<kagevf>
I just wanted a "DTO" type class, but that I could also specialize on if I wanted to
<lisp123>
kagevf: Looks very nice
<kagevf>
thanks :)
<lisp123>
I didn't know (make-slot name slot) could work like that
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<kagevf>
(make-slot) is one of my nested functions .... under LABELS
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<kagevf>
did I inadvertently shadow something??
<hayley>
Could you do without the READ-FROM-STRING? It makes the list structure being generated harder to guess.
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<beach>
The standard says "slot-specifier".
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<beach>
The AMOP is not quite as careful with its naming conventions.
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<beach>
"The :DIRECT-SLOTS argument is a list of canonicalized slot specifications". Not so great in my opinion.
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<beach>
But that's no excuse to emulate these bad naming conventions.
<scymtym>
beach: variable (and parameter) names must balance multiple constraints: 1) uniqueness 2) reasonable conciseness 3) a description of the role of the variable in its context 4) a description of the value and probably more. i think you might be overemphasizing 4) over 3)
<beach>
Well, let me put it this way then. When I saw the parameter name SLOT, I immediately assumed it was a slot metaobject. Then when I saw (STRING SLOT) my mental model fell apart. And it is usually the case that I am not unique in any way, so it seems likely that other people will have the same reaction. So it is not doing the person reading the code a favor to write SLOT when the name of a slot is meant.
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<scymtym>
beach: i agree in that case, but for :DIRECT-SLOTS, emphasizing the direct part, that is the role in the given context, instead of :SLOT-SPECIFIERS seems fair to me. going for both with something like :SLOT-SPECIFIERS-FOR-DIRECT-SLOTS or :SPECIFIERS-FOR-DIRECT-SLOTS is probably getting too long
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<beach>
I would much prefer :SLOT-SPECIFIERS. Since you don't have specifiers for effective slots, it has to be for direct slots.
<beach>
An that is also the term used in the dictionary entry for DEFCLASS.
<beach>
In fact, they must have changed it for the standard, because the AMOP claims that the parameter for DEFCLASS is called DIRECT-SLOTS.
<scymtym>
yes, trying to stick to established terminology should be another constraint
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<beach>
Shinmera: I am continuing my reading of your article, if it is still useful: "This means that unlike" and "This leaves theprogram" are more examples where it is preferable (and I say "preferable" to avoid having some people interpret what I say as a rule) to have a demonstrative pronoun be followed by a noun phrase.
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<beach>
"error, you can immediately" -> "error; you can immediately" or "error. You can immediately" .
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<beach>
"As such they" -> "As such, they"
<beach>
"at error point" -> "at the point of the error"
<lisp123>
"This means that unlike" --> what would it become?
<beach>
Not my problem really.
<beach>
:)
<beach>
"The result of the discussion in the previous paragraph, means that unlike..."
<beach>
Or something like that.
<lisp123>
:) My english grammar is pretty bad, but I looking into the other day (unrelated to this topic). In relation to lisp, I chose to write (if (atom a) (list a) a) vs. (if (listp a) a (atom a)) for an expression that coerces an atom to a list
<lisp123>
^ That makes sense to me
<beach>
lisp123: Those two expressions are not the same.
<beach>
An atom and a list are not mutually exclusive.
<lisp123>
sorry, typo in the second one
<beach>
NIL is the exception. It is both an atom and a list.
<lisp123>
I guess NIL throws somes havoc
<beach>
CONSP is the opposite of ATOM.
<beach>
The thing with demonstrative pronouns without noun phrases is that often the author has not thought about what it is referring to, and as a result, it often does not refer to anything at all.
<lisp123>
Hmm, I guess I need (if (listp a) a (list a)) --> Although (if (and (atom a) (not (null a))) (list a) a) IMO reads better
<beach>
So it clears the thought process to always think of an appropriate noun phrase.
<beach>
lisp123: What is wrong with CONSP?
<beach>
Well, I guess it depends on what you want to do with NIL.
<beach>
So you want to leave NIL as it is?
<lisp123>
Yes, for NIL it should be treated as-is
<beach>
Then the first version is better.
<beach>
Shinmera: My (admittedly small) family says that an adverb followed by a verb should not be connected with a hyphen, so "well designed" rather than "well-designed".
<lisp123>
Reason I was partial to (if (atom a..)) (before the case of NIL made it convoluted) was that it focused more on the operation --> IF ATOM, make it a list, otherwise keep it as-is" vs. When it is not a list, make it a list
<lisp123>
One could alternatively say "If a list, keep it as is, otherwise make it a list", but I felt the focal point of the expression was on the coercion from atom to list. This is all purely subjective thinking however
<beach>
But what you felt is incorrect because of NIL.
<lisp123>
Yes, but that's user error and no fault of grammar :)
<lisp123>
One could argue (if (and (atom a) (not (null a))) (list a) a) is a clearer version, although its too long
<beach>
Shinmera: "only invoke the restart under special conditions" -> "invoke the restart only under special conditions". In writing, the first phrase reads "only INVOKE the restart [and not, say, REMOVE the restart] under special conditions" which is likely not what you want.
