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<mattb0ne>
I think my board is dead AGAIN! Though this time I did not do anything
<mattb0ne>
i havent turned it on in a few months but I shut it down normally now it wont power from the barrel jack
<mattb0ne>
the micro usb gives me that flash of death
<mattb0ne>
not sure what could of derped the board since it wasnt in use
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<mattb0ne>
zmatt question on the possiblity of eMMC errors using the screw terminals
<mattb0ne>
I was having problems with noise coming over the serial line which would throw off my program. Is it possible the screw terminal could causee a communication issue as well?
<zmatt>
I mean, that's a very different thing.. my concern with eMMC is the signal integrity degradation of high-speed signals when you add a long stub (a dead-end electrical connection, in this case to the screw terminal)
<zmatt>
your serial communication is 9600 baud iirc
<zmatt>
any reflections caused by impedance mismatching are on a time scale that's a miniscule fraction of a single bit, and aren't going to affect uart communication
<zmatt>
now, noise pickup is a completely separate issue
<zmatt>
I'm not sure to what extent this will be influenced by a screw terminal board like the one you're using... I suppose there might be increased risk of cross-talk from neighbouring connections/pcb traces, and a it might increase the risk of a poor (high-resistance) connection of the uart signal or the ground connection to the load cell if they're not making good contact in the terminals, and that would ...
<zmatt>
...make it more prone to noise ...
<zmatt>
... pickup
<zmatt>
what exactly are you observing?
<zmatt>
if your program is halting on a parse error of the uart data, be sure to dump the receive buffer of the pru program to analyze what exactly was received since that would be a helpful clue w.r.t to what's going on
<zmatt>
e.g. if a noise pulse on the uart line is triggering a false start of a character receive you would expect to see a 0xff byte interjected
<mattb0ne>
yeah that is what was happening a while back. I never resolved so I just disabled the UART stream
<mattb0ne>
but it sounds like it could be suspect. I am going to do some testing
<mattb0ne>
if I can connect. I think I confused one of my dead beagles for a working one LOL
<mattb0ne>
I am on board 7
<mattb0ne>
lol
<mattb0ne>
so I have quite a few but it makes me careful
<zmatt>
motor switching is a plausible source of noise
<mattb0ne>
I had that as well
<mattb0ne>
I bought this sheilding tape
<mattb0ne>
did not seem to help though
<mattb0ne>
does it matter what ethernet port I plug into on a switch
<zmatt>
keeping motor drive wiring separated from the uart lines may help, shielding may be possible, or just make the pru program more robust to errors (e.g. ignore 0xff bytes in uart_recv_line)
<zmatt>
ehh, no?
<mattb0ne>
i cannot resolve beaglebone.local for some reason
<zmatt>
if it's a normal switch anyway
<mattb0ne>
it says they are connected but I cannot resolve the local host adddress
<zmatt>
try connecting to beaglebone-2.local or try rebooting
<zmatt>
sometimes avahi gets confused, especially when fiddling with the ethernet connection, and thinks it has a name-collision and ends up renaming itself
<mattb0ne>
reboot the machine or the beagle
<zmatt>
the beagle
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<zmatt>
how are you communicating with your load cell currently, via RS232 or RS485 ?
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<zmatt>
because RS485 should have good noise immunity if twisted pair cabling is used, although that doesn't protect the segment between the beaglebone and the RS485 transceiver obviously
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<mattb0ne>
rs232
<mattb0ne>
I dont twist the non load cell wires
<mattb0ne>
I could try that as well
<zmatt>
you can try using a shielded cable (connected to ground on both ends)
<mattb0ne>
ok
<zmatt>
for the load cell uart connection I mean
<mattb0ne>
ok
<zmatt>
twisting is mainly for differential pairs hence not applicable to rs-232
<mattb0ne>
I can buy some
<zmatt>
I'm pretty sure rs-232 cable is normally always shielded
<zmatt>
I guess maybe using a twisted pair for the motor wires could theoretically help, depending on how exactly the noise is being induced on the uart line... though keeping the motor wires close together and separated from communication line ought to suffice
<zmatt>
(and same for the supply lines to the motor driver)
<zmatt>
can you make a diagram of your entire setup?
