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<jmercouris>
I am having a classic problem with a macro
<jmercouris>
and I can't remember what the solution
<jmercouris>
consider the following (defmacro tomato (x) (if (eq ,x 5) (print "1") (print 2"))
<jmercouris>
obviously I don't want it to emit (if (eq 3 5) (print "1") (print "2")))
<jmercouris>
I want it to emit either (print "1") or (print "2")
<jmercouris>
and I can't remember
<jmercouris>
also yes, I know I wrote the macro wrong
<ahlk>
jmercouris: You want to evaluate the if in the macro then only quote the prints that you return, e.g. (defmacro tomato (x) (if (eq x 5) `(print "1") `(print "2")))
<jmercouris>
right ahlk
<jmercouris>
here is the little pickle of the tomato though
<jmercouris>
sure, there is some code duplication, I could have used a LET or something, but whatever, it's fine
<jmercouris>
I use the , to emit a single form, and then do the original suggestion
<jmercouris>
shit, maybe I am a double backtick programmer
<jmercouris>
where is Fare when you need him
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<jeosol>
jmercouris: Agree with the comment about Fare
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<jeosol>
btw, how is your Nyxt project going?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<ahc>
hi beach
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<beach>
ahc: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<Qwnavery>
last I've seen, Fare's caught the crypto bug.
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<jeosol>
Qwnavery: yeah, I had a chat with him, he is into blockchain and related technology now
<jeosol>
beach: good morning
<beach>
I see the USB specification is a 650 page PDF document. Implementing that specification in Common Lisp would be an interesting project for someone. Not as complicated as a Common Lisp system, but not trivial either.
<hayley>
Thinking about CLOSOS already?
<hayley>
I think Mezzano has some parts of the USB specification implemented...
<beach>
Wow, froggey's productivity is impressive.
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<hayley>
The files are attributed to Philip Mueller (fittestbits), but still true.
<beach>
Ah, OK.
<beach>
Stuff like that should be extracted to separate libraries when possible.
<hayley>
I imagine it's very non-trivial to come up with a portable interface for such drivers, so a separate library might or might not be too useful.
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<beach>
Maybe so.
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<jmercouris>
jeosol: it is going well, the work is of course infinite in nature... an unfinishable project
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<jeosol>
jmercouris: I see, always things to add and improve. Congratulations on the work so far. I see the post about the releases
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<froggey>
beach: yes, the USB stack was written by fittestbits, not me
<froggey>
I'm not quite that productive
<beach>
I see. I am still impressed, though.
<beach>
froggey: So how hard would it be to turn this "module" into a library, obviously requiring a certain amount of configuration depending on the Common Lisp implementation and such.
<froggey>
I'll get back to you, bit busy today
<beach>
Sure. No rush.
<beach>
I am not planning to use it any time soon.
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<froggey>
Most drivers need three things: A way to allocate and access physical memory, a way to receive IRQs, and on x86 access to IO ports
<froggey>
So that at minimum
<froggey>
The USB stack also uses multiple threads, along with mutexes, condition variables, etc
<froggey>
Timers too
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<cage>
edgar-rft: thanks! I was not able to find anything on internet, unfortunately :(
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<lisp123>
good afternoon
<lisp123>
how's everybody doing
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<cage>
fine, thanks!
* edgar-rft
does it exactly like this
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<beach>
froggey: It sounds like those things could be made configurable without too much work.
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<Guest74>
any stumpwm connoisseurs here who knows how stumpwm deals with dnd windows set to type normal and not dnd? my wm keeps managing them.
<hexology>
keywords are interned right? that means it's safe to use EQ to compare them?
<Bike>
eq is fine, yes
<hexology>
thanks
<copec>
What about safewords?
<Guest74>
anybody actively using cl-irc? I see it barfing on things like listing channels on libera and wondering which side is non-conforming.
<Guest74>
or is anybody even seeing these messages?
<hexology>
i see your messages, but the answer might be "idk" from most people here. i am not using cl-irc although i have looked into it
<hexology>
same with stumpwm, i've poked at it but never really set it up
<hexology>
maybe there's a stumpwm users group somewhere
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<Guest74>
ok, just checking. Not familiar with these web clients and having trouble getting cl-irc to work again.
