jaeger changed the topic of #crux to: CRUX 3.7 | Homepage: https://crux.nu/ | Ports: https://crux.nu/portdb/ https://crux.ninja/portdb/ | Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/crux/
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<cruxbot> [opt.git/3.7]: nodejs: 19.1.0 -> 19.2.0
<cruxbot> [opt.git/3.7]: protobuf: 21.9 -> 21.10
<SiFuh> jaeger: chrcav: farkuhar: (Note: Boot managers present a menu of boot options, whereas boot loaders load a kernel. Many programs can do both tasks, although rEFIt can load a kernel on PC hardware only if it includes an EFI stub loader.)
<SiFuh> This is not SYSLINUX but it says that there is a difference between bootloaders and boot managers. So I checked a little deeper and SYSLINUX though, is a bootloader and not a boot manager. This is probably the closest I have come to an answer
<SiFuh> So it appears that SYSLINUX and other bootloaders will most likely require EFI_STUB enabled in the kernel to be able boot the kernel.
<SiFuh> So looks like you may need to modify the handbook to inform those installing SYSLINUX on an EFI system that they need CONFIG_EFI_STUB=y in the kernel
<SiFuh> farkuhar: ^
<SiFuh> chrcav: Cheers!
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<jaeger> OK, I was curious so just tested this on one of my systems. Neither syslinux nor grub *require* EFI_STUB
<jaeger> Double checking in case I messed up, though
<SiFuh> Grub doesn't require it though
<jaeger> Nope, I'm wrong and you're right. I booted the wrong kernel for my "without EFI_STUB" test. syslinux DOES require EFI_STUB. elilo and grub did not
<jaeger> Without EFI_STUB when booting from syslinux I see the "screen goes blank and computer reboots" behavior that was mentioned.
<SiFuh> Looks like CRUX linux will be the first handbook to ever mention that it is needed and why
<dbrooke> I've not really been following along but if that's the case why would you even bother to use syslinux rather than just booting direct from the motherboard EFI?
<jaeger> I'll need to make some updates to the UEFI wiki page... remove elilo, fix the syslinux section
<jaeger> dbrooke: you can create menus with it for more complicated setups or more options... but if you don't need those....
<jaeger> For example, I like to have a boot menu that shows me the kernel as well as the option to go back to UEFI setup if I missed something
<jaeger> Personal preference
<dbrooke> fair enough
<SiFuh> Maybe something like this "SYSLINUX being a boot loader and not a boot manager operates a little differently. Therefore it is required to enable CONFIG_EFI_STUB=y in the kernel to prevent a reboot cycle"
<SiFuh> Hehe
<dbrooke> I guess it also depends on how good the motherboard EFI boot menu is
<jaeger> Yes, definitely
<jaeger> Most boards I've used have been pretty forgiving but apple and HP in particular have been problematic for me
<SiFuh> I like dbrooke's idea but I prefer having a syslinux.cfg without the need to modify the UEFI. I find it is faster. But I do not use menus with syslinux.
<jaeger> Also virtual machines with q35 vs. i440fx - q35 supports more of the UEFI spec while in my tests i440fx machines required booting from a file called 'bootx64.efi' (the 'default' name)
<SiFuh> I thought, I checked, but seems that it is not so that farkuhar included efibootmgr
<SiFuh> Oh no he did, but it is limited 7.3 EFI Stub installation notes
<SiFuh> Just the perfect amount of information to be honest.
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<dbrooke> When I was running crux I built the kernel with EFI_STUB enabled and had a custom install script in /root/bin which meant that make install in the kernel tree did the right thing for it to boot directly
<SiFuh> Cool! With SYSLINUX, I just copied the kernel over and it was done. Unless I was using kernel versions then I would edit the config only. Nothing more
<jaeger> That's all you need with stub as well if you're booting the kernel directly
<SiFuh> Oh yeah, if not using version numbering
<jaeger> True, important point
<SiFuh> I will be gone until from about Saturday morning until Sunday evening. But I would like to be kept apprised of the SYSLINUX + Handbook situation
<jaeger> I'm making some edits to the UEFI wiki page now, not messing with the handbook yet
<dbrooke> Yeah, I kept the "current" kernel as a backup in case the new build failed which meant I just had 2 options in the motherboard boot menu (and actually never needed the fallback)
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<stenur> SiFuh: refind finds any kernel, even MacOS (SnowLeopard and have forgotten the other, successor of former) and windows and such, for sure. you do not need EFI_STUB to boot a kernel via refind for sure.
<SiFuh> stenur: Sorry, you are going off the path again. We are only focused on SYSLINUX.
<SiFuh> And that particular link was more so talking about refit? I could be wrong.