<mattb0ne>
I can tkae some pictures and label
<mattb0ne>
will take me a bit thought
<mattb0ne>
though
<zmatt>
a diagram would be preferable though I guess pictures could work if they're clear enough and you insist on off-loading the work of making a diagram to me :P
<zmatt>
what I'm mainly curious about is how exactly ground and supplies are connected... for communication links the only thing that matters is which components have one or more data connections to which (the number doesn't matter)
<mattb0ne>
well the junctions may be suspect
<zmatt>
so it can be a pretty simple diagram
<mattb0ne>
like I have these clip connectors and stuff
<mattb0ne>
I would want feed back there as well
<zmatt>
I mean, crap connections are obviously not going to improve the probability of everything working reliably
<mattb0ne>
i know i know
<mattb0ne>
but your view of crappy and my view of crappy are probably not aligned
<mattb0ne>
lOL
<zmatt>
I would personally be inclined to quickly switch to making decently neat custom cables by soldering wires onto headers, e.g. something like https://photos.app.goo.gl/2uy63oGu3q3vE3c57
<zmatt>
(not sure what the goop is for, I didn't make this particular cable... maybe to keep the pins from sliding)
<mattb0ne>
you think that is better than screw terminal
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<mattb0ne>
or are screw terminals considerd much worse than that
<zmatt>
well the terminals and the cape pcb itself are certainly not going to help with signal integrity, though whether it makes enough of a difference in practice I don't know. another potential issue is that if you disassemble/reassemble your setup then screw terminals are a lot more work, increases risk of incorrect or poor-quality connections, and the screw will probably damage the wires over time which ...
<zmatt>
...again is a risk factor (and ...
<zmatt>
... produces tiny bits of copper wire which is always fun near electronics)
<zmatt>
argh I hate that there's two things splitting my chatlines into two parts, with the second splitter having a lower threshold... I should figure out what's causing that
<zmatt>
(repeating the long chat line to test if I fixed splitting) "well the terminals and the cape pcb itself are certainly not going to help with signal integrity, though whether it makes enough of a difference in practice I don't know. another potential issue is that if you disassemble/reassemble your setup then screw terminals are a lot more work, increases risk of incorrect or poor-quality connections, ...
<zmatt>
...and the screw will probably damage the wires over time which again is a risk factor (and produces tiny bits of copper wire which is always fun near electronics)"
<zmatt>
yay that fixed it
<zmatt>
mattb0ne: unless of course you're crimping lugs onto the wires you're using in your screw terminals
<zmatt>
screw terminals have their uses for fairly securely connecting individual wires (where a header/jumper would be prone to being accidently pulled out)
<zmatt>
but a header strip/block of a bunch of pins isn't insecure either, and it certainly makes it much easier and much less error-prone if you want to disconnect and reconnect the whole group of wires
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<zmatt>
I dunno, you do you
<mattb0ne>
ok
<zmatt>
I'm more worried about "<mattb0ne> like I have these clip connectors and stuff" than screw-terminals
<mattb0ne>
i can solder up some headers making that diagram now
<zmatt>
but yeah I'm more interested in the diagram first
<mattb0ne>
more pressing though I still cannot connect via ethernet
<mattb0ne>
but let me fnishin the diagram one moment
<zmatt>
try connecting the beaglebone via usb so that you can login via that and see what's going on
<zmatt>
or check your router to see what its IP is
<mattb0ne>
almost done
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<zmatt>
I think you swapped V+ and V- to the beaglebone, but that's just a detail :P
<mattb0ne>
so everything there is in tight proximity
<mattb0ne>
I basically cram it into a box
<mattb0ne>
nothing is soldered
<mattb0ne>
so I can putting in over the USB
<mattb0ne>
i must of fried my working board
<mattb0ne>
so I forgot if I did anything to get it to connect over the ethernet
<mattb0ne>
I guess I did have a spare
<zmatt>
I'm a bit confused about the 24V... is that "24VDC" block a dc-dc converter? if so, what's its input and where is it coming from?