<beach>
In the spoken language, the distinction can be made with intonation. Not so easy in writing.
<beach>
Shinmera: "error friendly", however, should probably be "error-friendly"
<lisp123>
beach: Do you have any good resources on technical writing? Your style is very good (similar to GLS in quality)
<lisp123>
I guess standard english grammar & style considerations apply, but wonder how you learnt it all
<beach>
lisp123: Not really. I learned it the hard way by having my texts scrutinized by my (admittedly small) family. She has a PhD in English and she was the only person to be promoted to "distinguished technical writer" at ILOG. That said, Pinker's book "The sense of style" is a good start.
<beach>
Oh, and she was a copy editor in a past career too.
<lisp123>
Thanks, well it definitely shows (esp. in your age old article on formatting rules for Lisp, which I read a year ago at the start of learning Lisp). I will check out that book
<beach>
lisp123: It is really a matter of common sense in combination with re-reading your own texts carefully. You want to make the text as unambiguous as possible, and you want to get the message across fast. In technical writing, I mean. Literature is different of course.
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<beach>
Shinmera: "Using this extra information the programmer" -> "Using this extra information, the programmer". The first sentence looks like it would continue "Using this extra information the programmer provided..." which is not what you want.
<beach>
"which when set to ti its minimum will tell" -> "which, when set to ti its minimum, will tell"
<john-a-carroll>
Regarding "well-designed", as a native English speaker I think the phrase "well-designed recovery points" is fine. "well-designed" is being used as an adjective, modifying "points" which is a noun
<lisp123>
Yes, especially the re-reading part. I better get back to it, nice chatting.
<beach>
john-a-carroll: The point of the exercise here is to avoid annoying referees. I know this paper doesn't have that aspect to worry about, but I am giving general advice. And if there are groups of people that get annoyed by a hyphen between an adverb and the verb, then it is best to avoid it.
<beach>
john-a-carroll: As opposed to "I think you should do this", I mean.
<beach>
john-a-carroll: If you want to run the risk of annoying your referees by keeping the hyphen that you prefer, that decision is of course up to you.
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<beach>
john-a-carroll: I know when I am a referee, and the grammar is really bad, I can't concentrate on the contents, and that makes me really annoyed.
<beach>
And the reason I am giving the advice here, as opposed to by email, is that I think many #commonlisp participants could benefit from it.
<john-a-carroll>
I absolutely agree that idiomatic and precise writing is important - not just for the referee, but so that the eventual reader does not get confused. I'm an academic, and I've been saying this to my students all my professional life
<beach>
Good, then we agree.
<beach>
Shinmera: "This comes with the usual advantage" [see above]
<beach>
Shinmera: "When focusing on the SBCL implementation, there are" is a dangling participle.
<beach>
"These techniques mostly focus on type dispatch.." -> "These techniques focus mostly on type dispatch.."
<beach>
"This can largely be combated"
<beach>
Wow, my name is in there. :)
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<beach>
"Being such a highly dynamic language, it's unavoidable..." is a dangling participle.
<beach>
"This can be problematic"
<beach>
"this only works if the compiler" -> "this works only if the compiler"
<beach>
"This effectively creates"
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<beach>
Shinmera: The traditional grammar says that if you "replace A by B", you "substitute B for A", But not "substitute A by B".
<beach>
"substitute the call with..."
<beach>
"This then avoids"
<beach>
"this can even be extended"
<beach>
"This is especially feasible"
<loke>
"Substitute A with B" make sense. People using "for" sometimes implies it backwards, which is very difficult to parse.
<beach>
loke: But you are not a native speaker :)
<beach>
Use "replace A by B" or "replace A with B" if you are worried about people not being able to parse the other one.
<beach>
Many referees are indeed not native speakers.
<loke>
I'd say a majority of people using English are not native speakers. :-)
<beach>
Right, but that's no reason to annoy those who are by using "substitute .. with".
<beach>
Shinmera: "advantages and challenges present when working in a ..." is a dangling participle.
<beach>
Shinmera: Done. I think the paper is good, especially for the kind of audience you are targeting. Will you get to present it in person? That should be a good thing.
<Shinmera>
beach: Thanks a lot for the comments!
<Shinmera>
beach: Yes, it'll be an in-person 20 minute talk at the Game Industry Conference in Poland next week.
<jackdaniel>
it must be that he is the handsome and attractive person according to the last section :)
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<Shinmera>
Unfortunately I seem to have fallen ill with something, so I'm trying to recover today
<loke[m]>
<beach> "Right, but that's no reason to..." <- I'm not annoying them at all. I'm saying that one makes sense.
<loke[m]>
It's the "for" that has the potential to be confusing. I certainly can never get it right.
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<beach>
Shinmera: Oh, sorry to hear that. I hope you recover quickly.
<beach>
loke: Right, so then I would avoid the "substitute" as well.
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<_death>
you can look at the argument order for SUBSTITUTE (new for old) and REPLACE (old with new)..
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<beach>
_death: Interesting! I never compared the two in that respect.
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<_death>
CL operators often follow this "natural English" convention, sometimes leading to inconsistency
<beach>
Now that you mention it, it's not that surprising.
