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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<bitspook[m]>
Good morning!
<holycow>
clog 1.0 just got released
<holycow>
neat
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<hayley>
Today I spent most of my waking hours designing a 3d virtual space, where students could collaborate on graphical programs written in Common Lisp, for the pathetic thing that the university calls a "hackathon".
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<hayley>
I did not get to present it in my team, despite that we agreed that it fit in the narrative, and we literally had a script that was ready half an hour ago. I'm incredibly pissed off by this decision, but it means I get to publish it myself, I guess.
<VincentVega>
hayley: what does your program do again
<hayley>
VincentVega: You can clone and edit programs which generate some sort of graphical animation, and the results are rendered in Minecraft.
<lisp123w>
hayley: that sounds super cool though
<hayley>
The idea was that having a virtual 3d space would reduce the feel of isolation with online classes.
<lisp123w>
maybe its best you got to keep it to yourself
<hayley>
If I was only going to write it for myself, I wouldn't have worked on it for about 7 hours straight.
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<VincentVega>
hayley: your crowd was just too hip for minecraft, ignore them
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<hayley>
No, there were projects involving Minecraft. But, like many things I've complained about^W^Wcritiqued before, they merely imitate physical objects, and one straight up just was a model of a real classroom.
<Nilby>
sometimes when you think you've come in last in a hackaton, you're actually way beyond everyone in true achievement
<hayley>
A physical metaphor helps with familiarity, but limiting oneself to that is usually a waste of a good computer.
<lisp123w>
hayley: time to make it a startup ;)
<hayley>
Look, you don't have to convince me that it was a good idea, I had to write up why it was a good idea for the pitch.
<lisp123w>
Fair point
* hayley
decides to write a README and shuts up about it.
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<Jing>
Is it caused by Clang? I installed the latest version of Clang with Macports and changed $PATH, but it still seems to use the one from /usr/bin/clang...
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<CodeBitCookie[m]>
Hello everyone. Are there any alternatives to ceramic?
<CodeBitCookie[m]>
I mean, lucerne, since it's not available on quicklisp anymore
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<hayley>
It's actually quite fun to use. I watched the double pendulum example some more, and wondered if the smaller pendulum on the end was orbiting the larger pendulum (a better analogy for the connection would be a ball joint). So I just modified the code to draw a trail of the position of the smaller pendulum relative to the larger.
<hayley>
So I better make a demo video soon, before I forget.
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<phoe>
Jing: maybe you need to change the CC environment variable
<phoe>
maybe this is where the old clang is still called from
<phoe>
otherwise it seems that line 2 is the source of the error
<Jing>
I did something like "export PATH="/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:$PATH"" in .zshrc
<Jing>
The same remains
<Jing>
phoe, yes, there's something wrong with clang in my machine: "clang: The build tool has reset ENV; --env=std required." I installed it from Apple Xcode Command Line Tools
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<jackdaniel>
if I had a penny for each build issue I saw explicitly caused by apple I'd be able to buy a basket of apples
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<didi>
More of a curiosity: can one dynamically bind an object slot?
<_death>
do you mean something like LETF? there's also contextl, with which you could have layered accessors I guess
<didi>
_death: Indeed. One could use `unwind-protect' to re-setf the original slot value.
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<_death>
it's not exactly the same when there are multiple threads involved
<mfiano>
_death: I could have used a reference to this for my WFC backtracker maybe
<_death>
maybe.. I've not made practical use of it so far
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<Guest74>
seems interesting.
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<mfiano>
If I wanted to make a subset of CL with the same semantics, just with different operator symbols, would it be better to define symbol macros and export those new symbols, or a regular macro, or maybe setting the fdefinition or macro-function?
<Bike>
symbol macros aren't expanded in operator position
<mfiano>
Ah good point
<Bike>
you probably want macros
<Bike>
special operators don't have identities like macros and functions can do, so there's nothing you can set to make a symbol name a special operator
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<jcowan>
So there is no way for a symbol to be recognized in both operator and operand position?