<mattb0ne>
oh I messed up the label that should be a 5VDC
<mattb0ne>
it is a stepdown convertor
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<mattb0ne>
before going to the beagle
<zmatt>
right, that too
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<zmatt>
where's power actually coming into this diagram? like, both supply blocks look like converters (albeit poorly labeled with what's their input and what's their output) but the power seems to come from nowhere
<mattb0ne>
i will modify and send one second
<zmatt>
also quite important, are these isolated converters, in the sense that their output is floating relative to their input, or do the input and output share a common ground? (you can check this by using a multimeter to measure continuity between GND/V- on the input and GND/V- on the output of the converter, while the converter is not hooked up to anything obviously)
<zmatt>
also, 110AC doesn't have "V+/V-/GND" .. but you don't need to label the 110AC connections anyway
<mattb0ne>
is what I mean when I say splitter or lever nut
<zmatt>
that's just stuff connected together, i.e. a T-junction of wires
<mattb0ne>
ok that is what I meant but splitter
<mattb0ne>
by*
<mattb0ne>
should I not relable then?
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<zmatt>
I don't care about the 110AC labels, what does matter is that you drew a 24V supply with two separate outputs while you're saying you're using only one output and splitting that
<zmatt>
the point of this diagram is to trace how exactly ground and supplies are run and where high currents may be flowing, so these details matter
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<mattb0ne>
ok let me update
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<zmatt>
if your 24V supply has multiple outputs, is there a reason you're not using a separate one for the motor driver?
<zmatt>
that motor driver will be the primary source of noise due to rapid changes in current
<zmatt>
my question earlier about whether there's continuity between GND/V- on the input and GND/V- on the output of the 5V converter still stands btw, and likewise it would be interesting to know if there's continuity between the GND/V- of one output of the 24V supply and the GND/V- of another output
<zmatt>
hum, I just noticed the EM100 uses two pins for V+ (Vin) and two pins for V- (Vinreturn) ... so I'm suddenly curious how much current is flowing there and whether it's continuous or pulsed
<zmatt>
I kinda assumed it didn't have substantial power consumption
<mattb0ne>
where do you see two V+ for EM100
<mattb0ne>
the manual?
<zmatt>
the picture on the cover of the user manual
<zmatt>
as well as section 3.3.2 Power Connection
<mattb0ne>
also I can putty into the board no problem just cannot go via the ethernet cable
<mattb0ne>
I dont need to do anything on the beagle side to get that to work correct
<mattb0ne>
it should know it is called beaglebone.local
<mattb0ne>
nothing has changed on the pc side
<mattb0ne>
just a new board
<zmatt>
if you can login then you can check if anything is up with its ethernet networking
<mattb0ne>
ok
<zmatt>
check what its ip is on ethernet, and whether you can ping that ip from your pc
<zmatt>
let me make a diagram of what my actual concern is here
<mattb0ne>
so you think I am mixing things that should not be mixed?
<zmatt>
just hold on a moment
<zmatt>
my concern is with the high current path for the motor and how exactly that current is flowing
<zmatt>
I've just updated https://photos.app.goo.gl/nMxfDPGKPMXwzAEx8 highlighting how we want that current to flow, and two potential paths where we definitely _don't_ want this current to be flowing
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<mattb0ne>
you are not worried about the beagle
<mattb0ne>
is that because of the stepdown convertor would shield it
<mattb0ne>
or it has internals that protect it from the high current stuff
<zmatt>
whether or not these paths I highlighted in red are possible very much depends on whether the different ground terminals on one component are tied together, which is why I've been asking questions about that.... e.g. the beaglebone has a single ground so the path through the beaglebone in the bottomleft diagram is definitely possible, but it may or may not be able to go through the 5V supply. based ...
