ChanServ changed the topic of #linux-rockchip to: Rockchip development discussion
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<Jmabsd>
Guys, there as an RK3399 based laptop before called Acer C101. By chance do you know if anyone succeeded with installing alternative OS/Linux on it??
<Jmabsd>
mps: Do you know the ARM64 laptops market, I could be glad to buy a small good one. The Asus C101 has the RK3399, it should be one of the "less bad" ones
<mps>
looks like it gru flavor
<mps>
I run linux on rk3399 gru-kevin for about 5 years
<Jmabsd>
RK3399 has PCIe support right. the PineBook Pro has M.2 but is sold out
<Jmabsd>
hm, gru-kevin what is that
<Jmabsd>
thanks for pointing to! indeed looks positive
<Jmabsd>
mps: oh wait wait wait, there is also the "Asus Chromebook Plus"!!! I had no idea they made two
<mps>
gru-kevin is a variant of base gru chromebook board, gru-bob is another
<Jmabsd>
apologies - *Samsung* made the other one. so Acer made one RK3399 laptop, and Samsung one. interesting.
<mps>
Jmabsd: yes, my daughter use "Asus Chromebook Plus" daily, I had to give it to her ;)
<mps>
these two is very similar
<mps>
s/is/are/
<mps>
she use krita for graphic design on it
<mps>
so it is still quite good enough though it is old
<mps>
though in my experience big distros are slower than alpine linux
<Jmabsd>
mps: Is there both "Asus Chromebook Plus" and "Samsung Chromebook Plus"? =o
<Jmabsd>
mps: are you aware of any small ARM64 laptops with an M.2 slot in it
<Jmabsd>
oh, MT8195 looks like a fast CPU but with a low RAM cap, 4GB
<mps>
Jmabsd: I don't know for any rk3399 board with more than 4GB ram
<mps>
also about M.2 interface, I don't know if any chromebook have it
<mps>
chromebooks are not designed for develepoers but for 'normal' (I would call them google users) users
<Jmabsd>
are there any chromebooks with 8GB RAM??? 16??
<Jmabsd>
mps: what about MT8192&MT8195 or any other ARM
<mps>
Jmabsd: I didn't looked at buying chromebooks in last 3 years, waiting for first riscv64 board and hope than in future there will be notebooks on market
<Jmabsd>
mps: For RiscV, SiFive Unmatched??
<mps>
so don't know characteristics of new ones
<mps>
Jmabsd: my son bought apple M1 to me and I'm satisified with it for now
<mps>
it should be, though I didn't had any box with A76
<Jmabsd>
mps,wens: may I bug you with one more "does such an ARM laptop exist" question =) are you aware of any quite lightweight tiny nice ARM64 laptop, ideally with M.2 storage? 8GB RAM not needed 4GB is ok
<mps>
Jmabsd: I don't know for any, which doesn't mean such things doesn't exists
<Jmabsd>
mps,wens: interesting, someone points out "Cortex A78 cores perform like Skylake cores from what I've seen" and "Mediatek MT8195 and Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx have A78 cores"
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<Jmabsd>
mps: You know what, if among somehow-consumer priced, somehow-carryable ARM64 the Apple M1 is the King right now, perhaps the HoneyComb/ClearFog LX1 is the queen just because it's quite decent afterall - maybe then the Rockchip RK3588 would be the prince of ARM right now, it's tinier than the LX2 motherboard, much less CPU power, but still proper PCI bus and 32GB RAM, and its physical footprint is quite small. The rest of the ARM market is noise
<Jmabsd>
really - the Snapdragon could be something but come on the Linux support seems to be a decade in the future. Mediatek apparently will have no SBC:s but only a Chromebook, duh. eMag and Altera are nice but they are ATX big chassi sized.
<Jmabsd>
macc24: ^ for you too :)
<macc24>
"proper PCI bus"
<macc24>
...
<macc24>
at least get the terminology right
<mps>
Jmabsd: my experience is whatever I bought I made mistake
<mps>
and I don't like to give advises around, choose that what you think will best be for you
<Jmabsd>
macc24: 'PCIe support' or 'PCIe interface'
<Jmabsd>
mps: the number of ARM64 computers that make sense is so small, asking myself what I missed
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<mps>
my peach pi (samsung exynos-5800 arm32) chromebook doesn't have PCIe, not does Acer R13 (mediatek mt8172 arm64) but both were and still are usable for me
<mps>
mt8173*
<mps>
few months ago someone somewhere told me that in Poland used chromebooks could be bought for 100-200 euros
<Jmabsd>
mps: Did you run Linux on them
<mps>
Jmabsd: ofc, in last 28 years I use only linux
<Jmabsd>
some secure boot magick to make the laptop totally closed??
