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<twb>
Dumb question: can a RV64GC system execute stuff compiled for RV32IMAC?
<twb>
In the same way x86-64 can run IA32 stuff
<enthusi>
no it can not
<enthusi>
they are independent ISAs though technically you could try to write assembly such that it executes for both
<enthusi>
with proper stackpointer sizes and a couple of shift instructions need attention
<twb>
Thanks
<twb>
The context was a long discussion in #systemd about SystemCallArchitectures= which allows a daemon to say "I promise I'll never legitimate try to run 32-bit code on a 64-bit system -- if I do, please kill me"
<twb>
And I was thinking "I wonder if this becomes a non-problem when aarch64 and x86-64 and powerpc64 all die and glorious RV is all there is"
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<leah2>
related question: are there riscv chips that can run 64- and 32-bit code?
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<sorear>
It's an optional feature but I've yet to see anyone implement it
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<rjek>
Normally you'd only do that for a while to provide a migration path: Arm, for example, are throwing away support for 32 bit supervisor mode in their latest designs
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<sorear>
with riscv mentality systems are as likely to migrate in either direction, which changes the motivations somewhat
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<jrtc27>
until 32-bit riscv linux is a real thing that people should actually care about and not just a curiosity in the nommu and hobbyist spaces there is zero need to support running rv32 binaries on rv64, both hardware and software-wise
<jrtc27>
(with my freebsd hat on we have no support for rv32 in any form and no plans to ever add it as we don't see it as a good idea, but if someone comes along and wants to put that effort in then we won't say no, subject to code quality and maintenance concerns as usual of course)
<jrtc27>
the only real reason I can see to support rv32-on-rv64 is for if you want big rv64 build boxes to be able to build native rv32 binaries, i.e. if the rv32 linux ecosystem is big enough that distros start wanting to support it
<jrtc27>
I do not see that ever happening, 32-bit is not suitable for generic distributions in 2021
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<GenTooMan>
true debian is debating weather to discontinue 386 support for example. Still a lot of 32 bit systems out their mostly ARM however.
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<winterflaw>
wine needs 386 too, right?
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<geist>
not necessarily, i wouldn't think
<geist>
it would if you wanted to run a 32bit windows app, but then it's basically the same thing: you need x86-32 support to run x86-32 code (without emulation). but that's distinctly different from the riscv case where there's no body of backwards compatibility to deal with
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<jrtc27>
yeah i386 (really, i686 these days) is a bit of a special case because of the huge volume of 32-bit binaries that have no 64-bit version, either because you don't have access to the source or the source never supported it (though x32 could work as a solution to that...)
<jrtc27>
32-bit windows apps need some amount of 32-bit wine stuff but that doesn't mean you need a full i386 distro
<jrtc27>
and in fact given you can run wine for 32-bit windows on 64-bit-only macOS these days you could likely do similar things on linux (maybe it even does?)
<jrtc27>
old 32-bit linux apps, which basically means games to most people, are then the only remaining issue
<jrtc27>
but those can similarly be solved in various ways by shipping a runtime environment for them
<jrtc27>
none of those need your kernel, gnome, apt, whatever to be 32-bit
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<jimwilson>
32-bit RISC-V linux is real, but only in the embedded space, 32-bit desktop makes very little sense, open embedded has 32-bit RISC-V linux support, and apparently Gentoo is still thinking about adding 32-bit RISC-V linux support as it is still on their web page
<jrtc27>
is that with an mmu though?
<jrtc27>
I struggle to see how you can have a full MSU core with paging and not be ok with 64-bit integers...
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<jrtc27>
and, well, gentoo gonna gentoo :)
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<winterflaw>
yeah - I'm inclined to see support for old apps being an emulation problem, not a direct support problem
<jrtc27>
and as time goes on ABIs will break and you'll need old packages *anyway*
<jrtc27>
that's already the case with libstdc++ for some things, see also ncurses
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<sorear>
rv32 and rv64 isn't about "old apps" because they're contemporaries
<sorear>
human body uses ~100 W which requires personal computers and "pets" to be in the same ballpark; a 10 W machine today will have enough RAM to need 64 bits, so there's very little reason for a person to have 1:1 control over a rv32 machine
<sorear>
but 1:many situations are still possible in several ways
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<sorear>
granted many of those ways come down to "internet of things" and you may not be interested in enabling that phenomenon even incidentally
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<jimwilson>
Andes sells rv32 chips that can run linux, and I think that they contributed some of the linux kernel rv32 support
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<jimwilson>
an ILP32 on rv64 ABI (like MIPS n32 or x86_64 x32) would eliminate some of the justification for rv32, since lp64 code needs more memory than ilp32 code, and some people really care about memory size, but that will be a lot of work
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<dh`>
there's still quite a lot of software that doesn't work if build as 64-bit
<dh`>
s/build/built/
<dh`>
most of it is old semi-legacy stuff like scheme compilers, but it's not uncommon
<dh`>
also there's no reason to build most of /usr/bin as 64-bit binaries, it's just a waste of memory