<zmatt>
...on the EM100 documentation it sounds like its power ground is isolated from its communications ground which means the path in the bottomright diagram is *probably* not possible
<zmatt>
there's also the question of course whether the power ground and communication ground of the motor driver are tied together or isolated... if they're isolated then neither path in red is possible but I very much suspect they're tied together
<mattb0ne>
so I need to take the multi meter like you said earlier
<zmatt>
if the different outputs of your 24V supply are isolated from each other than putting the motor driver on one output and remaining stuff on a different output would also prevent both paths (and would likely also prevent the motor driver from inducing supply noise into the other components)
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<zmatt>
unless clearly documented, the easiest way to determine if different ground/V- terminals on a device are isolated or not is indeed to just measure... measure continuity, or measure resistance
<zmatt>
(while nothing is attached to the component you're doing the measurement on)
<zmatt>
(or, well, it's fine if one side is still attached I guess, e.g. you could detach all the power supply lines (V+ and V-) but leave communication lines attached, that wouldn't affect the measurement)
<zmatt>
(or to measure whether two outputs of the 24V supply are isolated it's okay if one of them is in use as long as the other one has nothing attached)
<mattb0ne>
so the individual outputs are not isolated
<mattb0ne>
I could split things after the step down convertor
<mattb0ne>
how can one check the ip of the beagle if you only have a network switch instead of a router
<zmatt>
"ip addr" on the beaglebone shows all interfaces and their ips... or you can use "ip addr show eth0" to just show the ip(s) of the ethernet interface
<zmatt>
if you have your entire setup connected and want to be lazy you can also do a single measurement to check if there's *any* bogus ground path, by disconnecting just the V- terminal of the motor driver and measure between that wire and the terminal it normally connects to: https://photos.app.goo.gl/FmvYAYRqAcJqRKKq9
<zmatt>
(obviously power down your setup before doing any of these measurements)
<zmatt>
if nothing is connected then it'll be easier to just measure the components individually, and that's also more informative anyway
<zmatt>
note that in all cases you're expecting either very low resistance between two GND terminals (a few ohm at most) or very high resistance (possibly too high for a multimeter to even measure, i.e. it'll just show open circuit)
<zmatt>
anything in between would be much weirder and cause for further analysis what's going on
<mattb0ne>
ok I have another path
<zmatt>
"<mattb0ne> so the individual outputs are not isolated" .. that's too bad, if they were isolated then putting the motor driver on a separate output would have been the quick and easy way to remove all concern. (even if not isolated it might perhaps still be useful to do that anyway)
<mattb0ne>
I disconnected V- on the motor and touched V- on the PSU and its connected
<mattb0ne>
I may just buy another power suppy with isoalted out puts
<zmatt>
yeah, which can induce noise on all communication paths
<zmatt>
unfortunately this doesn't tell us what that path looks like
<zmatt>
you could try disconnecting the supply (at least V- but preferably also V+) from the EM100 or from the beaglebone to check which one is the culprit
<zmatt>
"or from the beaglebone" ... instead of disconnecting you can of course disconnect either side of the 5V supply
<zmatt>
(we know the beaglebone is a through-connection for ground, the question is whether the 5V supply is)
<zmatt>
I suspect the path is via the 5V supply + beaglebone
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<zmatt>
if there's no path through the EM100 (just through the beaglebone) then a solution would be to use a separate 110V to 5V adapter for the beaglebone
<zmatt>
oh btw, also an interesting question... you were drawing three lines on the input side of the 24V supply i.e. it has a connection to protective earth... is that tied to the GND of its outputs?
<mattb0ne>
no
<mattb0ne>
I do not have anything connected to the PSU ground besides the wall ground wire
<zmatt>
yes but my question is whether the supply ties that to the GND/V- of its outputs
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<mattb0ne>
no I could add a connection to between V- and GND of the PSU if you think it would help
<zmatt>
no
<zmatt>
it would add a concern if such a connection existed, though a rather minor one compared to the motor driver ground loop we've found
<mattb0ne>
if I test the V- of the motor driver and V- of both the EM100 GNDC and 5V V- they show as connected
<zmatt>
uh okay but what did you disconnect prior to performing that measurement?