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, you can expect some of that and also a refusal to make documentation available or otherwise help out getting Linux to run on the chips
<psydroid>
this is why I generally stay away from anything with Qualcomm chips
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: What a disgusting, useless company
<psydroid>
they are chasing the unicorn Windows market for ARM laptops that doesn't actually exist
<Jmabsd>
I had that gutfeeling about them all the time
<Jmabsd>
Idiots
<Jmabsd>
they acquired that higher-performance ARM core company
<Jmabsd>
smart move
<psydroid>
and if Windows ends up running well on ARM chips and everything moves over, it will be Intel and AMD who will probably start heavily investing in RISC-V designs of their own to offer something competitive
<psydroid>
yes, but I think that will also be tied to Windows
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: They are nuts. Also I see Mediatek has a tendency to not allow any SBC:s for their SoC:s
<Jmabsd>
Useless too, nuts
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, Mediatek also wants in on the Windows on ARM market and has expressed a willingness to put Microsoft's Pluton in its chips
<psydroid>
so yes, they are all useless and we may have better chances getting hardware from the Chinese mainland for running free operating systems
<Jmabsd>
What is "Pluton", an execution squad?
<psydroid>
like my Orange Pi, which is fine but slow
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, I think I've given you a lot of information today, but I hope you are aware of what minefield we are currently dealing with and only because companies prefer being malicious to simply selling good products that their customers may want to buy in large numbers
<psydroid>
so yes, give me RK3588 or Apple M1
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: OMG factor yea
<Jmabsd>
duh. I actually had a bad gutfeeling about Qualcomm already
<psydroid>
the at least I can run what I want on my devices
<psydroid>
then*
<Jmabsd>
I dislike Intel by the way, I also suspect the binary legacy tradition is "not secure"
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: right thank you for sharing these various insights. yeah. i think for powerful ARM computing.. in this moment probably i'd just take an LX2
<Jmabsd>
RK3588 doesn't really have OS support yet, not sure??? it needs a while
<Jmabsd>
OpenBSD needs RK3588 donations.
<Jmabsd>
but, an RK3588 SBC is/can be *smaller* than the LX2 which is a full mini-ITX chassi with a nanoATX PSU so like 18x18x7CM maybe
<Jmabsd>
re speed not sure. i hope we'll see more good CPU:s come up also. like what about some really great RISCV.
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, the only thing to be aware of when it comes to LX2, is that it may take a long time to arrive
<Jmabsd>
you mean they process orders slow? =o
<Jmabsd>
by the way Raspberry Pi CM4 with 8GB RAM is an OK computer
<psydroid>
the company isn't clear and open when it comes to delays
<psydroid>
yes
<Jmabsd>
A72.
<psydroid>
I've heard of 2-3 months without much news as to when it will actually arrive
<Jmabsd>
oh dear i see.
<psydroid>
I have avoided Raspberry Pi so far because of its closed firmware based on ThreadX
<Jmabsd>
what is ThreadX?
<Jmabsd>
I'm aware Raspberry have closed firmware "issues" but I have not quite understood what extent or such, like how bad is it
<psydroid>
that's why I went with an Orange Pi years ago
<psydroid>
a real-time OS created by a company that was purchased by Microsoft last year
<psydroid>
you are completely dependent on the Raspberry Pi Foundation
<psydroid>
drivers have had issues for years
<psydroid>
so while the Orange Pi was initially badly supported all the work done eventually got upstreamed and included in distributions such as Debian
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<psydroid>
I run pure Debian on mine with a custom kernel
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: "Go to mrchromebox.tech to find out how to replace the BIOS with the FULL ROM, after which you should be able to boot from USB. I've never tried to boot OpenBSD from USB on a Chromebook, but I don't know any reason why you couldn't. I'd be curious how much of the Chromebook hardware is supported out of the box in OpenBSD 6.6." https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/e1heij/openbsd_66_on_a_samsung_chromebook/ hah
<psydroid>
just because Debian's default kernel doesn't support the device, as far as I know
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: what kind of driver issues have Raspberry had?
