michaelni changed the topic of #ffmpeg-devel to: Welcome to the FFmpeg development channel | Questions about using FFmpeg or developing with libav* libs should be asked in #ffmpeg | This channel is publicly logged | FFmpeg 7.0 has been released! | Please read ffmpeg.org/developer.html#Code-of-conduct
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<kurosu>
More probably patents. Telcos (revenues) have immensely suffered from royalties that they are all doing it. Check the largest brands, they're all here and there
<kurosu>
I would add, in particular if they want to sell outside China
<Lynne>
docx in zip
<kurosu>
Codec-wise, AV1/opus/IAMF everywhere could improve this, but for now, it's a dual world, where you ideally support RF-encumbered technologies and not
<kurosu>
Lynne: isn't docx really a zipped set of XML files? But not sure what you are replying/discussing
<Lynne>
it is, but all their meeting notes are in docx, zipped
<Lynne>
we had PDFs for av1
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<kurosu>
You mean people wrote docx they then converted to PDF (I'm jesting)
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<Daemon404>
Lynne, lies, av1 had random google docs links
<Daemon404>
luckily av2 is now Very Professional and switched to docx
<Lynne>
hey, there was at least one person who used ipynb
<Lynne>
did it really switch to docx?
<Daemon404>
yes
<Daemon404>
with a bespoke doc management systen
<Daemon404>
and undecipherable doc names making all notifications uselss
<Daemon404>
basically they copypasted mpeg.
<Daemon404>
they aslo abandoned all use of the mailing list
<Lynne>
did they switch to causeway or gitlab?
<Lynne>
khronos is causeway, plus gitlab for all spec proposals, discussions and code sharing
<Daemon404>
gitlab
<Daemon404>
all proposals and stuff are in docx
<Lynne>
ugh, awful
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<Daemon404>
was bound to happen
<Lynne>
khronos uses, you're not going to believe it, .adoc
<Lynne>
asciidoc documents that automatically get rendered in MRs
<Daemon404>
oh also they do Dear Experts now
* Daemon404
googles .adoc
<Daemon404>
lol
<Daemon404>
asciidoc.
<kurosu>
Daemon404: you're not the only around here with that opinion. Which I find exaggerated? Maybe things happen outside the ML (yet "Focus Group" reports are available and mails linking to them posted there), but I think mails are automatically sent when documents are registered or uploaded
<kurosu>
At least I always have found all I wanted in my inbox
<kurosu>
But again, you're not the only one, so there has to be some truth in it - it just depends on the persons
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<Daemon404>
kurosu, NO technical discussion or review happens on the list
<Daemon404>
and the upload emails are literally useless
<Daemon404>
jumbles of numbers
<Daemon404>
unless it is your full time job to follow this stuff, theyve made it insanely inaccessible
<kurosu>
Ah, ok, sure, development is not(/no longer?) ML-based. I don't have prior experience of the AV1 time, sorry for being confused on what your issue was
<Daemon404>
stuff is is meetings, not written down, and even if you DO log in to the document management system to check every single CWG-6e73838.doc to see what it is, it lackd all sorrs of contexy
<Daemon404>
without attending every possible meeting
<Daemon404>
yeah av1 had large email based discussions, which google hated
<Daemon404>
because it meant paper trail
<Daemon404>
(an excessive amount of "focus groups" i also dislike but not enough to comment on it)
<kurosu>
The meetings are recorded and there are (summarized) notes, but I can see your point. I probably didn't have to dig deep or really need a precise answer
<kurosu>
Maybe the redflag is 2H meeting/week is no longer enough, and people are not being concise/precise/can argue ad nauseam
<kurosu>
(it probably stopped being sufficient during AV1 as well, I don't know)
<Daemon404>
that happened in av1 too
<Daemon404>
theyd say they would discuss offline or on list between meetings
<Daemon404>
but then wouldnt and wed have the same meeting next week
<Daemon404>
repeat.
