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* Nistur
yawns
<Nistur>
mornin' all
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<abu[7]>
Cheers Nistur
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<Nistur>
hey hey abu[7] :) How's it going?
<abu[7]>
Thanks, good :)
<Nistur>
I once again have more (potential) problems where I look at them and go "huh. That would make sense in Picolisp" :D So I'm dipping toes in again
<Nistur>
I'm also looking at more physical Penti projects :D
<abu[7]>
Surely a good idea ;
<abu[7]>
I completely stopped using Penti, because of problems wit t
<abu[7]>
th my ana
<abu[7]>
hand
<Nistur>
That sucks :(
<abu[7]>
indeed
<abu[7]>
I'm using StenoBoard now
<abu[7]>
I have a Dupuytren-Kontraktur
<Nistur>
I haven't used my physical one, because I designed it to be used at hip level - when I was sitting on a bed with MiniNisturette sleeping beside me... but if you put it on a desk, it's the wrong angle and very tiring :(
<abu[7]>
right
<Nistur>
that sucks :(
<abu[7]>
Steno is a lot more relaxing
<abu[7]>
needs just one finger
<Nistur>
ok :)
<abu[7]>
Perhaps not meaningful to build in hardware though
<abu[7]>
or not possible
<abu[7]>
Penti is potentionally faster perhaps
<abu[7]>
but not as relaxing
<Nistur>
my physical problems are not currently affecting my hands, so I guess I'm lucky
<Nistur>
I'm sorry to hear about your hand though :(
<abu[7]>
No big problem
<abu[7]>
I can live with it
<Nistur>
So... mind if I waffle about my (on topic!) project ideas? :P
<abu[7]>
please go ahead
<Nistur>
Ok... so the most on-topic one, the Picolisp project :P I have a personal website, and cgit running to host my various projects. I do _not_ have any kind of comment form, or the ability to provide feedback... because... dealing with user input seems like something I, in general, don't want to have to deal with. The site itself is statically generated, no database, no javascript (I think I technically
<Nistur>
have goatcounter in the footer, but I'm going to remove that when I remember to) I want to keep it like that... buuuuuuuuuut I have some projects where it would be nice if I could get _some_ feedback... so I was looking into minimalist issue trackers... but everything has too many bells and/or whistles... I don't need 99% of what they provide... so I'm thinking I may see if I can implement a very minimal
<Nistur>
issue tracker in picolisp, and see how I can allow user input - I don't want it to be totally open for... obvious reasons, but the "dream" is tht I can put enough safeguards on to catch/block/filter almost all spam and allow anonymous posting... a combination of hidden fields that bots would automagically fill in, filtering on lots of keywords, and blocking links, and rate limiting, _miiiiight_ be
<Nistur>
enough... maybe... or allow SSO from other services, but then it'd be a case of chosing which services and that's a pain in the neck I don't want to have to deal with...
<Nistur>
the actual issue tracker functionality seems... fairly straightforward
<Nistur>
maybe. I will certainly look into it and "borrow" bits :D
<abu[7]>
full text indexing etc
<Nistur>
the "dream" is that it reads the cgitrc and will create projects based on the repositories in that
<abu[7]>
ok
<Nistur>
it's a fairly straightforward config file structure, so it should be easy enough to do
<Nistur>
but we'll see
<Nistur>
I've just been tinkering with this idea last night :P not really made much progress yet
<abu[7]>
I would start with the DB model
<abu[7]>
E/R
<Nistur>
yeah
<Nistur>
So, the other project is penti-related :P I also have some... medical problems. I have managed to acquire a spine that feels like it tries to kill me every few months. Bandscheibenvorfall. Loads of fun. One of the problems there is that I do spend a lot more time horizontal to deal with it... and typing on a laptop like that is not so easy and I hate typing on touchscreen... so I was thinking of building
<Nistur>
a cyberdeck, probably not overly large... but if I can basically have it so you can hold it like a candy-bar games console (Game Boy Advance, Playstation Portable, Steam Deck etc etc etc) and then have buttons under every finger, I can set it up to be a penti keyboard on one hand, and maybe macros on the other
<abu[7]>
oh, sounds not good
<Nistur>
most of the time it's fine
<Nistur>
just sometimes it's not :)
<abu[7]>
:(
<Nistur>
so yeah... those are the two... relevant projects right now :)
<Nistur>
I've been getting better at completing projects, so they _might_ actually get made
<Nistur>
like... writing a simple BASH CI tool for my server, because I decided Jenkins etc was too big https://git.nistur.co.uk/simpleci/tree/simpleci.sh - it just watches git repositories, and if one updates, it will build it for me - it's how I build and deploy my website :P
<abu[7]>
Cool, just ask if we can help somehow
<beneroth>
heeeeeeey Nistur !
