#openscad on 2024-02-08 — irc logs at libera.irclog.whitequark.org

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00:39 <gbruno> [github] Broshward opened issue #4978 (No holes in the importing SVG) https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/4978

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02:25 <pca006132> re: polygon behavior, I think it is just a fill rule problem: https://angusj.com/clipper2/Docs/Units/Clipper/Types/FillRule.htm

02:26 <pca006132> I think the one manifold uses is the Positive fill rule

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03:01 <kintel> pca006132 Yeah, it's most definitely a fillrule issue. Problem is how to maintain backwards compatibility with the current behavior, in the event it's actively being used today

03:02 <kintel> It's only really a problem for polygon() I think. In other places, like font rendering, we do use the Positive fill rule

03:03 <kintel> teepee Yes indeed, GitHub is starting to become a bit too powerful

03:04 <kintel> ..and they're just one CEO change away from cutting off all the free stuff for OSS projects : /

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03:53 <InPhase> kintel: That would be quite the earthquake to unleash.

03:55 <InPhase> And it would probably cause a catastrophic implosion of github with hostility toward Microsoft the likes of which they don't want to face, from one of the most powerful forces in technology: the collective will of programmers.

03:56 <InPhase> I'd like to think Microsoft is smarter than that.

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04:32 <pca006132> and I don't think using github specific features, e.g. cache, will make the project rely on GitHub that much

04:32 <pca006132> it is not complicated enough IMO

04:35 <kintel> InPhase Heh, yeah, they survived getting acquired, so let's hope they keep valuing the mass of OSS devs :)

04:36 <kintel> Caching is fine we use it for macOS deps; it's not pretty and we regularly have to wipe it to clean up older packages, but it kind of works

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05:53 <gbruno> [github] jordanbrown0 closed issue #4823 (documentation lacking for offset()) https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/4823

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06:36 <gbruno> [github] jordanbrown0 closed issue #4978 (No holes in the importing SVG) https://github.com/openscad/openscad/issues/4978

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07:57 <J24k47> Just a "RC" request popped up again (reddit) - and i wonder if we can't switch to a continuous version, mainly just renaming "snapshot" as "continuous stable release" to calm and ease some people

07:58 <J24k47> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_delivery

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07:59 <J24k47> I think we already have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_deployment CD with the snapshots

08:00 <J24k47> it is just the naming

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08:51 <rv__> re: github packages - I don't have experience with it, and from a quick read up I'm not sure what advantages it would bring

08:52 <rv__> if it was just about caching and saving disk space/compile time, I'm not sure the extra complexity is worth it

08:53 <rv__> I don't have experience with it either, but it seems that Azure Pipelines has 'unlimited' free versions for open source projects

08:53 <rv__> but that's undoubtedly only for some values of 'unlimited'

08:55 <rv__> I'd think though that there would have to be some way to convince Microsoft that providing a few bucks worth of hosting would be worth it to them?

08:56 <rv__> Does Openscad have a budget of literally 0? I'd think it wouldn't be that hard to convince a few companies that make money in this space to chip in a little bit. I'd probably be easier still if they'd only have to pay a CI bill rather than putting up with 'donations' and such.

08:56 <rv__> But probably this is a topic that has already been covered in the past :)

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09:24 <pca006132> I think improving CI time is worth it, it will be painful if the CI takes multiple hours to run, for every single PR

09:24 <pca006132> caching those dependencies is not really something hard to do

09:25 <pca006132> re. paying for CI, I don't think paying for GitHub action is that good, iirc they are much more expensive than ordinary servers with subpar hardware (e.g. it is where outdated data center hardware goes)

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09:38 <kahara> on the other hand, you'd pay for someone else to take care of those servers running the Actions, and could focus on more relevant stuff

09:42 <teepee> problem is that some of those services are just crazy expensive

09:43 <teepee> we do have some budget, but it's not like $1000 per month

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10:18 <rv__> I've been playing with Azure Pipelines CI, and I've requested free 'jobs' or whatever it was called, everywhere I can find it says that it's actually free for OS projects

10:19 <rv__> I've only been on this for like an hour and a half, including several breaks, and I already want to stab my eye out with a rusty fork

10:20 <rv__> If anyone has experience navigating Azure / Azure Pipelines and want to introduce me to all the nonsensical lingo and processes, I'd be very happy to accept

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11:25 <kahara> perhaps it has been mentioned already, but GitLab has an OSS program too. Their licensing system is "byzantine", though (to put it mildly).