<Daemon404>
i am mostly grumpy i cant casually follow development anymore (as it is not my job)
<kurosu>
Is there still an #aom room around here? :D (subtle attempt at pulling under the rug the issues [kidding, as well])
<Daemon404>
often i found people casually following could still contribute responses meaningfully
<kurosu>
Daemon404: anyway yes, it has become a full time job if you want to meaningfully contribute - but I thought it was more the complexity of everything rather than the development model
<Daemon404>
it is both
<Daemon404>
like i said, its a copypaste of mpeg ;)
<Daemon404>
only less open
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<wbs>
we've got a .travis.yml file in our repo, which most probably isn't used - should we just remove it?
<Daemon404>
yes
<Daemon404>
(travis is basically dead, peoole use githib actions noe)
<Daemon404>
now*
<wbs>
yep
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<tmatth>
kurosu: there's an #aomedia room but it's pretty dead
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<cone-184>
ffmpeg Gyan Doshi master:38c322681e97: avformat/ivfenc: remove unused var
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<BBB>
Daemon404: we all expected this, TBH
<BBB>
"open dev" is just PR/marketing. these companies thrive in secrecy
<Lynne>
it's not so bad, at least the repo is public, and all experiments
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<Daemon404>
BBB, well yes
<Daemon404>
im just glad we got av1 first.
<Daemon404>
F in the ffchat
<mkver>
Five year plans? I thought the Soviet Union collapsed.
<jamrial>
AI :(
<tmatth>
should go full softbank/dune and do a 300 year plan
<michaelni>
mkver, they had a five year plan to collaps ?
<Daemon404>
mkver, thanks, i laughed irl
<michaelni>
jamrial, why are you unhappy ?
<michaelni>
you dont like AI ?
<jamrial>
not really. at least not how it's currently being used
<michaelni>
we wouldnt use it that way. We would use it as we consider it usefull
<michaelni>
neural network based filters can do many things that non NN filters have not been able to so if we want to stay competetive we will need to move into that direction
<Daemon404>
none of those projects listed should be *in* ffmpeg
<Daemon404>
but should *use* it
<Lynne>
I recommend waiting, currently the AI field is in constant motion, I think there will eventually be a generic and optimal algorithm for applying it to media data, but not now
<michaelni>
Daemon404, for FFchat it can be written outside, AI filters and codecs can only be outside if theres a plugin architecture that allows components to be outside
<Daemon404>
i also have to ask (because tinfol hat): is this mail in any way related to STF work.
<jamrial>
i haven't seen anything related to that in a while
<michaelni>
not this year, but if we find agreement on something then we can ask STF next year for funding for something
<jamrial>
agree, and with a bit more time to discuss
<jamrial>
months, not a few weeks
<michaelni>
8 months till next year
<Daemon404>
ok
<BtbN>
So far "Add AI to ffmpeg" resulted in some people adding the next heavy weight latest hot neural network library to ffmpeg every six months, cause the previous ones keep dieing or something
<BtbN>
"AI" for me has become a synonym for "bullshit" by now anyway, so I'm happy to sit out the hype
<AMM>
I'm kind of annoyed that it gets being called "AI", but also glad because you can tell apart the people talking about ML
<BBB>
tmatth: the 300year plan was 3-body problem
<BBB>
Daemon404: btw re: gpac/booth, I saw the same tweets and didn't post further because you had already asked the same question
<BBB>
I agree it doesn't feel right that gpac folks get to use our brand to promote their own (unrelated) things
<BBB>
it feels very iffy
<Daemon404>
BBB, i am also told thilo emailed them privately to ask to talk
<Daemon404>
rather than on list.
<Daemon404>
shady.
<jamrial>
told by whom?
<Daemon404>
devin
<Daemon404>
also gpac is looking to expand into ffmpeg consulting.