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<antoszka>
yeah, it's also a matter of reusing some then-popular names from then-mainstream Lisps whose legacy went into the ANSI standard
<antoszka>
for better or worse
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<antoszka>
Shinmera: get well!
<Shinmera>
Thanks, trying to
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<mfiano>
Shinmera: listened to half of the podcast before i got too tired. good job!
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<lisp123_>
Is there a way to disable the "Compliance failed. Load fasl prompt" in slime?
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<lisp123_>
s/compliance/compilation
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<pjb>
The importance of comma cannot be stressed too much: "Let's eat Grandma." vs. "Let's eat, Granma."
<pjb>
lisp123: M-x apropos-variable RET slime RET and find slime-load-failed-fasl
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<lisp123>
pjb: Thank you!! That was one annoying command I'm glad to get rid of!
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<stack_>
Good morning
<beach>
Hello stack_.
<beach>
stack_: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<pve>
lisp123: Hey, was it you who mentioned that you're using BKNR for something?
<lisp123>
pve: Ya, I'm a fan of BKNR
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<lisp123>
You should try it out, it works well, although there are obviously some gotchas. (which even databases have)
<pve>
lisp123: great, can you tell me how you use it? Like, does it enable new kinds of workflows, for instance?
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<lisp123>
I use it for persistent in memory data storage, _replacing_ databases. So I have a certain class. And I can create instances of that class and they automatically get added to the BKNR Data Store, which I can query because it automatically generates indexes for each slot (e.g. "class-with-slot-name")
<lisp123>
And also to export to XML
<pve>
I've never really tried any of the persistence solutions..
<lisp123>
Depends on what you are after. BKNR will be very fast because its in-memory (however it will need to load everything on startup, so if you refresh your image often, then factor that in)
<lisp123>
However, its "searching" capabilities are basically limited to hash table looksup, again very fast, but not as detailed as an SQL database. Also SQL has all the other stuff going for it - normalisations etc, so really depends on your data structure
<pve>
lisp123: For something like AllegroCache I can immediately see the value it brings, but for an in-memory solution it's less clear to me how it should be used
<lisp123>
What does AllegroCache do?
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<lisp123>
I'm no expert, but if you are primarily dealing with one set of class objects, e.g. books in a bookstore, or theorems in a maths book, or cars in a garage, then BKNR works well because its mapped directly to your class structure
<lisp123>
If you need to work across tables and link them with keys and that sort of stuff, then SQL is probably better
<pve>
lisp123: It's another object persistence solution which stores instances transparently on disk (unless I'm very mistaken)
<lisp123>
In general, you can't go wrong with SQLite or Postmodern. And maybe after looking at it from that perspective, consider BKNR or an alternative
<lisp123>
My 2cents that is
<Xach>
don't sleep on lattice
<Xach>
wait, statice? my joke has failed.
<pve>
lisp123: Yeah I'm very familiar with postmodern
<Xach>
I was trying to refernece the Symbolics database.
<lisp123>
Xach: Interesting, thanks
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<lisp123>
From Google...First Author on Statice...Weinreb, D.; Can't get much better than that
<Xach>
I have a survey book on databases and he is the author of the Statice chapter.
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<Xach>
"Object-Oriented Databases with Applications to CASE, Networks, and VLSI CAD"
<lisp123>
Nice, thanks for the info -> Will check it out
<Xach>
Hmm, flipping through it has alerted me to something I've never heard of before, "ORION" from MCC, in Common Lisp.
<Xach>
and that leads to ITASCA, another commercial Lisp database
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<didi>
Can I specialize a method's parameter to `unsigned-byte'? i.e., (defmethod foo ((non-negative-integer unsigned-byte) ...) ...)
<Xach>
didi: no. it is a type, not a class (or system class).
<didi>
Xach: Thank you.
<didi>
DEFUN and TYPECASE will do then.
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<pve>
lisp123: thanks for sharing, btw
<lisp123>
pve: Welcome :)
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<danirukun[m]>
<Arcsech> "`company-mode` worked out of the..." <- huh interesting, I keep tuning my init file, but it still does nothing - even if I manually run `company-complete`, it says "no completions"
<danirukun[m]>
If I do C-c TAB, I just get this buffer:
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<kagevf>
danirukun[m]: how about using M-/ ... it will cycle through possibilities without showing a different buffer
<kagevf>
danirukun[m]: also, with C-c TAB even if the other buffer appears, you can type some more letters and re-try to see if it finds what you want
<kagevf>
danirukun[m]: for the retry, you can just TAB ...
<kagevf>
s/just TAB/just hit TAB/
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<danirukun[m]>
I finally got it to work, basically it was an issue with me manually trying to init the slime company backend, which I accidentally thought of from an old GH issue
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<kagevf>
danirukun[m]: great! :)
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<Psybur>
Is there a proper way to treat #("aaa") as a 2D vector/array? I cant use (aref #("aaa") 0 0) here. But I can do (aref "aaa" 0) just fine.
<hayley>
That's not a 2D vector, that's a vector consisting of a string. (make-array '(1 3) :initial-contents '("abc") :element-type 'character) produces #2A((#\a #\b #\c)) though