Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum feed: #armbian-rss | Type 'help' for help | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
<stipa>
i think arm with same amount of processing power as intel will suck the same amount amount of energy
<stipa>
it can be clearly seen that sbcs with some power need heatsink
<stipa>
with fan
<stipa>
so aproaching intel could be painful
<stipa>
it's not that intel doesn't care about power consumption
<stipa>
it does
<stipa>
but if you want speed the juice needs to flow
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @jonmasters @bitcrazed @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs You know what got me really excited? When I heard that XCode on the Apple M1 performed much better than the equivalent on Intel hardware. Apparently compiler workloads are quite friendly with the processor, and that means it has a serious change as a native *developer* platform https://tinyurl.com/yfqntgla (23s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @bitcrazed @armbian @BRIAN_____ Porting a mobile app to run within the browser definitely takes a lot of work and comes with restrictions. It's not so much about performance but development cost + platform limitations, and the UX of the end result (native app vs browser app) https://tinyurl.com/yf8hw3p8 (22s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @jonmasters @bitcrazed @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs I mean, the way I look at it, the only thing truly standing in the way of widespread ARM adoption is just application compatibility. Even if WoA was there first, macOS already vastly surpassed it on that regard, but at the same time Apple is moving the entire ecosystem to ARM https://tinyurl.com/ye6htfqy (7s ago)
<lanefu>
For platforms that scale horizontally Arm will be untouchable from a cost perspective because of denisty and operational costs
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @jonmasters @bitcrazed @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs The Surface Pro X seems more a prudent experimental device, but one that confirms it can work. This device already feels perfect when using native apps, what makes it bad is emulation. Help developers port and adopt WoA and the game completely changes overnight https://tinyurl.com/yjkakrko (6s ago)
<lanefu>
Theres a reason that amazon made their own special purpose hardware and chips
<stipa>
nicely coded software also plays a big part in the whole picture
<stipa>
if it does the job on arm cores why not
<lanefu>
The subjective simplixity of Arm and RISC is clearly making it easier to fabricate chips at smaller sizes and we're watching x86 stuggle to get to 7nm
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @jonmasters @bitcrazed @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs This is why I am a bit mad that Microsoft still doesn't offer a way to officially license WoA to run as a VM in Parallels for macOS. It would just make WoA accessible to a lot of devs who in turn would push for wider WoA adoption and ultimately benefit everyone https://tinyurl.com/yfrkru6f (16s ago)
<stipa>
IBM is boasting to have 2nm tech
<stipa>
around week ago
<stipa>
May 6, 2021
<lanefu>
Yeah i caught that
<stipa>
before that people were talking it's nearly impossible
<stipa>
to go that tiny
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> there no such tiny transistors. they just add layers to the high
<stipa>
who'll make first cpu with that tech is a question
<stipa>
maybe a gpu
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> and "2 nm" means "so many transistors as it placed on some space if they still placed in one layer"
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @jonmasters @bitcrazed @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs The Microsoft strategy should be to make WoA as accessible as possible to the widest amount of developers out there, even if it means VMs running on the Apple M1. For the platform to succeed it needs to outgrow a few niche, premium devices like the Surface Pro X. Make it relevant https://tinyurl.com/yhxzbrw3 (12s ago)
<stipa>
oh, so it's just a part of a transistor on one layer?
<stipa>
makes sense yeah,
<stipa>
i think with 2nm you can't even a make transistor
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> no. each transistor takes some layers. but then it can stacks, like books.
<stipa>
in 2nm space*
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> one transistor - one boook. then books one to one
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<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> they add transistors into the height, but count like they placed on one layer,
<stipa>
it's mind fuck
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> real resolution still about 35-45 nm. all progress from that time done with invention of new 3d forms of elements and 3d placement. none resolution itself or transistors or semicondictors parts.
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> * real resolution still about 35-45 nm. all progress from that time done with invention of new 3d forms of elements and 3d placement. not change resolution itself or transistors or semicondictors parts.