<jamrial>
well, that's not ok at all
<Daemon404>
and purposely ignoring my original thread was?
<BBB>
what's not ok at all?
<BBB>
gpac doing ffmpeg consulting is fine
<BBB>
anyone can do any consulting as far as I care
<Daemon404>
having them sitting on the offcial ffmpeg booth selling it isnt
<jamrial>
BBB: i mean thilo not doing this stuff publicly, and the GA not taking part of it
<Daemon404>
and yes that
<BBB>
right, the project name is trademarked, I don't think they can use it without permission
<BBB>
not that we can do anything about it
<Daemon404>
it isnt in the usa.
<BBB>
because we don't actually own the trademark
<Daemon404>
youre thinking about this legally and not from a project/community perspective.
<BBB>
thilo aside
<BBB>
if thilo wasn't there, would you be unhappy?
<BBB>
(about the nab booth situation)
<Daemon404>
yes
<Daemon404>
a lot.
<BBB>
so what do you want to do about it
<Daemon404>
having an ffmpeg booth unmanned by anyone but gpac people is unacceptable
<BBB>
but what do you want to do about it
<Daemon404>
the time to act was *before* NAB
<Daemon404>
but you all bloody ignoredd me
<BBB>
I agreed and felt there was nothing to add
<BBB>
what do you want me to do?
<Daemon404>
what to do now is to make sure it doesnt happen again.
<BBB>
email NAB and legally threaten them that they're using a trademarked logo I have legal means to defend?
<Daemon404>
and to get thilo to answer in public about wtf happened
<BBB>
but we *can't do anything*
<BBB>
we don't own the rights
<BBB>
gpac can do whatever they please
<jamrial>
and we could maybe make an announcement saying the booth had no relation with the project
<Daemon404>
it wasnt gpac who made the booth
<BBB>
if we don't want them to do this, we need to trademark the logo
<Daemon404>
it was thilo (US!)
<Daemon404>
and invted gpac
<Daemon404>
THAT can be stopped
<Daemon404>
in the future
<BBB>
thilo invited gpac?
<Daemon404>
YES
<Daemon404>
fucking hell
<BBB>
are you sure it's not the other way around?
<jamrial>
Daemon404: calm down, please
<BBB>
why would thilo invite gpac
<BBB>
gpac have been doing ffmpeg consulting for years
<Daemon404>
ill let you think about that more.
<BBB>
and who was this "anonymous booth donor"
* Daemon404
feels like everyone is super naive here
<BBB>
I'm not gonna suggest anything
<BBB>
my tinfoil hat is at home and stays there
<BBB>
I'm not saying thilo is super innocent
<Daemon404>
even if you remove all these shenanigans
<BBB>
but it's not naive to suggest gpac may have paid for the booth and had consulting goals there
<BBB>
whether thilo wants in on that is interesting but suggestive
<Daemon404>
no as if there is some weird fflabs proxy war lately :)
<Daemon404>
not*
<BBB>
fflabs and gpac should be the same thing from our perspective
<BBB>
or two orioles, for that matter. or kieran's obs
<Daemon404>
agreed
<Daemon404>
what i dont think is acceptable is how the booth as organized by one person who can ignore this stuff and put commercial entities on the both
<Daemon404>
it is legal, yes
<Daemon404>
what i dont link is how it is acceptable on a community level
<BBB>
I agree with your frustration, if thilo refuses to answer, I'm not sure what we can do about it
<BBB>
I can't shake an answer out of him, y'know
<Daemon404>
normal functioning communities remove problematic members.
<BBB>
I think you should propose a GA vote on that, if you believe that's the right thing to do
<Daemon404>
wouldnt it be CC
<jamrial>
CC can't ban anyone permanently
<jamrial>
just temporarily. a full ban needs a GA vote, afaik
<BBB>
yes
<Daemon404>
i dont think step 1 is permaban.