<beach>
I wish someone would write a good CLIM-based (or McCLIM-based) IRC client.
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<Guest74>
I'd suggest having a working backend that could be used for any frontend would be a good place to start.
<beach>
Definitely.
<Guest74>
whcih I'm hoping somebody else will do so I can focus on my frontend. Doesn't the existing clim irc client use cl-irc?
<beach>
You mean beirc? I don't know.
<Guest74>
that's the name. cliki says it does. I'm guessing nobody uses it or they would have noticed where it's not behaving properly.
<Guest74>
or they have an updated repo to deal with it, which I'm hoping is the case.
<etimmons>
Guest74: I'm pretty sure minion uses cl-irc. ehuelsmann is the one that got it connected to Libera, but I doubt that listing channels is something that minion needs. You can pop over to #common-lisp.net and ask him there.
<Guest74>
thanks, that sounds promising.
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<Guest74>
on an unrelated note, i have a question about api design.
<Guest74>
I've got a surface protocol for getting surfaces to draw on, x11 windows, framebuffer regions, rasters, etc... and have kind of stuck in things that maybe don't belong there.
<Guest74>
like resizing or moving, which doesn't seem to really pertain to memory regions. Wondering if I should separate that out into a canvas protocol.
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<Guest74>
but it seems like would add another layer that would still need to be surface specific. Not seeing how to make it so that something like the drawing protocol can specialize on surface type unless canvases are all separate.
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<hexology>
beach: i have thought about doing some kind of lisp irc client. i have other projects going on so i figured i would wait for ircv3 to stabilize
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<beach>
Sounds like a good plan.
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<hexology>
a matrix client library might be a good idea too, but apparently it's a complicated and under-documented protocol, and you'd need to also writ bindings to their olm crypto library
<Guest74>
hexology: are you thinking of writing a completely new library? As far as I see v3 is just extensions building ontop of everything else and wouldn't prevent starting anything.
<hexology>
i would probably want to just contribute the changes back to cl-irc
<beach>
hexology: I think loke[m] is working on that.
<hexology>
but mostly i need an excuse to postpone starting something big :)
<hexology>
too many other things happening
<beach>
What's the big one you are postponing?
<loke[m]>
hexology: The thing I work on right now is targeting Matrix.
<Guest74>
procrastination is why I'm here! It's somehow easier to wait here hoping someone else will deal with it than reading through rfcs and fixing someone elses code.
<loke[m]>
However, I would like to build a layer in between so more than one protocol could be supported.
<loke[m]>
But right now it's Matrix only.
<hexology>
beach: learning the details of the irc protocol and making material contributions to an old established library is a big project
<beach>
Ah, OK, I see.
<loke[m]>
I think out of the protocols one could do that with, IRC is probably one of the easiest, given how simple the protocol is.
<hexology>
are you building some kind of chat protocol abstraction layer?
<loke[m]>
hexology: Not right now. But I'm trying to build the application in such a way that it will be possible to break it out into an abstraction layer.
<loke[m]>
If you wanted to help build such an abstraction layer, I'd be happy to use it.
<Guest74>
i'd happily use a standard chat protocol.
<hexology>
i don't like attempting to design "abstraction" without understanding what i'm abstracting over. but if i do end up getting my hands dirty w/ irc and matrix i would be happy to contribute whatever i learn
<Guest74>
come to think of it, hasn't shinmera already got such a thing for his own chat?
<Guest74>
though I have a hard time understanding his stuff.
<hexology>
that is what i just linked
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<hexology>
it supports irc, something i never heard of called lichat, and a relay system
<hexology>
also supports a kind of bot framework
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<Guest74>
I'm not sure that's what he uses with his own chat system though.
<Guest74>
but i could be wrong
<Guest74>
just remember something along the lines of him not being happy with it.
<hexology>
ah
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<Guest74>
welp, here's a question that just requires an opinion so maybe I can get some answers.
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<Guest74>
Has to do with app/widget layouts. I'm currently have it so that you can specify different layouts at different sizes. which can ballon quite a bit.
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<Shinmera>
maiden is what runs Colleen
<Guest74>
maybe you want some of the layouts to be resolution independent. So wondering if I should just scrap keeping layouts stored under resolutions? Though then I'm not sure how to handle css conversions of resolution dependent layouts.