<White_Flame>
hmm, there's also no facility to import a symbol under a new name, right?
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<Bike>
there's nothing to make a symbol an alias of another symbol in every possible sense
<Guest74>
i've often wanted an import-as
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<jmercouris>
Guest74: trivial nicknames
<jmercouris>
Alright so I have a hashtable
<jmercouris>
and I want to know when the hash table is modified
<jmercouris>
so that I can do some operation
<jmercouris>
the only thing I can think of now is wrapping the hash table in some other object
<jmercouris>
like (defclass watching-hash-table () ...)
<jmercouris>
and then making methods like setf, remhash for it etc
<jmercouris>
is there a better way?
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<mfiano>
Not really.
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<jmercouris>
I was afraid so
<White_Flame>
you could trample (or copy) the built-in hashtable implementation, and make a new internal hook function :shrug:
<jmercouris>
that seems like a bad idea
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<Guest74>
or put an :after method on setf
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<Catie>
Can setf be specialized? I thought it was a macro
<Bike>
it is a macro. you cannot "put methods on" setf. you can define your own setf expansions.
<Bike>
in that direction what you could do is forget the custom object and keep passing a hash table around, but only access it through my-gethash or whatever, which runs hooks.
<pve>
Guest74: How would import-as work? Do you mean that every occurrence of symbol FOO "becomes" symbol BAR?
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<Guest74>
something like (:import-as (cl:* multiply))
<Catie>
That sounds like symbol-macrolet, but scoped differently
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<random-nick>
how would that work? would it make a new symbol in your package which would be a proxy of the imported symbol or would FIND-SYMBOL consult a table of translations in order to translate that symbol at read-time?
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<Guest74>
No idea. I just want it. I don't like :USEing packages and I hate things like split-sequence:split-sequence.
<pve>
Guest74: do you use package-local-nicknames?
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<jmercouris>
pve: that's what I suggested above
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<jmercouris>
we use nicknames in our source, for example "alex" for "alexandria"
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<mfiano>
Or "a", or a unicode "zero-width space" to really confuse people with keyword symbols.
<jmercouris>
yes, I think we should switch to zero-width spaces
<jmercouris>
and we should have our own reader that only considers Greek question marks
<mfiano>
have each PLN be different numbers of ZWS's. And Also let bindings all having the same suffix symbol and prefixed with increasing levels of ZWS prefixes.
<mfiano>
CL is too easy to obfuscate
<jmercouris>
sure, it comes effortlessly for C though
<jmercouris>
it happens on accident all the time for C code, just consider = and ==
<jmercouris>
what a joke
<jmercouris>
I would never confuse eq and setf
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<jackdaniel>
most people would never confuse = and ==
<Guest74>
that might not be a good example. maybe something like trivial-shell:trivial-shell to something like a collection of trivial things and getting trivial:shell
<Guest74>
bike: so about setf, I guess :after methods only work on things like class accessors because they're implemented as generic functions?
<servytor>
Guest74: I would be really surprised if that was true, in elisp you can give any function advice, right?
<mfiano>
You can only define auxilliary methods on generic functions. Class accessors are a subset of them.
<Catie>
It was used in older Lisps as well, Interlisp for example
<Guest74>
I wouldn't know, i don't know elisp.
<Catie>
It's non-standard for Common Lisp implementations, but I know CCL provides it in some capacity
<Bike>
Guest74: if F is a function with no setf expander, (setf (f ...) value) expands into (funcall #'(setf f) value ...). (setf f) is a normal function so it can have methods defined on it if it's generic, etc. setf itself doesn't need to know that, it's just a macro.
<Bike>
i've confused = and == :'(
<mfiano>
I confuse precedence more than anything when reading Algol-derivatives. And then some have nonsense like pre/post inc/dec
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<Guest74>
ah thanks, I probably shouldn't have assumed it was available for everything. I've only used it with accessors.
<Catie>
That's probably my biggest complaint about Common Lisp is that more functions aren't generic
<hayley>
jackdaniel: I do it all the time somehow.