<stipa>
so
<stipa>
it's 2nm from the bird perspective and 45nm looking from the side
<stipa>
45nm tall
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> like that
<stipa>
2x45 nm
<stipa>
|
<stipa>
like that
<stipa>
there was a cool anime
<stipa>
is a cool anime
<stipa>
about fishermans in the future
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <nekomancer[m]> name?
<stipa>
they have toens like that
<stipa>
towns*
<stipa>
sec, i'll check
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @bitcrazed @armbian @BRIAN_____ Consider this: we all know UWP and "modern apps" adapted for Windows in tablet mode failed to meet expectations, but Windows could definitely run Android apps with first-class support and deep Windows integration, instead of using some fullscreen Android emulator app https://tinyurl.com/ydzq54uc (15s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @bitcrazed @armbian @BRIAN_____ When I look at my Surface Pro X side-by-side with my iPad Pro, this is all I think about: why not simply run Android apps on it? It's slimmer, has a better screen, and unlike the iPad, it can actually run the full Microsoft Office suite, not some limited mobile edition. https://tinyurl.com/yfr3b5ey (3s ago)
<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] * nekomancer[m] goes to sleep but will read log tomorrow. have good time!
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @bitcrazed @armbian @BRIAN_____ The cool thing is Microsoft doesn't have to convince developers to rework and publish UWP apps when they already have an Android app. All they would need to do is republish what they have, and it would work natively on WoA. That's a whole lot less work for everyone involved https://tinyurl.com/yjk5ywo7 (14s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @bitcrazed @armbian @BRIAN_____ And if you don't think it can be done *well*, think again: WSL2 happened, and it now even supports GUI apps. Think of like as "Windows Subsystem for Android" leveraging a common WSL2 + a whole lot of Android-specific extensions and host integration to make it deeply integrated https://tinyurl.com/yds7j86r (9s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@bitcrazed (Rich Turner 🏴): @awakecoding @jonmasters @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs Overnight. Do you know how long it's taken to get devs to port x86 apps to x64? https://t.co/RSHY3W7AG9https://tinyurl.com/yhymj269 (4s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@bitcrazed (Rich Turner 🏴): @awakecoding @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @armbian @BRIAN_____ You know where WSL came from, right? https://tinyurl.com/yekxkhfm (11s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @jonmasters @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs I meant the *situation* changes overnight 😅 I am well aware these things take time, just look at Visual Studio finally getting 64-bit support after all those years. It has to start somewhere, and it means putting it in the hands of as many devs as possible https://tinyurl.com/ydnaghaj (8s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @armbian @BRIAN_____ I wrote this hoping you would notice 🙂 I know you are behind it. Let's say you already have the Android Linux kernel running in WSL2, you're left with "just" the Android userland, how hard can it be? I'm half kidding but I'd still like to hear your thoughts https://tinyurl.com/yeg8k9jm (30s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @jonmasters @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs This being said, I consider the Surface Pro X a successful experiment. This device is absolutely sublime, so slim, fanless, and it just works? We're just lucky Apple decided to make the switch for their entire ecosystem, because the Apple M1 brought further market validation. https://tinyurl.com/yf2ch9d8 (7s ago)
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<bd1308>
yay! I'm migrated!
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @jonmasters @slpnix @_msw_ @armbian @BRIAN_____ @SteveSyfuhs My point is that even if benchmarks make the Qualcomm chip look bad, the current Surface Pro X is already perfect in my mind. The only thing that spoils it is the lack of native ARM64 apps. Emulation should be seen as just a helper to ease the transition, not a permanent solution https://tinyurl.com/yzm3j239 (12s ago)
<stipa>
bd1308: wb
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @armbian @BRIAN_____ What I have in mind is a custom Android distribution meant adapted to run inside WSL2 with deep integration into the host Windows OS. Unlike regular Linux apps you don't need to handle multiple windows, it can be done with a single rendering surface with proper GPU acceleration https://tinyurl.com/yhajrfz2 (14s ago)
<ArmbianTwitter>
@awakecoding (Marc-André Moreau): @bitcrazed @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @armbian @BRIAN_____ I'm not sure I would do it like WSL2 GUI apps + RDP VAIL, but it would definitely leverage the VMBus a lot for host/guest integration and use shared memory buffers. If you can render it nicely in the host and correctly provide the guest with GPU access, the result would be neat https://tinyurl.com/ygx7zaxp (28s ago)
<[TheBug]>
holy twitter spam Batman!