<Guest74>
but maybe nobody even cares about resolution dependent layouts.
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<lotuseater>
ah nice also with an elixir server
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<fitzsim>
Mezzano has an IRC client
<opcode>
If I write a binary search on a list, given that they're linked cons cells under the hood, will a binary search be O(n) instead of O(log n)?
<fitzsim>
but I have to write a network driver for my hardware before I can start using it
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<Bike>
opcode: it's certainly at least O(n) worst case since you might have to traverse to the end of the list.
<opcode>
That was my fear. But for a 1D list I can just coerce to a vector and get log n complexity, correct?
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<Bike>
yes, vectors are random access. of course coercing to a vector will be O(n).
<opcode>
No prob, happy to pay that cost once. Thanks Bike
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<Guest74>
fitzim: that's interesting. I wonder what the reasoning was behind writing another irc backend and not using cl-irc?
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<Guest74>
welp, any thoughts on UI, ui definition, themes, theme compatability, wants/needs in a window/desktop manager?etc... before I go back to writing a UI/wm/task/desktop manager nobody will use?
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<pjb>
opcode: if you do binary search on a list, you need O(nlogn) accesses to the nodes, but since you need O(n) to access a node, that's O(n²logn) !
<opcode>
Oof
<pjb>
opcode: that's why to do binary search, we use a tree instead. Then we get O(nlogn).
<pjb>
opcode: the tree can be stored using cons cells, or using vector, it doesn't matter, as long as accessing a child is O(1).
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<opcode>
Okay thanks
<pjb>
note that to insert a node in a tree, it's better to use cons cells (or other independent node structures) than a (sorted) vector, since inserting a node in a tree is O(1) (+ O(nlogn) to find where it must be inserted), while inserting an element in a sorted vector is O(n) (+ O(nlogn) to find where to insert it).
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<anothersame>
What do you people use as a package manager?
<anothersame>
I was using quicklisp, but now that I'm interested in using some
<anothersame>
libraries not in the repos, I feel like adding qlot would be convenient,
<anothersame>
especially to share the code with others. But there is also clpm which might be good...
<fitzsim>
Guest74: it's small and has many dependencies on Mezzano, so it would probably have been more work to integrate cl-irc
<fitzsim>
Guest74: might be worth you trying it out in VM though
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<fitzsim>
not sure it'd connect to Libera though, since I don't think it does TLS
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<johnjay>
fitzsim: i like virtualbox's branched snapshop feature
<Guest74>
Only the gui client part uses mez stuff. The rest just duplicates most of the work from cl-irc, though seems less complete. I'm mainly wondering if they found other deficiencies in cl-irc that I haven't encountered yet.
<random-nick>
I don't think there's a TLS implementation available on mezzano at all
<johnjay>
it means i can have a base install then a snapshot for different types of lisps
<random-nick>
anothersame: there's ultralisp, which is an automatically updating dist for the quicklisp client https://ultralisp.org/
<Guest74>
and apparently you can connect to libera without tls on 6667 even though it's not mentionned anywhere on their site.
<fitzsim>
ah, OK then
<Guest74>
that was the first issue I encountered when I started work on a gui for it.
<etimmons>
anothersame: I use CLPM. But I also develop it, soo....
<random-nick>
anothersame: it's important to distinguish package manager and package repository, though
<random-nick>
distinguish between, I meant
<anothersame>
I understand that both quicklisp and clpm are package managers
<anothersame>
ultralisp is a repo, and qlot is a utility which integrates with quicklisp to have project local dependencies (and allows to download from other places)
<anothersame>
etimmons: given that you had a "rely on existing libraries" approach, why didn't you make clpm integrate with qlot?
<etimmons>
It was a combination of bugs in qlot, disagreeing with some fundamental qlot choices, and my desired future directions.
<anothersame>
I see
<etimmons>
A major bug I remember is that qlot reached way too far into ASDF internals and broke on ASDF upgrades for me.
