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<Xach>
new quicklisp this day
<Xach>
(dist, that is)
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<hayley>
Xach announces Quicklisp 2: lisp quicker
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<White_Flame>
Elisptric Quickaloo
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<Xach>
2 quick 2 lispious
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<semz>
good morning
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<ArgoLargo[m]>
good night for me
<etimmons>
Xach: "Incidentally, this is the eleventh anniversary of the first Quicklisp dist release back in October 2010." That's awesome, congrats!
<etimmons>
Shinmera: I just stumbled across depot. I had something similar in mind as the next logical step after cl-tar. Now I can just add cl-tar backend for depot instead :)
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<holycow>
hi all
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<beach>
Hello holycow.
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<lukego>
Hey I'm trying to fix a build failure in UAX-15. The immediate symptom is that helper function CHAR-FROM-HEXSTRING is being called at compile-time but not defined with EVAL-WHEN. That's easy to fix. But I'm looking at the code that calls it, wondering if this needs some EVAL-WHEN too in order to have its intended effect. Anyone care to opine on https://github.com/sabracrolleton/uax-15/blob/master/src/precomputed-tables.lisp#L68-L109 ?
<lukego>
actually now I'm reading https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html and it's telling me that LOOP forms at the top-level will execute at load-time by default and then maybe I'm misreading the whole situation. The code looks like it's supposed to run at load-time and I guess the previous DEFUN should be available there. *thinks*
<etimmons>
lukego: I don't think CHAR-FROM-HEXSTRING needs an EVAL-WHEN. It seems the actual problem is in the .asd.
<etimmons>
precomputed-tables should :depend-on trivial-utf-16
<etimmons>
s/depend/depends/
<lukego>
ah, thanks!
<lukego>
Seems like we need a tree shaker type of thing that takes an ASDF system and compiles it with randomized linearizations of the dependency graph, each time in a fresh image, to look for failing cases
<etimmons>
Yeah, such a tool would be awesome. I think fare was going around for a while adding missing dependencies that he found using POIU
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<etimmons>
Although I am interested in how you ran into that... I would have expected LOAD-SYSTEM on a stock ASDF to have loaded trivial-utf-16 before operating on precomputed-tables
<lukego>
Yeah, I'm curious too. Just happened while upgrading the Nix repo to the latest Quicklisp. But maybe we should take that to #clpm or something.
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<etimmons>
Hmmm. It's possible ASDF would have done that I guess. It does still surprise me occasionally
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<etimmons>
I spent several hours today tracking down and fixing obscure ASDF upgrade bugs
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<etimmons>
And have no appetite to dive further into weird behavior tonight
<lukego>
I'm scared of the ASDF code but I am tempted now to peek at the linearization code and see if there would be an easy way to just randomize it. then I could ask Nix to build each package 100 times with randomized dependencies and probably find a bug or two.
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<etimmons>
Anyways, I'm off to bed, night!
<lukego>
night!
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<madnificent>
I see geodesic has been added to QuickLisp by an individual named mgi on GitHub. Is he by accident active on IRC?
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<lukego>
Hey I'd quite like to get ASDF to randomly shuffle the order that it builds things, while still respecting the dependency graph. I've browsed the code but I don't even know where to start looking at this. Anyone have a hot tip? If I could do that then I could easily check a whole bunch of Quicklisp packages for depepdency problems.
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<lukego>
Maybe there's a more appropraite place to ask on github somewhere..
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<jackdaniel>
a retro-computing advice would be to redefine the function asdf::parse-dependency-defs
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<jackdaniel>
to shuffle its input argument sequence
<jackdaniel>
(before mapping it)
<jackdaniel>
asdf is hosted on gitlab.common-lisp.net; a few days back fare mentioned that he will be lurking only on the mailing list though
<jackdaniel>
from now on (and I think that he has the most in-depth knowledge about asdf)
<Shinmera>
etimmons: Cool! Looking forward to a backend PR then :)
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<Cymew>
There is an asdf-devel list where you could ask questions like that, and reach those that might know.
<Cymew>
ASDF does have the problem that much knowledge is stuck in fare's head, though.
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<lisp123>
How difficult was it before the ASDF days to build and deploy systems?
