<farkuhar>
zorz: SiFuh has me and emmett1 mixed up in his mind.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: No, you vanished for awhile and it was doing the islamic holiday Hari Raya Aidilfitri.
<zorz>
yes... SiFuh shows the first symptoms of alzheimer
<SiFuh>
during*
<SiFuh>
zorz: I do not.
<zorz>
:P
<zorz>
yes running crux, with tcc is a nice idea.
<SiFuh>
Yes, running crux on a computer is a nice idea.
<farkuhar>
Anyway, the Doc Brown that inspired emmett1's nick reminds me of another 1980s movie that I'd like to rewatch: War Games. The way AI is portrayed in that movie is so refreshingly naive, in contrast to the sober discussions around AI these days.
<farkuhar>
Where is lavaball to provide the odysee.com link when you need one?
<zorz>
ulysee.com
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: You mean like Metal Mickey (1980) ?
<farkuhar>
never saw Metal Mickey. Do you recommend it?
<SiFuh>
Fuck nooo
<SiFuh>
It's a kids show from the UK. I hated it but my little sister and litter brother always watched it. Then swore blind they had never seen it before and my mother must be losing her mind.
<SiFuh>
So my mother asked me "Do you remember a show called Metal Mickey?" I said "Yuck, of course I do. Hated it." Then told her how my little brother and little sister would always watch it. My mother said "Good! I thought I was losing my mind, seems they are the ones losing their mind"
<SiFuh>
She then asks me "How about Supergran?" I said "Yeah, was on every Sunday during the day. But later on it was on in the evenings after school" She said "Well they never remember it either"
<farkuhar>
I never did get a response from kris_ in #kisslinux when I pressed him to defend the second part of his claim "openbsd utils are on another level ... if only their package manager wasn't ass".
<SiFuh>
OpenBSD package manager is superior to prt-get and pkgutils
dlcusa_ is now known as dlcusa
<farkuhar>
The comparison is irrelevant because CRUX doesn't distribute binary packages. But anyway, kris_ made the remark in the context of a discussion on cleanly-formatted code, where the suckless coding style got some strong criticism from both kris_ and midfavila.
<farkuhar>
OpenBSD's coding style earned their praises, but kris_ seemed dissatisfied with the package manager, and I never got an answer as to why.
<SiFuh>
farkuhar: How it irrelevant? OpenBSD has a source based system as well. And both CRUX and OpenBSD result in binaries.
<SiFuh>
I installed unarj today. cd /usr/ports/archivers/unarj && make && make install
<farkuhar>
SiFuh: yes, OpenBSD software can be built from ports, same as CRUX, but most users will find it easier to pkg_add the precompiled binaries. There's no such option on CRUX (apart from dedicating a computer on the local network to host a pkg-get repository).
<SiFuh>
It downloads the source tarball. It checks dependencies, then builds it (and deps if needed). The creates an archive and then installs it.
<SiFuh>
So again, how is it irrelevant?
<farkuhar>
The OpenBSD handbook has separate chapters for the Ports system and the Package system. What you're describing (cd /usr/ports/archivers/unarj && make && make install) would appear in the Ports chapter, and there the comparison to CRUX ports is relevant. But the chapter on binary packages is hardly comparable to the way most CRUX users will maintain their OS.
<SiFuh>
So? It's still pretty much similar and superior. And the fact that you don't have a binary installation repo means nothing to what we are discussing.
<farkuhar>
I'm actually not sure what kris_ was referring to (in the #kisslinux channel yesterday between 05:20 and 05:40 UTC). Maybe he meant pkg_add, pkg_delete, and related commands, or maybe he meant the `make && make install` ritual in the ports tree.
<SiFuh>
Or maybe he doesn't know OpenBSD as well as he thinks?
<farkuhar>
Ignorance could explain the silence, when somebody presses him for more details supporting his opinion.
<farkuhar>
The other participant in that discussion (midfavila) actually did try CRUX for a while, but found it "too bloated" because so much unnecessary junk was installed by default, so he migrated to KISS Linux instead. I wonder if his CRUX experience was *before* beerman added dumb_runtime_dir to core.
<zorz>
most probably does not know openbsd
<farkuhar>
Judging from the wistful tone of midfavila's report, it sounded like he tried CRUX long before the addition of dumb_runtime_dir, so there must have been some core or opt ports that merited the "bloatware" label even before beerman pushed so many novelties into core and opt.
<SiFuh>
beerman is bloatware for CRUX :-P
<SiFuh>
bloatwareman ;-)
<zorz>
bloatman
<zorz>
its bullshit to say crux is bloated.... its a source based and you build it as you want
<farkuhar>
zorz: if there's no validity to the claim that CRUX is bloated, then why was CRUX-MUSL able to remove some core ports (linux-pam, dumb_runtime_dir) before building the ISO? By definition, if something can be removed without harming the other packages, then it wasn't essential in the first place.
<zorz>
this is again what sifuh says.... core should be without pam and dumb_runtime_dir
<zorz>
to have an nice small secure core
<zorz>
what would be nice to have is in pkgadd -d to check for gpg keys... but is different story
<farkuhar>
What I find fascinating is that the various refugees from CRUX bloatware will seek a new home either in KISS Linux or CRUX-MUSL, when those two distros take completely opposite stances on the choice of Wayland versus X.
<zorz>
wayland is good.... i used to be on wayland... but all this hype about is more secure.... i dont believe it. and people connecting to ssh will always prefere x over wayland
<zorz>
xterm is xterm. althought foot is really good on wayland.