<beneroth>
Nistur, web app: nice idea, I definitely can help you in that area. Same advice as abu[7], start with data structures first.
<beneroth>
cyberdeck: sooo cool project, I want updates and pics if you come around to work on it =D
<beneroth>
BASH CI tool: maybe rewrite it into picolisp just as a training thing? or maybe not, you've got probably enough other ideas :)
<beneroth>
Nistur, nice having you around <3
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<abu[7]>
Hi beneroth!
<beneroth>
<3 abu[7]
<Nistur>
aaahahhhhhit's beneroth!
<Nistur>
I was considering rewriting 'simpleci' in picolisp, buuuuut like you said, I've got enough other projects. It functions, and does so fairly smoothly, so I'm just going to leave it as it is :)
<beneroth>
:)
<Nistur>
the cyberdeck has a pre-project project... basically, when it comes to electronics, I'm _very_ rusty... the last thing I tried to which wasn't just soldering a handful of wires, but actually making something _functional_ was making a monitor switch for my Atari ST - just three 13 pin DIN sockets, and a switch which toggled, I think 6 of the lines between two of them... and I wired up the sockets backwards
<Nistur>
sooooo... my first project in the cyberdeck project path is not the cyberdeck, but to make a benchtop power supply - it's a boring thing I could just buy... I already have one (two if you count the weird ATX hack I made years ago) but this is to practice electronics design, and... well... the power supply has a purpose too with the cyberdeck design...
<Nistur>
I'll probably see if I can get a display and design around that soon... because I guess I should iterate on the case design soonish
<Nistur>
otherwise it'll never get started :D
<bjorkintosh>
cyberdeck.
<bjorkintosh>
Nistur: are you a Stafford Beer fan?
<beneroth>
maybe he read the cyberpunk founding classic "Neuromancer"
<beneroth>
yeah I know about it, one of the most important "kybernetik" projects... unfortunately aborted before the interesting stuff happened
<Nistur>
I've read Neuromancer, yes
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<beneroth>
I guess it could have worked better than politbureau central planning, but still worse than the distributed-local-agent-approach of free market
<beneroth>
Nistur, man of culture!
<Nistur>
... just reading about Cybersyn...
<Nistur>
ahh, yes I know this
<Nistur>
no, nothing to do with that :P
<Nistur>
It's just because I want a usable portable computer, smaller than a laptop, but with actual usable buttons
<bjorkintosh>
the central planning system only worked because there were gulags to be sent to.
<Nistur>
I used to have a Psion Series 5
<beneroth>
why not VR/AR ?
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: not enough software!
<Nistur>
I did VR development for a few years... eh... I like it but...
<beneroth>
Nistur, Psion makes me miss my N900 :((((
<bjorkintosh>
VR is a very barren planet.
<Nistur>
not quite what I want... for one thing I want to use this on the go
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, T
<Nistur>
and while some people might be comfortable using their Apple Vision Whatever on the move, I wouldn't
<beneroth>
Nistur, if your spine nerves get anyway fucked, you can also go all-in and try matrix interfaces :P
<Nistur>
yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to that
<beneroth>
your response is darker than my joke o.0
<beneroth>
at least we have better food
<Nistur>
I'm a fan of Warhammer 40,000 too, so before Musk went... more crazy, I used to joke about getting his personal email address so I could plead for a seat on a ship to Mars, so I could join the Mechanicum
<beneroth>
hehe, good one!
<beneroth>
same.. though I always preferred the high-tech elves...