<ArmbianTwitter>
@steskalj (John (Janko) Steskal #Devops #CSharp #WinServer): @awakecoding @bitcrazed @SteveSyfuhs @slpnix @_msw_ @jonmasters @armbian @BRIAN_____ I'm not sure what the status is on Project Latte, but if it is still being worked on, it is exactly what you are looking for. All you @Microsoft / @Windows /@windowsinsider please chime in. https://tinyurl.com/yhjy3crt (16s ago)
<lanefu>
welcome back bd1308 !
<lanefu>
and i think the lesson here is for IgorPec not to reply to posts by Jon Masters
<lanefu>
lemme see if i can shut down twitterbot for now
<Macer>
lol
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<lanefu>
ROFL
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<IgorPec>
OMG what a spam :)
<Werner>
haha
<Werner>
Good morning btw
<IgorPec>
good morning
<Xogium>
morning
<IgorPec>
if we are going to intensify twitter presence, then this has to be mitigated
<Werner>
Probably increase the time between pulls
<Xogium>
tbf I personally ignore the twitter bot because I just don't get how twitter works and there are sometimes so many mentions you don't even see the message itself
<IgorPec>
it relays if @armbian is in the tweet i think
<Werner>
concentrate on the tinyurl link at the end of a message. That brings you to the tweet itself ;)
<Werner>
IgorPec yes and if armbian is mentioned by somebody
<IgorPec>
this is generally good, but when a "twitter chat" is initiated, like this latest, things are not that nice anymore
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<Werner>
Much better Unit193, thanks :)
<Unit193>
Werner: I'm so sorry, I ran the commands too quickly so they ran together!
<Werner>
No worries, mate
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<ArmbianTwitter>
@WEBTECHNOLOGIS (Ary de Oliveira): Rock Pi 4 Plus SBC gets Rockchip OP1 processor, eMMC flash pre-loaded with Twister OS Armbian - CNX Software https://t.co/ImTkaf1jCe via @cnxsoft https://tinyurl.com/yhchv74k (3.4h ago)
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<lanefu>
Yeah i think of twitterbot can differentiate between @armbian as a reply target vs armbian in the body of the tweet we'll be good
<lanefu>
It's clearly useful. I wouldn't have known about that htop exploit that i was upset aboit being tweeted 🤦♂️
<Werner>
This in combination with a recurring schedule
<Werner>
current setup
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<IgorPec>
lanefu: good morning ... i had to reboot vms on beast ... can you add access the-going
<lanefu>
Werner: okay yeah looks like just a slight tweak to our query and we're good
<lanefu>
somethign like tsearch -new armbian -to:armbian
<lanefu>
the -to:armbian should filter out replies
<Werner>
tsearch (every 30 seconds, next run in 8 seconds): "echo [tweety tsearch --num 1 --searchtype recent --nort --new armbian]"
<Werner>
twitter (every 30 seconds, next run in 8 seconds): "echo [tweety twitter --new armbian]"
<Werner>
Another solution would be to simply announce twitter feed in a seperate channel. All who are interested in being up to date can join there
<Werner>
Over there it could be allowed to spam even more :P
<lanefu>
but then who will epathize when i get angry
<lanefu>
but yeah i guess we could have an armbian-feeds.. i mean i don't really want more spam..
<lanefu>
IgorPec: do you have the-goings key by any chance?
<Werner>
We could shove it in #armbian-rss to the forums feed...
<Xogium>
btw if you want to, you could register armbian as an official project on libera, that would you request for the entire #armbian-* channel namespace
<Xogium>
*that would let you
<Werner>
That is what I did before I even started with anything else
<Xogium>
ah !