<Jmabsd>
that hardware is supported on Debian is a good sign.
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: uh what's the relevance in having a particular OS for firmware??
<Jmabsd>
also Raspberry are closed source why, their Foundation wants to be sure noone copies them?...
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, the graphics driver wasn't very good for a long time, although that may have changed
<psydroid>
Raspberry Pi people came from Broadcom
<Jmabsd>
interesting. i was always surprised why Raspberry became popular. They are really nothing special.
<Jmabsd>
They are based in United Kingdom so they have a bit of language/culture benefit over an Asian garage startup
<psydroid>
and they use Broadcom chips with closed components that they can't/won't reveal
<Jmabsd>
in communication. but like, Raspberry have not been innovative. they did a relatively good job at organizing what they do
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: what are they hiding
<Jmabsd>
anyhow all that is odd.
<psydroid>
Raspberry Pi has "good" support from the very first day
<Jmabsd>
i looked at 2K res on a Pi and it looked OK. but i did not try video or such
<psydroid>
it takes longer to achieve that with other boards
<psydroid>
but at least it is developed by a real community
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, just business decisions
<Jmabsd>
https://mrchromebox.tech/#devices interesting so this is a firmware replacement web site for Intel based chromebooks, sigh.
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: yeah Raspberry is just a random SBC company but with a bit more community
<Jmabsd>
again i'm surprised why anyone ever bothered about Raspberry. maybe they have delivered a bit more consistently than others, and kept consistently low prices
<vagrantc>
psydroid: does mainline linux support the device? wouldn't be terribly hard to add to debian's kernel if so...
<psydroid>
they've removed barriers for newcomers who don't know much about Linux and don't want to fiddle with their installations
<psydroid>
vagrantc, yes, I just build upstream vanilla kernels
<psydroid>
I can share my config with you tomorrow
<psydroid>
it would save me the hassle of building new kernels every few months
<vagrantc>
raspberry took off because of the right marketing at the right time
<vagrantc>
it'll be a bit hard for me to get it enabled without the board to test on, but maybe it'll be something obvious
<Jmabsd>
psydroid: It seems to me a lot of products are made for a demographic of "stupid" customers that I am not even sure exists
<vagrantc>
well, they successfully targeted the education market ...
<psydroid>
I don't think I can do much about that unless I send you the board for the greater good of getting it supported out of the box on Debian
<vagrantc>
they just bolted some spare GPUs onto a board that happened to have a CPU attached, as i understand it :)
<vagrantc>
i had some orange pi plus 2 boards for a while, but haven't been using them recently ... not sure how different those are
<psydroid>
I bought 2 of them 5 years ago and gave one to a friend
<psydroid>
yeah :)
<vagrantc>
pretty sure they're sunxi chips?
<psydroid>
yes, allwinner a64
<psydroid>
they don't sell it anymore
<psydroid>
running debian arm64
<psydroid>
I run everything on it, as in all of Debian
<psydroid>
Jmabsd, even if the hardware ends up in a drawer, that's still a sale they made
<Jmabsd>
Allwinner A64 was the first ultracheap ARM64.
<Jmabsd>
64bit.
<psydroid>
in the future I should probably send a spare SBC to a Debian developer to help accelerate the process
<vagrantc>
yup, i've got all sorts of them
<Jmabsd>
RK3399 should be exponentially faster than Allwinner A64 shouldn't it
<Jmabsd>
But the Allwinner was historic indeed
<psydroid>
I didn't really think of it at the time because I thought one of the Debian developers would already have one
<psydroid>
yes
<vagrantc>
yeah, rk3399 is much nicer ... i've been running on pinebook-pro almost exclusively lately
<psydroid>
and the great thing is that this $5 chip is well supported by Debian and probably other distributions
<Jmabsd>
vagrantc: awaw I want a Pinebook Pro ISO =o
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<Jmabsd>
it's the most sensible ARM laptop. (apart from Apple.)
<Jmabsd>
I browsed ARM chromebooks/netbooks now, they are so crap seriosly
<psydroid>
Allwinner A200 might be interesting
<vagrantc>
yeah, i ran on the original pinebook for most of a year too (had a phase of back to x86_64 for a while until i got the solar back up)
<psydroid>
I haven't plunged into ARM laptops so far
<psydroid>
I just ssh into my Orange Pi and do things there
<psydroid>
of course with the root on an SSD and only using the SD card for u-boot, kernel, dtb and config