<bjorkintosh>
Nistur: just tweat @racist_asshole_mankind_destroyer and you'll get a hold of him.
<bjorkintosh>
sorry. my keyboard glitched there.
<beneroth>
dancing on the edge between discipline and madness
<Nistur>
I am a fan of 40k, but I've not played since 2006... and only ever had two armies... both of them were Eldar
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<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, Apple keyboard? same as the voice recognition?
<beneroth>
Nistur, haha, same :D
<bjorkintosh>
hahaha
<bjorkintosh>
sorta.
<beneroth>
phonetic similarity, that's just how it is
<beneroth>
some semantic similarities too
<beneroth>
though today it smells more stalinist
<beneroth>
it's so sad not even the memes are good :(
<beneroth>
rick42, still alive?
<Nistur>
about the AR side... I do kiiiiiinda have a plan for an AR thing for the cyberdeck... but to get something like that working is... definitely better in extension territory. Off the shelf solutions are too bulky and too expensive...
<bjorkintosh>
Off the shelf is a good start.
<Nistur>
closest to what I want from off the shelf is Google Glass...
<bjorkintosh>
Nistur: what will this device let you do that you cannot do at the moment?
<Nistur>
which device?
<Nistur>
the cyberdeck?
<bjorkintosh>
yes
<Nistur>
I basically just want it as a portable mini-PC... right now I have a little netbook thing that I throw in my bag, but it's... less than ideal. It's running a 32 bit Linux distro because it's really awkward hardware (couldn't get any 64 bit distro to boot... I keep meaning to go through and "fix" that... but it's so old now that it's not _really_ worth the effort)
<Nistur>
so just a small computer that I can easily carry with me and use when on the move, when on public transport, when sitting on a bench in the words... and the more recent thing... when lying on my back unable to really use a laptop
<Nistur>
that's why I want to add a Penti keyboard to it, so I can just hold it and type away, without needing to rest it on my lap...
<bjorkintosh>
oh I see.
<bjorkintosh>
do you perform a lot of computations on the go?
<Nistur>
I have a lot of ideas on the go, and I hate using my phone to note them down... and it doesn't allow me to _really_ test out programming ideas
<bjorkintosh>
i'm a fan of pen and paper.
<Nistur>
pen and paper doesn't have a compiler
<bjorkintosh>
it doesn't have to. an OCR can snort it all up and dump it somewhere with a compiler I think.
<Nistur>
with my handwriting? :D
<bjorkintosh>
training.
<Nistur>
that seems like more hassle than just making a portable computer :P
<bjorkintosh>
that's one interpretation.
<bjorkintosh>
much less hardware.
<bjorkintosh>
you could use APL notation as shorthand.
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: have you played around with APL or J at all?
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, Stephens setup is interesting, but doesn't beat abu[7] (just typing with one finger on his smartphone to program, whenever and wherever)
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: abu[7] > SW.
<abu[7]>
For me, the best "portable" is my Pixel Fold with Termux and StenoBoard
<Nistur>
I definitely want to build a portable computer... I've got no idea how likely it is that I finish this project... but I want to... I don't know how small I can get it... I would _like_ to use a Raspberry Pi Compute Module, because that would allow for it to be upgraded, and is smaller than a Pi... buuuuut like I said my electronics skills need brushing up... if I can make it small enough, I was
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<Nistur>
considering making a compartment for a small paper notepad with it anyway :P
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, no. when I looked into it, I was repelled by the amount of hyroglyphs
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: they're not hyroglyphs at all! hahaa. each glyph is essentially a function which can be monadic, or dyadic.
<beneroth>
Nistur, smart ring with using abu[7]'s steno for inputs? :P
<Nistur>
smart ring?
<bjorkintosh>
xFy <-- dyadic. Fx <-- monadic. or in lithp (F x y) and (F x).
<beneroth>
same thing as smart watches, just as ring. sometimes no screen. yeah it's apparently a thing. I mean, if you like it small....
<bjorkintosh>
but I'm sure you already knew.
<Nistur>
ahh, my sister in law has one that measures heart rate etc
<beneroth>
maybe you need multiple smart rings with a tiny wlan or something, to get enough computing power together?