<Catie>
It's a surmountable problem, of course
<Guest74>
i keep finding out convenience usually comes at a steep price.
<mfiano>
Catie: It's something I've been thinking of fixing for some time, because I'm not satisfied with existing attempts (there are a couple that I can't recall the names of).
<Alfr>
Guest74, also standard method combination apply to standard-generic-function (not all generic-functions).
<Catie>
mfiano: The one I'm familiar with is CL21
<mfiano>
I am not so interested in performance, besides I can fall back to regular CL if I need it.
<mfiano>
Catie: Oh that is one, and I just remembered generic-cl is the other
<Catie>
I'm always caught between wanting the convenience of using one of those libraries and using the well-known-but-slightly-less-convenient standard Common Lisp
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<mfiano>
Also I Tox'd you, but didn't realize you are only here.
<mfiano>
So ignore it if it shows up later :)
<Catie>
mfiano: sorry, we're having bonkers weather here, and I think there's some sort of network or power problem with my apartment, so I can't SSH in
<mfiano>
I hear you on the "caught between".
<mfiano>
Since CL is optimized for small teams (of usually 1), I don't mind so much if it helps my productivity and maintainability.
<Guest74>
Do you not find it makes the source more opaque, as in you can't really tell what is being operated on?
<mfiano>
Not at all. Generic functions are for establishing clear protocols that all methods must conform to.
<Catie>
Guest74: no more so than any other dynamically-dispatched code. Which is to say yes definitely, but that's part of the idea of it
<Guest74>
i say this meanwhile writing a whole bunch of generic protocols.
<Guest74>
I guess i have a difference preference for using a library and writing a library.
<Guest74>
s/difference/different/
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<mfiano>
Most other languages that have generic functions don't enforce this lambda list conformance. Raku, Guile Scheme, Julia, Clojure, etc all allow changing the protocol for each implementation, which makes zero sense to me.
<Catie>
My main worry with CL21 is that it uses symbols from the CL package, so it might be extra misleading to someone reading my code. But that's less a problem if I don't USE-PACKAGE? So maybe I'm just making a big deal out of nothing
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<Catie>
mfiano: I'm not gonna lie, I've occasionally wanted that sort of functionality in Common Lisp
<Guest74>
I think my brain can deal with almost anything as long as it's prefixed by the package.
<mfiano>
I did too, at one point, and I have no good reason as to why.
<Catie>
Guest74: Yeah, I think you're right. I should re-evaluate my stance then!
<mfiano>
To me, the confusion starts when the protocol is changing at will for the implementation.
<mfiano>
Maybe I'm alone here. I think good protocol design is paramount though.
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<Catie>
No, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. Allowing incongruent lambda-lists would be convenient in some cases, but makes the whole more confusing
<Guest74>
I have used different keys, and keep questioning my decisions to do so.
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<hayley>
My main problem with CL21 is that they deem ROOM useless and removed it, which makes me seriously question what they think people would do with the language.
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<Catie>
Oh bonkers
<hayley>
If CL21 is supposed to be batch compiled, or removing image introspection features makes it "better" somehow, then I want nothing to do with it.
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<Guest74>
Do you know if it's actually used for any projects?
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<Catie>
I don't see anything in any of the quicklisp systems I've got installed. That's not necessarily a good measure, but it's what I've got at the moment
<Shinmera>
I'm sure it is. The question is more if it's used for any projects that are used elsewhere or used by anyone but the creator.
<Lycurgus>
having badmouthed roswell i feel compelled to say something constructive
<Lycurgus>
setting an environment its man page seemed say would set an environment didn
<Lycurgus>
and that's the general problem it's not a nvm or virtual env or whatever
<mfiano>
Hi Shinmera, congrats on all the marketing opportunities and code progress as of late.
<Shinmera>
Thanks!
<Shinmera>
Though not sure about marketing opportunities?
<mfiano>
Well you are giving talks live and on podcasts etc from what I gathered
<Shinmera>
Ah. I guess, though those don't really do anything marketing wise. That's networking.