<jackdaniel>
there were defsystem libraries before asdf
<jackdaniel>
mk-defsystem was a portable one put together by Mark Kantrowitz
<jackdaniel>
and there were implementation-specific build systems too
<lisp123>
MK is a legend (I'm downloading all of the CMU Repo Archives now which he meticulously maintained). Was there a reason ASDF became de facto?
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<jackdaniel>
s/was/is/, in fact mk-defsystem is still working and bundled with some implementaitons
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<lisp123>
I think a lot of us newer lisp programmers are spoilt by ASDF and QuickLisp, everything just works so smoothly for most common use cases
<jackdaniel>
another interesting bit of trivial - before quicklisp there was now-deprecated asdf-install
<jackdaniel>
I don't know the exact interface, but afair you were supposed to pass the url of the dependency and it installed it (and these dependencies could reference other urls etc), so it was decentralized - but there was no quality control (or curations) so things easily broke :)
<jackdaniel>
s/curations/curation/
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<lisp123>
jackdaniel: Ah, nice to hear some of the history
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<jackdaniel>
it is all hearsay, I'm using cl since 2010s or something :)
<jackdaniel>
probably around 2013, I don't remember
<lisp123>
That's 8 solid years :)
<beach>
Isn't there a book with the title "Learn Common Lisp in 10 years" or something like that?
<beach>
Maybe made that up.
<lisp123>
I tried searching, but didn't find it. Would be curious to read it for sure. There is a really good set of online notes for teaching Lisp to kids, but I can't seem to find it
<beach>
Well, either way, the book "Peak, secretes from the new science of expertise" claims that pretty much every expert in any domain has spent 10 years or so of hard work to get there. The converse is not true of course. In software development, we have people who worked for much longer than that without becoming experts.
<beach>
jackdaniel: That's it! Thanks!
<jackdaniel>
OK, 2 years more and only after that I will be entitled to feel disappointed that I've wasted that time and didn't become an expert :)
<jackdaniel>
sure
<lisp123>
beach: Although I think that's in every field (perhaps not doctors or lawyers, they sort of have to get things very right)
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<lisp123>
And there are many bad CEOs (most?) out there too as an example
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<beach>
Maybe so.
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<spec>
jackdaniel: o, I'm surprised! I'm already beyond 10 years mark... but not doing much CL since almost 2 years (or in fact doing just L part of CL ;) )
<spec>
BTW Hello! :)
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<beach>
Hello spec.
<jackdaniel>
hey spec :)
<beach>
spec: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<spec>
mrSpec from freenode
<beach>
Ah, of course.
<spec>
spec was free, so it was time to drop the mr I didnt like anyway
<beach>
Got it.
<pjb>
Perhaps it was Stanford LISP 1.6, since it worked on pdp-10.
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<pjb>
Ah, no, MacLISP was before Stanford LISP 1.6: "When Stanford received a PDP-6 [the original MacLISP developed at M.I.T.] was converted to run under the DEC monitor; several modifications and embellishments were performed and this LISP became LISP 1.6, also known as Stanford LISP."
<pjb>
By the way, it seems to me that the REPL was an important factor in the development of the condition system. In LISP 1.5, and other early lisps, there was just a global error handler hook, which was certainly sufficient for batch programs…
<beach>
I guess the Multics command processor was like a REPL. I am saying that because Multics PL/I is the origin of the Common Lisp condition system.
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<pl>
wass the command processor a privileged component or did it run normally inside user context?
<beach>
I think it was an ordinary application.
<pl>
because iirc, multics esssentially logged you into a single process, and everything you ran operated within that image
<pl>
(if you were privileged enough, you could get more than one simultaneous image)
<beach>
Correct. No new process was created when a command was invoked.
<pl>
then I'd say it was definitely a repl, since every command essentially invoked a function visible in the image
<beach>
So in that respect too it was like a Common Lisp REPL. If a condition was signaled, one could examine the stack, run the debugger, etc.
<beach>
Right.
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<pjb>
Interesting…
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<madnificent>
jackdaniel: there were multiple approaches before QuickLisp but I do recall the community gravitating to QuickLisp very very rapidly. Finding compatible libraries could be a challenge, especially for novices like myself. Some of the speed of adoption came from Xach's well-deserved reputation. Starting with QuickLisp was also much easier than the alternatives, at least for my clouded view at the time.
<jackdaniel>
madnificent: there is no doubt that quicklisp is more convenient - libraries are tested between releases whether they work and that is a huge difference
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<pjb>
jackdaniel: only on sbcl.
