<etimmons>
shka: happy to help! (Sorry, got pulled away for family stuff earlier)
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<Guest74>
lisp123: you might be interested in cl:dribble
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<pillton>
For those that were following the layering discussion yesterday, a recent patch to stealth-mixin added the function, stealth-mixin:add-mixin, which adds a class to another class' superclass list. This is one way to define a "layer" and add it to an existing class.
<pillton>
mfiano: Thanks. That thesis is referenced in the Software Design for Flexibility book. I had already downloaded it to read.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<shka>
good morning
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<beach>
Hello shka.
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<rotateq>
new quote for the hall of fame "C# is the most expanded language there is"
<hayley>
There's a hall of fame?
<rotateq>
I just collect them now.
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<rotateq>
but ok, the guy comes mostly from industry (Siemens)
<rotateq>
has some other good opinions and views on things
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<beach>
What does "expanded" mean in this context? Verbose?
<rotateq>
beach: in terms of libraries and what it can do out of itself
<beach>
As I recall, the C# standard is very old.
<rotateq>
ah so it has a real standard?
<beach>
It had an early one, I believe.
<rotateq>
hm okay
<beach>
Otherwise, it is not a language at all in my opinion. It is a programming system.
<rotateq>
yes
<rotateq>
madness comes in many forms
<rotateq>
but ok, Microsoft catched some of the Haskell GHC people for the research group in Cambridge to also work on F# and LINQ
<rotateq>
I was confused when the mentioned guy (who is some years older) told, that he programmed macros in Fortran in the past. But then I asked him and he said: no where we did that they built those preprocessor things on their own. i bet it just was text replacement like in C
<beach>
That's what most people think when they here "macro", and which is why those people are often not impressed when we claim that the ability to write macros in Common Lisp is an essential feature of the language.
<rotateq>
or they just associate MS Word macros
<rotateq>
yes I will hold me back saying that, will bring nothing
<Nilby>
The Fortran pre-processors were quite complicated, almost being a separatelanguage.
<shka>
oh, interesting
<rotateq>
so they also can't interact with each other
<rotateq>
or better "understand"
<Nilby>
The fortran pre-processors sort of operated like the original C++ "cfront".
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<pjb>
you mean f2c
<shka>
perhaps macros did not have such bad name as today
<rotateq>
beach: I often think of the allegory of the cave from Platon for those situations.
<beach>
I can see that.
<rotateq>
or Occam's razor, asking "What is more probable, that you know 'everything' or that there is more to things you cover as trivial or not possible?"
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<jackdaniel>
and eye opening - people are not fools, they often operate under different ontologies
<rotateq>
right, I didn't want to say that :) thx
<rotateq>
haha it's with one of the famous Sheldon Cooper quotes
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<servytor>
I am trying to decide between common lisp and haskell for a project
<rotateq>
and you know both well?
<servytor>
rotateq: not at all. I have some experience with common lisp, but none with haskell.
<servytor>
what goes against haskell is that the haskell language server is just too unstable for me (have to restart it numerous times)
<servytor>
and I mean I am an idiot writing fizzbuzz and the hls is giving me trouble
<rotateq>
i have trouble here cause someone said 0 is a positive number
<beach>
servytor: If you are looking for advice here, the recommendation might be a bit biased.
<rotateq>
servytor: and maybe would be good to know what kind of project :)
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<servytor>
it would be a numerical project, with gigs of data
<servytor>
I know I should be using something like python or r, but I thought I would check out other languages anyway
<servytor>
I've heard that haskell has a lot of trouble with numerical performance (just parsing large csv's) because of the constant boxing/unboxing (? no clue if I said that correctly)
<Alfr>
rotateq, usually positive are those larger than 0, and positive numbers packaged with zero are usually called non-negative.
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<Alfr>
s/positive/positive numbers/
<servytor>
I guess my main question is: do you lose confidence in common lisp when going past 10klocs or so? I mean do you get lost and forget what a function returns often?
<servytor>
I am a very forgetful person
<rotateq>
Alfr: right!
<rotateq>
servytor: you can compile with the llvm backend
<rotateq>
Alfr: there is one simple exercise in TAoCP chapter 1 at the beginning: "Which is the smallest positive number?"
<Alfr>
servytor, maybe choose meaningful/descriptive names for your functions?
<semz>
That exercise is a classic intro to ill-defined questions in my experience
<Alfr>
rotateq, I don't know TAoCP, but in Q and R there is no such number; for integers that should be 1.
<rotateq>
if know how to do things with GHC it can get really efficient, also cause of lazy evaluation
<rotateq>
Alfr: right, it is sort of an early rare trap question :)
<Alfr>
rotateq, or maybe least-positive-long-float? :p
<rotateq>
Knuth writes in answers to the exercises there is none, take r then r/2 is smaller and stays positive
<rotateq>
haha okay, if taking things from the quantized point of view :P
<rotateq>
okay I just imagine the industry thinks or wants 0 to be positive
<rotateq>
so also when they have made 0 value creation "everything still positive"
<semz>
servytor: 10000 lines of Lisp is quite a lot of code, moreso than in other languages. It's definitely over the threshold where I would start splitting the code up into smaller modules.