<Lycurgus>
*setting an environment variable (assuming that's what the typography implied)
<mfiano>
Seems Kandria and thus CL is reaching far
<mfiano>
Ok, yeah better term then.
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<Shinmera>
So far all of these opportunities are thanks to the swiss arts council, who, as far as I know, don't even know about Lisp at all, :)
<mfiano>
Well hopefully they know what HTML is /s
<Shinmera>
Back to a tangent that's more Lispy though, I made a simple fix and Kandria now runs at ~700 FPS on my workstation. This is with practically no regard for removing CLOS or anything like that, so dispatch is all over the place.
<Catie>
That's some pretty intense performance
<mfiano>
I don't know what it was before, and still, ms/f is better for relative comparisons
<Shinmera>
Prior to that it was like 100 or so? It was a really dumb fix where apparently retrieving framebuffer size from GLFW on Linux is super slow, so I just cached that.
<Shinmera>
On my work-workstation it went from 20 to 300.
<Shinmera>
Anyhoo
<mfiano>
Nice!
<Shinmera>
My point isn't that what I'm doing is super performant or whatever, just that even with so far paying barely attention to CLOS, you can still make a game that runs just fine.
<Catie>
That's incredibly heartening to know
<Shinmera>
Meaning CLOS is used aaaaall over.
<mfiano>
I completely agree. I took a step back and wrote gfxmath recently, as you probably saw
<Shinmera>
I did not see, I haven't had time to pay attention to much of anything in the Lisp world
<mfiano>
:D
<Shinmera>
Interesting
<mfiano>
tldr; a generic function math library to replace my super fast, 20kloc, impossible to maintain library because i stopped caring about ultimate performance
<Shinmera>
I was working on a new version of 3d-v/m over a year ago that would support int/uint/float/double versions of each type, with specialised functions to work on all of them, and with sbcl type inference aids and all.
<Shinmera>
I did not complete it though.
<Shinmera>
Heh!
<Shinmera>
I feel similarly about 3d-matrices. That code is uuuuugly
<mfiano>
origin is a lot of DRY violations as it uses packages for type/dimensions, and very hard to macroify the commonalities.
<mfiano>
but it's fast, if anyone cares about that. i care about productivity and extensibility more than anything
<Shinmera>
Yea
<Shinmera>
In other news still, I was really looking forward to attending ELS next year and possibly also writing a paper for it, but it looks like that might not be possible. GDC is /on the same days/ and I would also really like to attend that.
<mfiano>
Would you be talking at GDC?
<Shinmera>
So far I'm leaving the decision on whether we'll get sponsored to attend GDC or not.
<Shinmera>
mfiano: no, talk submission was in september and I didn't have anything to submit at that time.
<mfiano>
I think you would get more out of GDC with your current focus.
<Shinmera>
Yeah, I know, but I'm really burning to see friends and colleagues again at ELS.
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<hayley>
Really specific survey question: has anyone used cons cells as keys for an EQ hash table?
<Catie>
I have not
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<Shinmera>
hayley: maybe in the sense of a cache table to check for traversal or something.
<hayley>
Ah yeah, that's a good use.
<mfiano>
I have once or twice, but I can't remember for what.
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<yitzi>
ditto here. Don't remember what is was for.
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<Guest74>
huh, I've used cons cells in a hash for coordinates in some AOC stuff.
<hayley>
With the EQ test function, i.e. for pointer equality?
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<hayley>
So have I, but only for structural equality.
<mfiano>
I mean, I doubt it buys you much in most applications, and the downside is you have to ensure immutability (unless you want different structures to hash to the original object structure)
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<Guest74>
hayley: actually I'm not sure, I just saw the code in my visualization stuff that destructures the key.
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<Guest74>
It was probably for easily finding neighbours or being able easily visualize sparse coordinates in some unknown space.
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<Guest74>
I then switched to complex numbers as keys for unremembered reasons.
<White_Flame>
nothing really wrong with a :test #'equal or equalp composite key either
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