<SiFuh> I only posted that link because they were mentioning the difference between bootloaders and boot managers. I also mentioned SYSLINUX wasn't spoken of in that URL
<SiFuh> The second URL was the most important though
<SiFuh> stenur: I spent about two days on and off searching and reading to see if I can find out why EFI_STUB may/was/is needed. The second URL even mentioned why I found almost nothing about it. SYSLINUX hasn't much documentation
<SiFuh> I am kind of glad it is over. :-)
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<jaeger> OK, the UEFI wiki page is updated
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<SiFuh> jaeger: link?
<SiFuh> Oh that's the blue one
<SiFuh> The word 'Note' is not in capital letters and the exclamation marks are a bit in your face. All good though
<farkuhar> the H. Peter Anvin responses in SiFuh's second link don't really say why syslinux chose not to implement the "hostile" method that GRUB2 uses.
<jaeger> I don't like to overuse exclamation points but I think some of those are important info
<SiFuh> farkuhar: yes correct, but it says that it is the way
<SiFuh> When asked for a change the answer was No. Which I laughed at
<SiFuh> jaeger: reminds me of an episode of Seinfeld :-P
<SiFuh> Amazing how a particular episode from a series can modify a persons life when they were young
<farkuhar> SiFuh and chrcav's detective work finally settles the mystery of why the ISO kernel failed to load, with syslinux in UEFI mode.
<jaeger> yeah, thanks for the research there :D
<SiFuh> farkuhar: yep, and I am so glad the research he put into figuring it rather than abandoning the issue and moving to another like grub2 was discover.
<stenur> SiFuh: refind is successor for over a decade: https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/; there was really good documentation on all that stuff once i read it last
<SiFuh> I am actually chrcav did bring this issue forward, solve it and again and took the time to lead all of us in the right direction.
<SiFuh> stenur: Yes, but the point still stands :-) Bootloaders and Boot managers are different, and some Bootloaders can do more than others.
<SiFuh> Sorry, small screen. I actually meant to say it like this farkuhar "farkuhar: yep, and I am so glad the research he put into figuring it out rather than abandoning the issue and moving to another boot(*) like grub2. And I am actually glad chrcav did bring this to our attention, and solve it and again took the time to direct us towards the right direction."
<chrcav> SiFuh: Thanks for the effort in validating my observation. It was quite difficult to find any useful information on SYSLINUX and UEFI.
<jaeger> syslinux uefi documentation does leave a lot to be desired
<farkuhar> When the motherboard EFI menu provides at least as much functionality as syslinux, then you get the reaction illustrated by dbrooke. Since the kernel has to be built with EFI_STUB anyway, why not just dispense with syslinux and select a kernel from the motherboard's menu?
<SiFuh> Yup, I spent days reading, and writing, and testing different things. Nothing, not even Arch Linux was precise on this matter.
<SiFuh> farkuhar: I mentioned it before. Why are we bothering with SYSLINUX when we can just go direct. Anyways, we have multiple options in the handbook. So that is good
<jaeger> Having multiple options to solve the same problem is the unix way (tm) :D
<jaeger> (joke)
<SiFuh> Hahah
<SiFuh> I laughed because of the Window Managers being a perfect example of it. I was introducing a friend to the different DE and WMs out there
<SiFuh> jaeger: off topic, you are close to TX. Are the holidays over for now there?
<jaeger> Thanksgiving is over, yeah
<SiFuh> Cool! Ordered the new lid from TX, just waiting a tracking number
<jaeger> How long does shipping from TX to you take?
<SiFuh> Usually 2 weeks. Can last up to 3 weeks. Longest two paths is from TX to TX and the international export port to Malaysia
<SiFuh> It is super weird
<SiFuh> For example Texas to Texas can tahe 7 days then Erlanger, Kentucky can take 1 day. Then shoved on an aircraft and exited the US and nothing... for almost 7 days. I always joke about this though. How can a flight last 7 days in the air ;-)
<SiFuh> When it lands in Malaysia, it spends 1 to 5 days in customs. Then it is offloaded to the highest bidder. The courier companies seem to bid here. Then within 1 to 4 days it arrives interstate
<jaeger> Not too terrible... but interesting where it sticks, yeah
<SiFuh> I can fly from Malaysia to USA within 18 hours
<SiFuh> But yep, the 'sticky' locations are interesting. I have a wife that orders a lot of trash and I often track it for the fun of it.
<SiFuh> There is a company I hate so much not because they are shit but because they do stupid shit. Sunyou
<jaeger> I've ordered a bunch of 3d printer and diy stuff from china and singapore and it varies from 2 days (crazy) to 4 months (only one was this long) shipping time
<jaeger> Usually around 2-3 weeks
<SiFuh> Lost so many things with them. Sometimes arrive. But it gets transferred to locations you can't even imagine why. Such as China to Malaysia via Uzbekistan. Huh? Uzbekistan? That's like going to the moon via Neptune
<SiFuh> I have 4 Sunyou arrived. 4 of them arrived fine. 1 arrived after it was lost 6 months later. Then others about 8, never arrived
<jaeger> ouch. That's a pretty bad ratio
<jaeger> All of my orders from Aliexpress have arrived, at least...