<farkuhar>
KISS users almost unanimously seem to regard X as legacy bloatware, and Wayland as the better (more minimalist) alternative. But then you have CRUX-MUSL maintainers, who don't seem to buy into the Wayland hype.
<zorz>
yes
<zorz>
wayland,,, maybe good for desktop use.... but linux is a network remote thing... i think x is better choice.
<zorz>
if wayland was that good.... openbsd would run natively on wayland. why not?
<farkuhar>
Running graphical Unix apps over a network might have been common practice in the days of thin clients and mainframes. But today, when even the most underpowered Chromebook can adequately handle the graphical apps natively? No need to cling to legacy X11 forwarding protocols in a world like that.
<zorz>
yes
<ukky>
Wayland, as an idea, falls into the same category as any new programming language: let's invent something new, because project XXX (substitute with Xorg or C) is too old and has no new features since 19XX.
<farkuhar>
I run plenty of apps remotely over SSH, but none that require X. If it cannot be done inside a terminal, then it doesn't need to be done through an SSH connection.
<zorz>
farkuhar: point is that freebsd, openbsd, netbsd have runit as an options and crux not :P
<farkuhar>
zorz: KDE users on CRUX didn't have SDDM as an option either, until somebody wrote a port for it. So if you want runit to replace sysvinit, just make yourself a port.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Not really. Because runit still needs to be added to rc.local.
<zorz>
:P
<zorz>
ukky has a port but is with busybox
<zorz>
maybe i try gnu stow package manager, symlinks
<farkuhar>
busybox, heh. The software whose codebase earned the praises of midfavila for being the cleanest C he'd ever seen.
<ukky>
zorz: busybox is used only to replace udev with mdev, which is part of busybox. I consider udev as systemd, thus, it has to go.
<farkuhar>
Whoops, that was kris_ (not midfavila) who praised the cleanliness of the busybox source code. (05:26 in yesterday's #kisslinux discussion)
<zorz>
oooo yes
<zorz>
ukky debians udev is systemd or busubox?
<zorz>
do you know?
<SiFuh>
No one knows. They only assume
<zorz>
bbl
ivandi has joined #crux-social
<SiFuh>
Be bored later?
<SiFuh>
ukky: I wonder how the moose meat got maggots when he was smoking it. Hmmmmm
<ukky>
zorz: I will check the source of Debian' udev, I have one system running Debian with runit.
<SiFuh>
ukky: Hahaha "Where are the fucking animals now? I'm hungry! I'm fucking hungry! I'd fucking hungry!"
<SiFuh>
That might be remiliascarlet in the wilderness before the winter snows kick in. Hahaha
<SiFuh>
I'd/I'm*
<SiFuh>
ukky: Ahh so he thought he was eating Hedysarum mackenzii but instead was eating Hedysarum alpinium. Hedysarum alpinium isn't toxic except if you consume the seeds.
<SiFuh>
The seeds should not be eaten raw, or in large quantity, as they contain L-canavanine, which may have led or contributed to the death of Christopher McCandless.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I wonder if he tried to eat charcoal the moment he felt like something was wrong
<SiFuh>
ukky: The bow shackles are looking awesome. Tomorrow I will put on the clear coat.
<SiFuh>
I did a fair bit of sanding around the places where the rope goes to make sure it is very smooth so the rope won't tear up the paint.
<ukky>
Rope will damage the paint. I'd find the plastic or rubber tube of appropriate size, cut it along the length and put over the shackles, maybe fixig it with zip-ties so it doesn't move.
<SiFuh>
ukky: We will see. Paint is cheap and I already expect to have to paint it in the future again. Kind of like oiling parts to keep them functional.
<SiFuh>
ukky: I know for a fact after I come back from jungle, I will need to respray parts of the roof rack anyway. Good thing I won't have to take the roof racks off of the truck this time.
<SiFuh>
zorz: Season 7 of Black Mirror will be released on Thursday the 10th
<SiFuh>
Episode one is a bit fucked. A politician and a pig.
<SiFuh>
zorz: The episode where the black man is in the room was also very memorable.
<zorz>
i will see
<ukky>
zorz: On Debian with runit: 395 root 20 0 26072 5116 4316 S 0.0 0.2 0:00.21 `- /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd
<zorz>
ukky: thx
<zorz>
crux uses evdev from gentoo
<SiFuh>
crux maintainers use beerman from bloatville ;-)
<zorz>
SiFuh: :PPp
<ukky>
zorz: eudev _is_ udev, i.e. eudev is systemd project. eudev is carefully carved out from systemd project so it does not require systemd to run, but it is still systemd.
<SiFuh>
zorz Aufgeblähtdorf
<zorz>
Use Gentoo's eudev, which is a fork of systemd-udev from which systemd has now significantly diverged.
<SiFuh>
"Aufgeblähtdorf." The word "aufgebläht" means "bloated" in German, and "Dorf" means "village."
<zorz>
SiFuh: Bloated village yes you are correct
ivandi has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.6.0]
<ukky>
zorz: if you fork a systemd's udev project it cannot become udev alternative, as it is still a systemd project, even if deviated.
ivandi has joined #crux-social
<zorz>
point taken
<SiFuh>
I might the help of dlcusa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFoGWw30g0 What style of music would you call this? It is very interesting, especially the sneaking in in the background of certain instruments for a note or two.
<SiFuh>
I might need*
<SiFuh>
I can't find anything similar.
<SiFuh>
ukky: zorz: This movie Point Break (1991) reminds me a lot of the movie The Fast and The Furious (2001)
<SiFuh>
Correction. This movie Point Break (1991) is pretty much the same as The Fast and The Furious (2001) They just boards to cars and the ex-girlfriend to a sister and copied the same story line.