulse running and networking to a Windows build so I can have audio...
<klange> or more accurately, so I don't get three pages of ALSA errors when I start qemu.
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<klange> but that's less fun because the workaround for the latter is "just turn off your audio devices"
<johnjay> i saw a walkthrough for that.
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<johnjay> it involved configuring both wsl2 and then installing pulse.exe and configuring a bunch of stuff. and i thought yeah... no
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* kingoffrance has an uneasy feeling of deja vu for a moment, then it passes http://www.jcraft.com/jesd/ (note the win98 se screenshot) https://qemu-devel.nongnu.narkive.com/hK0KJzdH/esd-audio-output-patch-and-debuging https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2004-November/012461.html famous quote: "I don't know why and I'm not yet motivated to fix it since my views on esd are mostly unprintable." - - Alan Cox
<bslsk05> ​www.jcraft.com: JEsd -- Pure Java EsounD
<bslsk05> ​qemu-devel.nongnu.narkive.com: esd audio output patch and debuging.
<bslsk05> ​lists.ubuntu.com: ESD is freaking out my ALSA driver
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<kingoffrance> i never used qemu, i just streamed xmms
<kingoffrance> from a headless box without sound etc.
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