<semz>
And then the answer depends on how well these modules are designed.
<servytor>
because I am dealing with things that have so many different states... and writing the state transition code is okay in lisp, but nothing helps to make sure you got all the cases
<rotateq>
servytor: oh this wickstrØm is capable, has written this komposition screen cast editor and wrote about property testing such applications
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<rotateq>
hm I think you can use CLOS for that in an elegant way
<rotateq>
like with design by contracts
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<_death>
servytor: documenting things a bit helps
<rotateq>
oh boy it goes on with such old industry view points "so never give source code, people who change it are the most bad."
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<jcowan>
The Ratfor preprocessor didn't know much Fortran; you could stiil get errors from the underlying Fortran compiler. EFL had a full parser for Fortran + extensions. F likewise has a full parser, but it is for a subset of Fortran (basically eliminating all the old stinky features).
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<Josh_2>
'Ello
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<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
<Josh_2>
Hey :wave:
<Josh_2>
_death: You here?
<Josh_2>
_death: I think Ironclads crc algorithm is crc32b and I need 32a (maybe)
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<Josh_2>
well idk
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<Josh_2>
Well I tried crc32 and that didn't work either. Why is this stuff so annoying :(
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<_death>
are the digests different for the same data?
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<Josh_2>
wdym?
<_death>
I assume you have something that works in notlisp, and something that doesn't in lisp, so that you can compare the intermediate values and find out where the differences are
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<_death>
so for example if you have crc32("hello") => "12345678" and (crc32 "hello") => "3610a686" you know that's an issue
<Josh_2>
Okay yes I have that
<Josh_2>
I found some example code someone wrote to verify in php and they included their post request. Seems they are not using a hex string from the crc32 but a decimal value
<_death>
does that mean you figured it out
<Josh_2>
"and expressed as a base 10, unsigned integer." no it does not
<Josh_2>
I have raised an issue on cl-tls asking if they can give me perms to ask Xach or if they will ask to get cl-tls added to ql
<Josh_2>
It would be nice if there was a single library that contained everything related to encryption :(
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<_death>
and then sometimes people wish that ironclad should be split into multiple parts ;)
<Josh_2>
pfft
<_death>
I think they're actually in the process of splitting into multiple systems?
<Josh_2>
I've seen the issue wanting it to be modular, but that would just mean you can only ql the things you need
<Josh_2>
this wouldn't stop there being something like an ironclad/tls or ironclad/olm package all within the ironclad library
<Josh_2>
ironclad/utils etc
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<_death>
right.. but perhaps it'd need more than single maintainer then
<Josh_2>
Yes very true
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<Guest74>
anybody have any examples of using usocket with unsigned-byte 8 streams? I don't seem to be sending anything, no payload according to wireshark.
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<Josh_2>
You should use force-output
<Josh_2>
maybe terpri will do it
<Josh_2>
I'd use force-output
<Guest74>
huh, that's what I tried the first time and it kept closing the socket.
<Guest74>
seems to work now. Probably all the hoops I had to jump through to actually get sane to work on localhost.
<Guest74>
I swear following 5 different howtos is not user friendly.
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<Guest74>
woo, finally seem to be communicating with the scanner. Time for a break for today. If anybody has a sane shared scanner that wants to try the code let me know. I'll probably post it for review anyways.
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<edgar-rft>
There had been questions before about the SANE protocol that is used for image scanners.
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<Josh_2>
ah I see
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<White_Flame>
Does anybody know the history/etymology of the term "macro" as used in programming languages?
<White_Flame>
as in the scrollback, some mentions of the difference between "text expander" as most people understand it, and "source code transform" which only a few languages really have
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<Bike>
I think that it derives from macro instructions in assemblers, which were so called because they were "big" compared to normal ones. Here's a 1960 article the ACM doesn't let me access https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/367177.367223
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<Bike>
referencing some 1959 articles also using the term "macro" which i also cannot access
<Nilby>
Yes, I was thinking "macro" assemblers are where I first heard that usage.
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<White_Flame>
ah, makes sense I guess
<Nilby>
Probably the word "macro" just sounds smarter and more specific than "big", and "composite" or something is too many letters and syllables.
<White_Flame>
so yeah, it does naturally feed into an expansion of sorts, but most expanders have been pretty dumb across programming language history
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<Josh_2>
I need to send updates to a webpage when something is added to my backend, this change doesn't happen very often
<Josh_2>
Idk if I should use a websocket, seems like a lot of overhead for infrequent updates. Although I could use the same websocket for all served pages
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<asarch>
How could convert '("pizza" "beer" "tacos") into "(?, ?, ?)"
<Guest7427>
i thought x11 documentation was bad, this sane stuff is frustrating. Is there some unknown to me meaning of pointer in regards to a network stream?