<BBB>
The CC can remove privileges of offending members, including removal of commit access and temporary ban from the community.
<BBB>
note the word temporary in that sentence
<jamrial>
first it would be nice to hear thilo's explanation and justification for this
<Daemon404>
he purposely has not responded in public
<BBB>
Indefinite bans from the community must be confirmed by the General Assembly, in a majority vote.
<BBB>
thilo: can you please respond to derek's email on-list?
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<BBB>
kierank: " <@jamrial> and we could maybe make an announcement saying the booth had no relation with the project" is probably a good idea - on twitter?
<kierank>
Just to be clear, Ramiro was at the booth too
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<kierank>
BBB: anonymous booth donor is cosmin
<BBB>
hm... that's nice of cosmin (hi!) but then gpac ending up on that booth is indeed a bit strange
<thilo>
The first thing is that I reach out to Devin to get his full story before replying
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<thilo>
sharing a booth with another project is nothing strange at all. we we shared with xbmc/kodi and vlc in the past
<thilo>
where - let me put it in Kieran's words, vlc people sold their videolabs wares at the ffmpeg booth
<thilo>
you can wexpect me to answer to Devin, don't expect me to deal with the trolls
<kierank>
I wasn't going to respond but since you have misrepresented my words I will.
<kierank>
Last year's booth was an explicit FFmpeg/VideoLAN booth
<kierank>
This year the booth was marked "FFmpeg"
<kierank>
These two things are not the same
<thilo>
you said I misrepresented your words? I miss the connection of that to sharing the booth
<thilo>
your words were
<thilo>
2024-03-31 13:43:45 @kierank So apparently gpac will be selling their wares on the FFmpeg booth
<thilo>
so what was wrong about what I said above?
<kierank>
I have no further comment
<BBB>
thanks for answering thilo
<j-b>
17:07 <@jamrial> just temporarily. a full ban needs a GA vote, afaik
<j-b>
that's also my understanding
<BBB>
kieran's argument is presumably that the naming of the booth suggests that ffmpeg community is ok with gpac selling wares in their name
<BBB>
otherwise it would have been called the ffmpeg/gpac booth
<BBB>
where ffmpeg promotes ffmpeg and gpac promotes gpac
<BBB>
but here, the appearance for innocent bystanders or folks-walking-by is that ffmpeg is promoting gpac (?)
<thilo>
the reason the booth just carries our name is that gpac asked me to join after registration
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<cosminaught>
kierank: I can assure you the anonymous booth donor was not me
<j-b>
Are you guys not all busy at NAB?
<j-b>
Is NAB sooooo boring this year?
<Daemon404>
maybe that is why the booth was unmanned.
<cosminaught>
however, once an ffmpeg booth was announced I did volunteer to help, and I did spend some time at the booth in between meetings, etc.
<cosminaught>
no idea how GPAC ended up sharing a booth fwiw, although in general open source projects having some solidarity doesn't seem like a bad thing
<Daemon404>
gpacs commercial arm is on the booth
<cosminaught>
perhaps if more ffmpeg developers volunteered to help with the booth there wouldn't have been any room for gpac folks
<j-b>
Was there a call for volunteers?
<j-b>
I just remember a booth being donated, and Kieran asking questions that were not answered.
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<cosminaught>
iirc the original email from Thilo about a booth asked for volunteers and ramiro is the only one who volunteered
<j-b>
I forgot, but tbh, since I know I couldn't come to NAB for once :( I did not reply
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<Lynne>
mkver: ping about the AAC patchset
<Daemon404>
booth still unmanned apparently.
<cosminaught>
Thilo and I are grabbing a coffee, wait 5 minutes
<cosminaught>
are you around?
<Daemon404>
im in europe.
<Daemon404>
but know roughly a bazillion people at nab
<Daemon404>
so i keep getting confused messages.
<cosminaught>
well tell them to circle back in 5 if they want to talk about ffmpeg
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