<IgorPec>
lanefu: not yet, i said to provide one
<Xogium>
good
<Werner>
all our base belong to us :)
<Xogium>
perfect
<DarthGandalf>
Xogium: The #armbian namespace is registered to the Armbian project
<DarthGandalf>
from chanserv
<lanefu>
now we can have #armbian-nicod-fanclub
<Xogium>
lol
<Werner>
yeah ^^
<lanefu>
and #armbian-unsupported-unsupported-unsupported-tvboxes
<Xogium>
:D
<Werner>
and #armbian-tvboxes which will be muted all time since there aren't any :)
<Werner>
*supported
<Xogium>
but yeah we could even isolate the channels like have one for community supported boards only
<Xogium>
random idea
<Werner>
Not worth the effort. About once a month somebody asks in IRC for help with tvbox...
<lanefu>
Xogium: it's a good idea, however we probably don't have the volume of conversation to need it yet
<Xogium>
that's fair
<lanefu>
IgorPec: k, so i'll add when he sends me a public key?
<ArmbianHelper>
AR-757 [Task] "Adding Rpi" reported by Igor Pecovnik at 2021-05-19. Status: To Do
<IgorPec>
and rpi fanboys :)
<Werner>
Didn't we have this discussion before?
<PPA>
#armbian-s905x3-tvboxes
<Werner>
#armbian-all-shitty-tvboxes :)
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<lanefu>
LOL
<lanefu>
so fuck it, support RPI
<lanefu>
lol
<lanefu>
just RPi4?
<lanefu>
and up?
<lanefu>
how LOW do we go
<IgorPec>
and up
<IgorPec>
haha
<IgorPec>
this was nicod idea and tonymac doesn't strongly opppose
<IgorPec>
so i added. still - i think we need some community involvement too see this happens
<lanefu>
yeah.. so... i need to eventualyl support grubefi for cloud images
<lanefu>
maybe we coudl by annoying and only support UEFI flashed RPIS :P
<lanefu>
could be supported under our "generic" image
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<c0rnelius>
You guys going the mainline route or just pull from the foundation? Mainline boots and what not but don't expect much magic from it.
<chewitt>
You need to track the foundation kernel
<chewitt>
RPi4 is not that far ahead of mainline, but it's ahead, and will be for a while yet
<chewitt>
this time around (meaning: lessons have been learnt since 2011/12) there is a serious upstreaming effort
<c0rnelius>
Considering the foundation probably forever ahead
<c0rnelius>
Some stuff like patching the broadcom module on the kernel is never going to make it into mainline.
<chewitt>
RaspiOS needs a 'stable' kernel, so like most bigger distros they have a natural urge to run an LTS release
<chewitt>
LibreELEC has a long-running relationship where we (with them) are on the bleeding edge
<chewitt>
they recognise that in the past they've stuck on stable kernels for too long; it makes bumping painful
<chewitt>
the "little and often" approach is long-term easier .. but it's a new habit to form
<chewitt>
as more and more stuff goes upstream, it gets easier
<chewitt>
they're sending refinements and bugfixes for things in many areas now; not "here's an entirely new driver"
<chewitt>
the RPi4 effort has moved a lot of functionality out of the broadcom firmware into kernel drivers
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<chewitt>
it's still there and won't ever truly go away.. but there is a deliberate effort "to do things the kernel way" rather than hoard functions in firmware
<chewitt>
the CM4 module is a big driver for things
<chewitt>
CM/CM3 were used by industrial partners, but not that widely
<c0rnelius>
I've never the effort made even in the past few months. Like eeprom actual works now :)
<[TheBug]>
IgorPec: so how much did they pay you :Z
<IgorPec>
who?
<[TheBug]>
better have been worth it ;Z
<IgorPec>
rpi fundation? ah, box of cash
<[TheBug]>
whomever got you to consider support for RPi
<c0rnelius>
never/noticed*
<chewitt>
CM4 is spawning lots of interesting devices that build [literally] on the Pi ecosystem .. so being as upstream and well supported as possible is the goal
<IgorPec>
well, i was never strongly agains. i just said i'll not do anything about
<[TheBug]>
uh huh, then came the box full of cash ;p
<IgorPec>
LOL
<IgorPec>
i will still not do anything
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<c0rnelius>
Using the foundation kernel on Bullseye and Mesa 20.3 (mesa compiled specific) you can get 1080p playback using mpv which is pretty nice. Although x265 stumbles.
