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<beach>
jackdaniel: The reader macro for [ that I use for several programs to save the object graph.
<beach>
thuna`: Special handling in that the parser for the buffer needs to take it into account and handle it properly. We do that by using the same reader to parse the buffer as the one that has the reader macro.
<beach>
smlckz-: There is probably no other editor that does that, so we set out to create one.
<beach>
phae9: And, yes the editor is Second Climacs, but the plan is to make it part of a collection of modules to create an IDE.
<beach>
The main difficulty is going to be the creation of a real debugger, since it needs support from the Common Lisp implementation, and none of the free Common Lisp implementations provides this support, as we wrote in this: http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-debugging.pdf paper.
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<jackdaniel>
beach: how naive parsers handle it and how will this be different in c2? will it handle only mundane reader macros, or arbitrary ones?
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<scymtym>
the current idea is to do as much of what real compilation would entail as necessary to fully analyze the source code. this "compilation" uses a model of the package system and separate environments so that the host image is not affected
<scymtym>
this setup should allow evaluating the macro functions of custom reader macros but we only do a very minial version of that at the moment
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<jackdaniel>
sure, but how does it connect to indentation? isn't the desired indent not implicig from the expansion?
<jackdaniel>
I can see how that aids reader error highlighting
<scymtym>
and yes, there could be reader macros (or macros, in later analysis phases, for that matter) for which the approach may be infeasible. in an editor context, stopping the analysis early seems like the right thing to do
<jackdaniel>
implicit*
<scymtym>
i have probably missed the discussion about indentation. the current idea is to use the syntax trees which result from analysing the code for indentation as well but that part of the approach is not fully thought out yet
<beach>
jackdaniel: I don't think a naive parser could handle this situation at all, i.e., when a character that is a constituent by default is redefined to invoke some code to parse what follows.
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<beach>
And, yes, there will likely be situations that we can't (or wouldn't want to) handle fully, but we hope those will be way fewer than the ones that existing editors can't handle, and we hope that we will be able to handle those situations in a slightly degraded way.
<jackdaniel>
OK, you have correctly parsed the result behind the reader macro - what do you do with the result? there is no 1-1 correspondence between the text in a buffer and produced form
<beach>
Right now, we do nothing. But the idea is to submit the result to a compiler for further processing.
<jackdaniel>
what does it aid from the editor point of view?
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<beach>
jackdaniel: We can get things like showing which lexical variables refer to the same one. We can highlight code that can't be executed. Stuff like that.
<scymtym>
as i said, the story for indentation is not clear yet, but further processing the results of expansion allows error checking, recognizing definitions, bindings, references, which that are meaningful in an ide context
<jackdaniel>
I see, thanks
<beach>
jackdaniel: How is the 1-1 correspondence important?
<jackdaniel>
you've mentioned your [ macro, so I was wondering what will it do to it -- i.e highlight initargs or something
<jackdaniel>
and that would require understanding, that there is 1-1 correspondence between :foo in [:foo 42] and expanded (make-instance 'blah :foo 42)
<beach>
Sure, that would be hard in general, but we preserve source information, so if (say) a symbol inside [ ] turns out to be a lexical variable, we can show the correspondence between its definition and its uses.
<scymtym>
for the [ reader macro, the lowest bar would be that editor operations that work on the expression tree don't break down as would happen in an editor that does not understand [
<beach>
jackdaniel: But yes, one could very well imagine analyzing the resulting MAKE-INSTANCE call to determine which symbols are keyword arguments, and highlight them appropriately.
<jackdaniel>
that does not make sense in general sense, because there is no 1-to-1 correspondence between the passed arg and the expansion. i.e you may expand to (progn (push ,key *somwhere) (make-instance 'foo ,key ,val)) and the key from {:key 13} does not have any definitive meaning; that said I see the purpose, so it is about analyzing defined variables and such
<beach>
I already said that it would not be possible in general. What we are aiming for is something substantially better than what current editors can do.
<scymtym>
something else that we probably cannot support well is a completely custom syntax packaged as a reader macro like (j for java) #jclass Foo { public int main() {}; };. if the custom parser doesn't used cl:read, the editor won't have source information for the interior of the custom syntax
<beach>
But in many cases, we can track what happens to symbols that appear in the buffer and the role they end up having in the resulting code. Then we can give appropriate feedback to the user.