<jaeger> Never bought anything from Sunyou
<SiFuh> Yeah, I always aske them if they ship with Sunyou and I will not order if they say yes. I actually, not joking asked a company which carry do they ship with and they replied 'post' and then send it Sunyou.
<SiFuh> That one actually arrived by the way
<jaeger> heh
<SiFuh> Sunyou is the shipping company like DHL and FedEX
<jaeger> figured that out a bit late but I got there, heh
<SiFuh> Sorry, my typing is really bad
<SiFuh> The other companies I dislike are UPS, USPS and FedEX
<jaeger> Those 3 cover like 95% of US shipping
<SiFuh> But UPS and USPS are not as bad, so I am fine. FedEx is very bad international
<SiFuh> Oh within US they are actually great
<jaeger> Mostly... they do screw up now and then but by volume, pretty good
<SiFuh> Smaller the package the easier it is to lose
<SiFuh> I ordered from a company in Germany and they wanted ti shit with FedEx. I argued saying not to. I want DHL. They said no choice must be FedEX. The package travelled one hop to Cologne. Lost forever.
<SiFuh> ti shit/it ship
<SiFuh> My favorite was USPS back in Thailand. I tracked everyday from California to Thailand. Out for delivery! Then cancelled because no one was home. I contacted them straight away. Next day same thing. The third day same thing. I was so angry as I was right beside the door waiting and I had more important things to do.
<jaeger> I don't trust DHL here in the US
<jaeger> Had a few bad experiences
<SiFuh> They sent me a fine and a bill. 11$ a day for warehousoe space and a bill for failed postage. I was so mad, I told them to send it back to California. I contacted the company in California as well to inform them. It ended up arriving in the end. But it was left at the local travel agent. I had to go there and pick it up myself.
<SiFuh> 11 USD a day is like a few days salary in Thailand in those days
<SiFuh> jaeger: I am laughing because my friend changed from FedEX to DHL but there is not real DHL in US. It is like a courier company carrying DHL badges and he smashed his van the first week.
<SiFuh> On the bright side, he killed the PRIUS
<SiFuh> PRIUS = Please Replace, It's Utterly Shit.
<SiFuh> <-- Coined the acronymn. Every time my boss would ask me to drive the PRIUS instead of the Falcon I would say that to him
<jaeger> I've never driven a Prius
<jaeger> Hybrid vehicles haven't really ever appealed to me, though all electric vehicles do
<jaeger> s/all/fully/
<SiFuh> Quick but not fast.
<SiFuh> We always applauded anyone who destroyed one they were driving or destroyed one they were not
<jaeger> That seems a tad extreme
<SiFuh> You've never been to Australia I guess
<jaeger> Dare I ask what Australia has to do with destroying cars being extreme?
<SiFuh> Australians are not a fan of toy cars.
<jaeger> I stand by my statement, heh... destroying a car simply because you don't like it falls under extreme in my book
<jaeger> Expensive thing to trash "just because"
<SiFuh> Heh, until you see your insurance payment history
<farkuhar> SiFuh: you wanted to be kept apprised of the Handbook updates before you left on Saturday morning. Well, I just inserted a few comments in the kernel configuration section and the SYSLINUX+UEFI section. The Appendix section on EFI stub didn't appear to need any updates.
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<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: gpg-tui: 0.9.1 -> 0.9.2
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: grafana: 9.3.0 -> 9.3.1
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: hwdata: 0.364 -> 0.365
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: kvantum: 1.0.6 -> 1.0.7
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: libbluray: 1.3.3 -> 1.3.4
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: libnewt: 0.52.22 -> 0.52.23
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: mujs: 1.3.0 -> 1.3.2
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: networkmanager: 1.40.4 -> 1.40.6
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: npm: 9.1.2 -> 9.1.3
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: p5-path-tiny: 0.142 -> 0.144
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: papirus-icon-theme: 20221101 -> 20221201
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: prometheus: 2.40.4 -> 2.40.5
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: python3-chardet: 5.0.0 -> 5.1.0
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: python3-pkginfo: 1.9.0 -> 1.9.2
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: python3-tzdata: 2022.6 -> 2022.7
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: svt-av1: 1.3.0 -> 1.4.0
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: thunderbird: 102.5.0 -> 102.5.1
<cruxbot> [contrib.git/3.7]: tofi: 0.7.0 -> 0.8.1
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