<c0rnelius>
aarch64 of course.
<IgorPec>
we are looking for maintainers
<IgorPec>
c0rnelius interested?
* [TheBug]
hears crickets all the sudden
<c0rnelius>
IgorPec: I don't know... Sounds like work? :) I'll think about it. But i can say this its not worth running on buster, but you can get away with removing a lot of pi specific stuff by just dropping in the firmware and installing rpi-sys-mods, pi-bluetooth, userland and using the foundation kernel.
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<c0rnelius>
Well buster is fine if ur headless guy. Which I tend to be.
<IgorPec>
can't tell. know virtually nothing about pi specific stuff in this area
<IgorPec>
our build system builds whatever
<IgorPec>
buster, focal, hirsute, ...
<IgorPec>
just the board has to be brought in
<chewitt>
most of the media capabilities are still in the process of being upstreamed
<chewitt>
esp. ffmpeg
<IgorPec>
well, we can have both kernels as we do for odroids for example
<c0rnelius>
Honestly kernel wise its pretty simple if you use the foundation kernel. They provide all the overlays for you, just need to move them into place like you would the dtbs with the packaging patch.
<chewitt>
the kernel side is progressing well, but ffmpeg is still mostly out-of-tree while we (LE/RPiF) figure out how to implemented it all
<chewitt>
the V4L2 stateless stuff in ffmpeg is still in a cat-herding state
<IgorPec>
well, thos ffmpeg troubles are later. i think we provide kernel as is, job done
<IgorPec>
at least from my perspective
<chewitt>
LE puts a lot of effort into ensuring what's in images is stable .. because 85% of our total userbase has RPi hardware
<chewitt>
So "track LE branches" isn't a terrible suggestion
<chewitt>
LE10 is using the foundation 5.10 branch for now .. has about 20k active installs on it
<chewitt>
There are another ~50k RPi4 users still running on the 4.19 kernel we used for LE9.2
<chewitt>
the remainder are on RPi3/2/1/0 hardware .. mostly RPi3
<chewitt>
LE didn't release LE10 images for RPi3 and older yet as there are still hardware drivers/features missing
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<chewitt>
e.g. no hardware deinterlace (lots of users run DVB setups)
<chewitt>
and the s/w HEVC support will be really (really) hard to replicate under V4L2
<chewitt>
it depends upon lots of super low-level optimisations and tricks that will never get past kernel/ffmpeg devs
<chewitt>
and the goal is to upstream and not hoard 100k LOC patches downstream (as we've done in the past)
<buZz>
who is LE?
<buZz>
oh
<buZz>
that kodi distro
<f476>
libreelec
<f476>
use librelec many year ago on rpi1, now switch to khadas vim1 and coreelec
<c0rnelius>
One problem with building custom pi imgs for focal and hirsute is they already have existing packages for pi related stuff that pulls in shit you don't want on an Armbian img. So some things need to be blacklisted. Its kind of a pain.
<c0rnelius>
On Debian/Devuan its way easier manage.
<stipa>
bold move regarfing spi support
<stipa>
regarding rpi*
<stipa>
we can't say anything bad about rpi anymore, bummer
<stipa>
maybe intel could take it's place
<c0rnelius>
I already make custom pi images and I still talk shit :) I believe we are free to have an opinion.
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<stipa>
there sure won't be nice words while trying to pair armbian and rpi together
<c0rnelius>
Really its just the kernel and a few bits of extra stuff. userland mostly and some services. Can even just include all the boot binaries into the kernel deb its self using the packaging patch.
<c0rnelius>
Now making a worth while desktop, thats a whole other ball game.
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<ArmbianBridge>
[freenode] <cheakoirccloud> I still don't have enough to make a form post, it wouldn't be much more than "it doesn't work". I have been using the previous kernel with no success. Looking into systemd config, maybe an upgrade change some of the options.