<scymtym>
i don't think we can do better than a best-effort approach. more complete solutions like those in racket seem to require restrictions on the syntax/macro system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHxZ3mT9BSo has some interesting comments
<ixelp>
Michael Ballantyne: A Multi Language Oriented Macro System - YouTube
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<beach>
As long as we do much better than Emacs+SLIME, I think that's already worth the effort.
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<jackdaniel>
given that slime already can do something like conditional highlighting (i.e it greys out #+foo depending on actual features), wouldn't it be feasible to plug that parser into slime?
<beach>
By "that parser", do you mean the one that uses Eclector? If so, it would have to execute on the Common Lisp side of things. And, yes, that would be possible, but you would then have to define aspects of the wire protocol to handle that.
<beach>
... and it would be slower (not sure how much) to transmit the information between SLIME and the Common Lisp implementation.
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<beach>
We think it might be less work to use CLIM functionalities like presentations in order to provide feedback to the user.
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<jackdaniel>
I'm sure some people, now matter how good climacs 2 is, will stick with emacs; perhaps some of them will want to improve swank to take advantage of the parser, or to incorporate it in another LSP implementation
<jackdaniel>
that's why I've been wondering about this
<beach>
I encourage those people to do that.
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<beach>
I have long ago given up on trying to convince people to use something I create or even something better that someone else created. All I can do is show the feasibility, and then let people decide for themselves.
<jackdaniel>
I have a different impression, but that aside, is there an estimate when the second climacs will be available for testing as something beta-ready?
<beach>
No.
<jackdaniel>
I see, thanks
<beach>
Perhaps it would have been better if I hadn't brought this up at all, but I wanted to let phae9 know that we are working on a similar problem.
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<jackdaniel>
this is without the repaint queue which will make things much faster
<jackdaniel>
it is possible to pass a McCLIM stream to arbitrary thread, and the appropriate thread-safe context will be lazily initialized on first use
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<jackdaniel>
lines may be written with format and completed at a different pace, and the line is added when the user calls finish-output or adds a new line
<pranav>
jackdaniel: Is this using the thread local storage implementation from your blog post?
<jackdaniel>
yes; current works on McCLIM prompted my recent blog posts
<jackdaniel>
the stream's class is a standard-class so anyone can subclass, but it contains in a slot a tls-record-context instance which has some slots with a tls storage
<pranav>
Great, really neat interface.
<jackdaniel>
thanks!
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<NotThatRPG>
Anyone know if there's some more detailed docs about SB-BSD-SOCKETS anywhere? I'm finding it hard to guess what a lot of these functions return...
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<yacin>
is there a library that provides a PEEK-BYTE (like PEEK-CHAR) for reading from a file with :ELEMENT-TYPE '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)? didn't find anything googling around for one
<yacin>
ah flexi-streams appears to have it
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<shawnw>
There's also no standard unread-byte.
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<shawnw>
One of the many little oversights in the standard that will never be addressed.
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<zwr>
some fuctions like map should have been generic, too. would be nice to implement map for my own data structures
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<shawnw>
The whole sequence concept should have used CLOS and generic methods so you could create your own. There's things like Rhode's extensible sequences specification, but not all common lisps support it (Looking at you, clozure)
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<aeth>
the big sequence oversight is that specialized arrays are seen strictly for optimization and as a low-level concept, losing type information and type safety
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<aeth>
so (unsigned-byte 8) is probably supported (but only bit is required, not octets!) as well as a bunch of other, somewhat arbitrary sizes that it rounds to on an implementation-specific basis
<aeth>
But at the language level, most things just become T arrays even if you give them an :element-type and this is probably 90% of why you'd want a custom vector/array type in the first place.
<aeth>
And even that isn't going to preserve the type information of the contents for the implementation to be able to make type inference on it.
<aeth>
Lists are a bit different. You may want lazy, immutable, and/or homogeneously typed ones. But, afaik, most extensible sequence code assumes that the extended sequences are vector-like (O(1) random access) rather than list-like, so that's not very suitable, either.
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