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12:03 <gbruno> [github] gsohler synchronize pull request #4841 (Squashed commit of python_pr3) https://github.com/openscad/openscad/pull/4841

12:09 <rv__> OK well I have come to the following conclusions on my Azure Pipelines explorations. Azure Pipelines are set up to be run in a completely pristine environment each run. This means downloading all dependencies, building them, installing required non-standard tools etc. This would mean each CI run would take hours (depending on the specs of the VMs underlying the build process - on my 16 core Ryzen 9 it takes about an hour, I'd imagine

12:09 <rv__> it would take much longer on Azure. The sane thing to do would be to have a vm and do runs on that, but (I quote) "Building a Continuous Integration (CI) pipeline in Azure DevOps where the build runs on a VM that keeps state between pipeline runs is an advanced scenario. " (lol clown world). There is a Microsoft program though that donates Azure credits to open source projects, see https://opensource.microsoft.com/azure-credits/#credi

12:09 <rv__> ts-overview . This involves an application process for which you have to enter a bunch of details on the project. My question is: is there anyone 'official' who can request this, or alternatively, is there anyone who can and wants to 'authorize' me to do so on behalf of Openscad as a project. I imagine this would involve not much more than being wiling to answer some emails on/from an email address listed on the website, but I'm not

12:09 <rv__> sure about that yet.

12:10 <teepee> we do have a file server we could use as cache store

12:10 <teepee> as for official, that would probably be kintel or myself

12:11 <teepee> if we need an actual openscad.org mail as source, that may need some work as the mail provider decided to make some bigger changes

12:12 <teepee> receiving is not an issue

12:15 <InPhase> Have the modern-requested dns changes been made to openscad.org to reduce spam flagging? I had to make a set of those for my own domain. If that hasn't been done, let me know. I forget what they were, but can check and dig that information back out again for advice in resolving it.

12:17 <teepee> I think the outgoing mailbox is not active right now, due to the changes they made, it would need to be migrated. I believe I saw DKIM disabled, but it's just an option to flip on I assume

12:17 <teepee> for the incoming, no idea, that's all handled by gandi

12:17 <teepee> the big issue we had a couple of month ago was the mailing list as that is externally hosted and that did not have DKIM/SPF/DMARC setup fully

12:18 <teepee> but it's good to know you have some insight into that topic, I would not claim to 100% understand it

12:19 <teepee> the biggest offender was GMX where my mail is hosted as they don't even bother to send out DMARC reports

12:26 <teepee> rv__: I'll fill out the form, lets see how it goes, says 3-4 weeks for decision

12:28 <teepee> well, and there's a problem

12:36 <rv__> OK let's wait for any response on free Azure credits then - unless that form is the problem you're referring to?

12:37 <teepee> yes, it is

12:40 <InPhase> teepee: I would rephrase "insight" as "a proven history of success with or without suggested insight". ;)

12:45 <teepee> totally good enough :)

12:45 <rv__> OK well the announcement of Azure credits for open source was done by @fossygrl on Twitter, from her Linkedin bio she still seems to be at Microsoft; probably the easiest way to get into this program is contacting her directly.

12:49 <InPhase> Also if we ever need to reconstruct our server and services stack for openscad.org to make things work smoother, you can come to me. I usually succeed at this sort of Linux server task at home and work, and know how to be a stable person who doesn't run off into the evil things with root access. :) And OpenSCAD remains on my "worth time to help" list.

12:49 <teepee> openscad.org is just the github repo :)

12:50 <InPhase> Yeah. Doesn't have to be though.