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<etimmons>
I also really don't like the snapshot based approach to QL-based distributions. So the biggest future direction issue for me is that I really want to have some project index that respects and advertises ASDF system version numbers (and some other features), and easily makes all versions available for download
<etimmons>
qlot is so closely tied to Quicklisp (and uses the QL client under the hood) that I didn't think that was possible to do with qlot
<johnjay>
etimmons: i don't really understand why packaging is hard on common lisp
<johnjay>
but i barely understand how to use quicklisp
<lotuseater>
it's hard? :)
<lotuseater>
and don't throw at each other package and system definitions, that are two different things
<Guest74>
I'd think version dependencies are hard in any package manager, regardless of language.
<Guest74>
Hence why lots of people threw up their hands and developed snaps.
<lotuseater>
even on NixOS the Python packaging is a pain
<etimmons>
johnjay: My personal suspicion is it's largely down to CL existing well before "modern" packaging approaches and the CL community being pretty small. QL works for most people, most of the time and that's great! But it also means there's not a lot of people clamoring for something new.
<etimmons>
There are some technical challenges as well, especially given how extensible ASDF is, but those are solvable.
<etimmons>
Guest74: Versioned dependencies are fairly easy (to specify at least). Where it gets complicated is if people keep breaking compatibility. The more that happens, the smaller and smaller the set of releases that satisfy all constraints becomes.
<etimmons>
So I think snaps are largely down to devs not caring about things like backward compatibility
<semz>
That seems to be significantly less of a problem in CL than in other languages. Maybe it's the stability of the language that causes devs to care about it more.
<etimmons>
Yeah, it's one of the things I love about the CL ecosystem.
<Guest74>
well if anybody has any thoughts on the UI stuff I asked about, or thoughts on dividing up clx into a buffer protocol, wm stuff, and reducing it to just the x11 protocol, and maybe making it more asynchronous, I'll check the logs. (makes it easier to implement some extensions)
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<lotuseater>
etimmons: real legacy is great
<johnjay>
hrm i tried getting sdl stuff to work by doing (ql:quickload "cl-tetris3d")
<johnjay>
i got an error but went into the lispbuilder folder for cocoahelper and typed make. now the error is gone. but no graphics when i start it lol.
<lotuseater>
so you're on mac?
<johnjay>
on wait it did work it just hides the window lol
<johnjay>
yes
<johnjay>
i had to search for it in the taskbar
<lotuseater>
there should be fractal tetris, in a dimension between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 ^^
<johnjay>
i'm just amazed i can have CL doing graphical things on mac
<johnjay>
although i had to enter quicklisp and type make though. got some compiler error
<lotuseater>
apple just doesn't like things that can change themselves while they run
<lotuseater>
and of course, with CCL the cocoa interface and ffi is good as i heard
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<lotuseater>
so you don't have to get too "SWIFTy" or objective about it ;)
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<lotuseater>
and CCL was originally (1984-1987) Coral Common Lisp, then renamed MACL (Macintosh Allegro Common Lisp) and so on
<edgar-rft>
Coral Common Lisp sounds as if it was used by SpongeBob
<lotuseater>
hehe
<lotuseater>
iirc there was one episode where they used the adjective "coral" as a modern youth slang for "cool"
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<johnjay>
apparently clozure-cl is available in brew. amazing
<johnjay>
this is probably a tedious question but what's the main difference between CCL and SBCL?
<johnjay>
do they have different features
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<lotuseater>
also in the App Store
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<lotuseater>
yes they differ in some things which are let open to the implementation by the ANSI standard
<johnjay>
there's also MyLisp for $3.99
<johnjay>
and "LispPad"
<lotuseater>
Apple had the language Dylan in the past and this also had some ideas from CLOS
<hexology>
johnjay: i personally like using roswell (which is also available in brew)
<johnjay>
yeah i was messing around iwth it but i couldn't tell if it was managing common lisp installs separately or if it was a package manager/selector
<hexology>
johnjay: the former, it doesn't attempt to integrate w/ your package manager
<hexology>
however it also supports "scripts", so you can distribute your application as a roswell script in addition to quicklisp or whatever else
<hexology>
it's like pyenv or rbenv/rvm if you're familiar with those
<hexology>
or rustup
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<lotuseater>
and alienships are made of metamaterial so they don't rust ;)
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<White_Flame>
*facebookmaterial
<lotuseater>
∘.○
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