<jackdaniel>
pjb: sure, still i t is a deal breaker, the fact that libraries are required to be portable among at least two implementations is also very encouraging, because it prevents librariers with dirty internals hacks that can't be ported
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<nature>
Hi all, I am interested, has there been anyone crazy enough to start an effort of porting cl to plan 9?
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<amk>
I dont know if anyone has done this, but also i wonder if a lisp->disvm compiler could be intersting on inferno
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<mzan>
nature: Plan9 is a distribuited OS. Maybe one can simply support the 9P protocol in CL or the Styx Inferno protocol, so systems written in CL can interact with systems written in Plan9/Inferno.
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<nature>
This would make sense indeed but I was thinking of a cl compiler on Plan 9, but the 9P protocol would be important to write programs to interface with Plan9 indeed but I don't think this is enough for the said programs to run on Plan9
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<pl>
actually the opposite
<pl>
programs running on plan9 do not need to understand or talk 9P
<pl>
unless they want to be 9P servrs
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<nature>
Would the best way to start with something like ecl maybe? Since it can transpile lisp to C
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<pl>
so long as you remember to focus on static linking and/or write custom library loader
<pl>
as Plan9 has no dynamic library system (and even more importantly, no shared libraries)
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<shka>
uhm, is plan9 a relevant operating system even?
<mzan>
shka: if you study Plan9 idea/paradigms, it is still fascinating. So from a theorical point of view it is still "relevant". It is not used in practice, except few enthusiast.
<mzan>
The commercial successor of Plan9 paradigm/idea is Inferno.
<shka>
ok
<mzan>
But I don't know how much Inferno is used. Probably less than CL.
<mzan>
Very few idea of Plan9, in particular the programming language, are now in the Go PL.
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<nature>
shka: Depends what you call relevant. 9front is maintained by a pretty active community and honestly works pretty well for most tasks.
<pl>
there are few commercial products running plan9 too
<pl>
but no, it's not a major OS
<nature>
If relevant = chrome/firefox bootloader, then Plan 9 is irrelevant indeed.
<pl>
but then, so is Mezzano
<pl>
nature: Plan9 was capable of running Firefox for a time if you prepared the binary in certain way
<nature>
Yeah I know, they managed to build Xorg for it at some point
<nature>
I've been using/learning on it for about 2 months on and off, I really like it, it is as eye opening regarding OSes as CL was for me regarding programming!
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<paulapatience>
a bit of trivia: i wrote the tiff encoder and decoder as well as the jpeg encoder for 9front several years ago :)
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<jcowan>
nature: Scheme is not CL, but Chibi Scheme has a native Plan9 port.
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<copec>
pjb: Does it have the full condition system?
<copec>
Is it meant to use CL as embedded into Scheme?
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<pjb>
copec: it's old and bitrotten. But it's scheme, so a lisper could revive it…
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<jcowan>
Conversely, I wrote an implementation of T (a Scheme) in CL called CLTAU, relying on the underlying CL to do tail recursion. I posted it to comp.sources.misc, but it seems to have been lost.
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<pjb>
jcowan: github/gitlab seem safer for the time being than usenet…
<jcowan>
"For the time being" being the operative word.
<jcowan>
They didn't exist then.
<pjb>
jcowan: at least, with git, you can push to multiple repositories.
<jcowan>
Ditto on Usenet.
<pjb>
jcowan: I know, hence my tongue-in-cheek comment.
<pjb>
Why is comp.sources.misc lost?
<jcowan>
With you I can never be sure
<jcowan>
I searchet the google and funet.fi archives without success.
<pjb>
but yes, we'd have to find an archive including it, while not being indexed by google.
<jcowan>
Thanks. sunet.se gave me volumes 1-8. Perhaps there was no archiving then, or I screwed up the archive headers.
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<jcowan>
Is the practice of defining a macro around a procedure for ease of use at the repl (to avoid typing ' a lot) or to catch errors at compile time still common? Is there a name for this sort of macro?
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<hayley>
Eventually I intend to have all the compiler macros for my regular expression engine "lint" the regular expression provided, so it's common to me. I don't know if it has a name though.
<jcowan>
Is it posted anywhere?
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<hayley>
Well, I haven't done it yet. But given that it compiles the regex at load-time, you'd still get parse errors at compile time.