12:50 <teepee> which I'm not tempted to convert to generated stuff via sveltekit as I was a bit expectedly forced to learn this

12:51 <teepee> files.openscad.org is mostly ansible but it would be cool to find a way of testing that setup locally

12:51 <InPhase> We could run our own site, mail services, file serving, and maybe even some basic build stuff, and it wouldn't even be expensive. We'd just need an idea of what we really want.

12:51 <teepee> https://github.com/openscad/openscad-ansible

12:52 <teepee> well, CI stuff is there, *for linux*

12:52 <teepee> the question would be if there's a (legal!) way of running windows too

12:52 <teepee> https://github.com/openscad/openscad-ci

12:53 <teepee> getting mail on that server would be a neat option I think. lets discuss with kintel

12:54 <teepee> that would remove the need to figure out the gandi migration stuff, they still host the DNS, but maybe even that could be migrated at some point

12:54 <teepee> but so far the DNS service is fine

12:56 <InPhase> At work I also run some private git services on VPS for some stuff we want to control access to with better granularity. So if github ever DID decide to go wonky on how it treats open source projects, and bring back restrictions on private repositories, this is not hard to do either.

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13:05 <InPhase> I've successfully run a private listserv as well, but I last did it 22 years ago. A few things have changed since then obviously. The one in that list I don't know a plausible answer direction to from past experience is Windows CI. :)

13:06 <InPhase> Although it sounds like something worth knowing.

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13:34 <pca006132> is running the windows iso in a vm illegal?

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13:42 <pca006132> I saw people saying that running the iso in the first 30 days is without restriction, but no idea about the details terms and conditions

13:42 <pca006132> can't find the official page on microsoft, wonder if they are making it hard to access deliberately

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13:53 <pca006132> > You are authorized to use this software only if you are properly licensed and the software has been properly activated with a genuine product key or by other authorized method.

13:53 <pca006132> meh

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13:54 <pca006132> and I think you are not allowed to install it in a server vm even for trial

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14:12 <Bambukah> Hello everybody :)

14:16 <Bambukah> I have a question: I'm from the soft/web development world and I want to know if some Standard Recommendations coding style exists for OpenSCAD (like PSR1 and PSR-12 for PHP or PEP-8 for Python)

14:17 <InPhase> Bambukah: Nope. What we have is a manual with suggestions and examples, a tips and tricks / FAQ section of the user manual, a tutorial that contains some recommended best practices, and a calendar demonstrating a variety of usage styles.

14:17 <InPhase> Bambukah: Also we have an IRC channel where people sit around going, "I wouldn't do that. I recommend doing X instead." ;)

14:18 <Bambukah> InPhase OK :) Thank you for your answer!

14:19 <InPhase> And certainly nothing standardized written up for layout, although we have a few sets of preferences. For example, everyone but Ulrich agrees it's important to press the space bar. ;)

14:19 <Bambukah> If I ask, it's because I think about one thing : If 2 or 3 people work on a model but have 2 or 3 different "coding style", the result can be unreadable for others.

14:20 <Bambukah> @in

14:20 <InPhase> Bambukah: That can happen. Although it's generally recommended to line things up with how the first contributer did things, most of the time.

14:20 <Bambukah> InPhase, the space bar for tabs ? ;)

14:21 <InPhase> Bambukah: I mean, using spaces of any kind. ;) Although spaces over tabs is overwhelmingly preferred among the OpenSCAD community. I almost never see tabbed content. (Except that recent file I grabbed from teepee over there.)

14:22 <Bambukah> my vision is a bit impaired, and it's so cool when signs have spaces BEFORE and AFTER, it's so important for understanding

14:23 <InPhase> Bambukah: The Ulrich comment was mostly just an inside joke. He habitually writes long sequences of code without 300 character lines and no spaces between parameters or elements of the line except where strictly syntactically necessary.

14:23 <InPhase> s/without/with/

14:23 <InPhase> Which naturally leads to, "What... is this?" :)

14:23 <Bambukah> HAHA, I call that "Obfuscation" ROFL

14:25 <Bambukah> InPhase Do you have a document about the best practices to create an OpenSCAD file, please ?