<mattb0ne>
I disconnected th 5V from V+ and V-
<mattb0ne>
I disconnected GNDC on the EM100
<zmatt>
okay and you're showing the input V- and output V- of the 5V supply as connected?
<zmatt>
and GND and GND of the EM100?
<zmatt>
*GNC and GNC
<zmatt>
I'd especially be surprised about the EM100 because that would contradict its documentation
<mattb0ne>
yes on the 5Vdc
<mattb0ne>
GND and GNDC of the EM100 are connected
<zmatt>
sorry I meant Vinreturn and GNDC
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<zmatt>
any supply with mains input will be isolated
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<zmatt>
mind you, we don't know for sure whether this is the source of your noise issues or whether a separate supply is really needed
<zmatt>
if the supply connection to the motor driver is good enough (wires that are short and/or thick enough to have negligible resistance, good low-resistance connections to the motor driver and the supply) then in theory it shouldn't matter that there's an alternate path
<zmatt>
also, "<mattb0ne> that is not" .. you mean EM100 Vinreturn and GNDC are isolated? so the only path is through the beaglebone
<zmatt>
?
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<zmatt>
in that case it would make more sense to just put the beaglebone on its own mains-powered 5V 2A supply
<zmatt>
the beaglebone doesn't need 220W of power :P
<zmatt>
and putting the motor driver on a separate output of your 24V supply would at least avoid the splitter in between (with associated risks of poor connections)
<zmatt>
especially for testing you can also use a 2A+ usb charger to power the beaglebone (either via usb or via P9 using a cable like this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qfzHiWw2ouFXV2B17 )
<mattb0ne>
yes
<mattb0ne>
ok
<mattb0ne>
yeah the only real reason I was going this route was the wall adapter for the beagle is too short
<zmatt>
(actually that cable wouldn't apply to you since you're using that screw terminal cape so you could just connect the wires directly...)
<mattb0ne>
whats the name of this cord
<set_>
Wood?
<mattb0ne>
wood?
<set_>
wood cord?
<set_>
Lumberjack humor.
<zmatt>
mattb0ne: name? it's just a usb cable with the B-end cut off, soldered onto a 2x3 header?
<zmatt>
mattb0ne: have you always had these uart noise issues or did they just appear some day? because in the latter case my first suspicion would be that maybe the motor driver's V- connection to the supply just isn't as good as it was before
<zmatt>
(or a poor connection of the uart and/or communication ground between EM100 and MAX232 or between MAX232 and beaglebone)
<mattb0ne>
it was something that got worse with time
<mattb0ne>
at first it would be once every couple days
<mattb0ne>
then recently like multiple times a day
<mattb0ne>
something changed or got worse
<mattb0ne>
I am going switch to soldered connections
<mattb0ne>
I am not prototyping anymore so I can make them permenant
<zmatt>
it certainly seems far more plausible that the quality of connections have changed (especially if you ever physically touch your setup) than that the resistance of the wires spontaneously increased ;)
<mattb0ne>
probabaly right, just not sure what changed
<mattb0ne>
soldering will probably make them more reliable
<mattb0ne>
taking a dinner break I will be back
<mattb0ne>
still need to get this dumb beagle to connect
<mattb0ne>
I hate ethernet ports
<mattb0ne>
brb
<mattb0ne>
afk
<zmatt>
that hate seems misplaced, for me it always works fine :P
<zmatt>
(apart from the very rare occasion that a beaglebone's phy bug is triggered, but it's quite obvious when that happens)
<set_>
Ethernet, phy bug, who are you?
<set_>
Just kiddin'.
<set_>
Besides that idea and those jokes, what are you guys discussing?
<set_>
Building hardware?
<set_>
Get the TI chips that can handle heavy doses of heat. You will need the heat to test...
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<set_>
I had a 1949 handling 14v for over 30 min. and it was rated at 6v.
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<set_>
I was losing it. Maybe mattb0ne is going to get a dose of hysteresis.