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14:38 <Bambukah> I'm really new to OpenSCAD universe (my first try was last week)

14:38 <Bambukah> But I already do some thing to help me in real-life with my disease. And it's so good to "code" my needed props

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14:41 <InPhase> tutorial?

14:41 <othx> tutorial is The OpenSCAD tutorial is a great place to learn how to create designs in OpenSCAD, and can be found at: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_Tutorial

14:41 <InPhase> Bambukah: ^ This is the best place to start.

14:42 <InPhase> Bambukah: It has integrated advice along with the examples worked through.

14:42 <InPhase> And if your code starts out looking like those examples, you're in a good starting place. :)

14:45 <Bambukah> Ok, thank you Very much !

14:45 <Bambukah> I'll do my best and come back to show you a real-life model I use :)

14:53 <InPhase> Good luck! :)

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15:31 <Bambukah> Thank you InPhase and thank you also for your patience :) Have a Nice day (or night, I don't know)

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17:18 <teepee> pca006132: I don't mind if we need to get a license, if conditions are reasonable

17:19 <teepee> what's not reasonable is Apple conditions where you are only allowed to run on Apple hardware, that's just plain hostile which is why I'm never going to extend futher than just having an iphone where I don't care *that* much as I actually use it as phone ;-)

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17:34 <InPhase> I think cost/benefit for the upper tier androids (e.g., the Pixel line) is much better.

17:35 <InPhase> Unless you just like where you're used to the icons being. :)

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17:50 <teepee> cheap-ish company phone, I don't need the fancies latest one

18:01 <InPhase> Cost/benefit of "somebody else bought it for me" is often better. :)

18:02 <teepee> yep

18:02 <teepee> well, it's still sort-of me :)

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18:08 <kintel> Generally, I think hardware-locked Windows Pro licenses are pretty cheap, but I'm uncertain how they play with VMs or Docker. I never bothered registering mine - I guess I'm a perpetual trial user, just have to live with some popups and limited config options. ..which is fine for a OS I boot one a week at most ;)

18:09 <teepee> at home I just use the winddows licence from an old win7 laptop upgraded to win10

18:09 <kintel> In terms of adding more services to our Linux server. I'm all for it :) I feel that managing outgoing email is one of the trickiest things one can do, but I've only observed that from a distance.

18:09 <teepee> but no idea what's officially needed for having a linux hosted CI windows

18:10 <teepee> the gandi mailbox is currently offline if I understand their dashboard correctly, so it did not auto-migrate

18:10 <kintel> Yeah, it's dead. ..but the incoming aliases work.

18:11 <teepee> we can try migrating mail to our server

18:11 <teepee> yep, forwarding is fine

18:11 <kintel> I've only ever needed outgoing email once for verification purposes

18:11 <teepee> if we move the mx record we would need to migrate those too

18:11 <teepee> well, having outgoing addresses would be nice :)

18:14 <teepee> so queued as not-very-high-critical task I suppose

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22:36 <pca006132> I always just buy sub 300 USD smart phones

22:36 <pca006132> their processing power and size is enough for me, I don't game on my phone :)

22:37 <pca006132> and they last for 4+ years for me, which is fine IMO, no need for a phone that lasts for too long

22:37 <pca006132> my only complain is that their cameras are really bad, will probably buy a legit camera for traveling later...

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22:55 <peepsalot> i got a used/refurb pixel 6a in march last year (so i think 1 gen behind at the time) that's been great for me, cost me like $250. that was me using swappa for the first time.

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23:24 <InPhase> peepsalot: Hard to replace batteries are usually the first thing to go for me on modern phones, so I usually avoid used or refurbished.

23:26 <peepsalot> well yeah but its like 1/3 or 1/4 the price of a new pixel

23:27 <peepsalot> battery capacity is probably worse than new, but not unbearable.

23:34 <peepsalot> of course there's always some amount of risk going with refurb, but in my case I feel like I got a good deal.

23:54 <JordanBrown1> I'm an iPhone fan (though I'm generally a Windows fan for home computers).

23:55 <JordanBrown1> For a phone / PDA I want something that Just Works, and my perception is that Apple does that better than Android.