<beneroth>
you could call them thanos rings or something
<Nistur>
smart ring cluster :D
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, I'm not sure if I ever understood the terminology. So you say "monadic" means the same as "unary operator" in C++, a function taking a single argument?
<bjorkintosh>
absolutely.
<bjorkintosh>
like sqrt of a number.
<bjorkintosh>
(sqrt x)
<Nistur>
one idea I did have, which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the wishlist, so far it's probably maybe 3 or 4 lifetimes away... is to make input gloves, with IMUs on the backs of the hands, and bend sensors on the fingers, so I could set up a penti keyboard with a single glove, and could type just by wiggling your fingers :D
<beneroth>
sounds like eloquent lisp cells
<bjorkintosh>
a little bit.
<bjorkintosh>
both creators of lisp and apl were mathematicians, after all.
<beneroth>
well some of them were the same persons afaik
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, thanks for explanation! can you also do "monoid" for me?
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: hahaha. nope.
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<bjorkintosh>
that's terra incognita. and thankfully, most useful programs do not depend on Haskell (die haskell, die!)
* bjorkintosh
hisses
<Nistur>
I tinkered a bit with haskell when I ran xmonad
<beneroth>
Nistur, haha, yeah input gloves are a classic. I remember Mickey Mouse comics from 1999 or so which prophezised they will become a big thing by 2005.
<bjorkintosh>
I'd think a thigh board would be better. something strapped to your thighs that you can tap at with one or two hands while in motion
<beneroth>
Nistur, a friend of a friend worked a long time on some as a personal project (also years ago already), I think he complained about a lack of (affordable) tiny sensors and tiny motors (to give force feedback)
<bjorkintosh>
make you look like you're in a rave.
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, Haskell started making sense to me when I learned it's a research language used to research language design
<Nistur>
yeaaaah, I looked into the sensors, and they're not cheap :D
<Nistur>
I looked into ways to make them yourself and... they're not good :D
<beneroth>
I mean, I like over-specifying stuff, but I guess they took it too far for the general computation use case..
<Nistur>
that's pretty much why it's so far down the wishlist... it's the kind of thing I'd love to make, but I think it's not really feasible
<beneroth>
Nistur, yeah, that was my colleagues story, too
<beneroth>
though he really invested a lot of time into it (maybe also money, dunno. He lived cheap and optimized for free time...for his researches)
<Nistur>
anyway, time to head home
<bjorkintosh>
Nistur: hall effect sensors aren't terribly costly are they?
<beneroth>
get home well. and I wish you the best for spine recovery
<Nistur>
might work on some cyberdeck CAD tonight, or on Atari Jaguar development, or writing up a tabletop RPG ruleset, or any one of a million other projects I have on the go :D
<Nistur>
beneroth: thanks
<Nistur>
bjorkintosh: not too costly, but setting them up to work reliably in this situation is more difficult I think - was a long time since I looked into it
<Nistur>
anyway
<beneroth>
Nistur, awesome! otherwise just come here and we can talk BS :)
* Nistur
disappears
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, (interesting, hall sensors, I always learn something when I read you) yeah I guess they get easily interfered with from other sources?
<abu[7]>
o/
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: one can isolate them a bit.
* beneroth
is curious, how much is bjorkintosh investing into applying besides all the researching he obviously does?
<bjorkintosh>
It was just the first thing that came to mind, so it could be wrong.
<beneroth>
no idea
<bjorkintosh>
beneroth: hahahaa.
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh ;-)
<bjorkintosh>
well. I think therefore I'm clearly not.
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh you are aware, it's a trade-off. there should be some balance.
<bjorkintosh>
absolutely.
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, hahaha, wise
<bjorkintosh>
de{vil, tails}~ as usual.
<beneroth>
I think abu[7] managed that trade-off pretty exemplary!
<beneroth>
bjorkintosh, just too many of them! as if the analog world determines their number depending on your zoom level!
<beneroth>
insolent fractals!
<beneroth>
abu[7], my impression is you have never taken many wrong turns? I still find myself learning seemingly too much in hindsight, which sometimes requires extra backpaddling efforts
<abu[7]>
I think I took many wrong terms
<beneroth>
in software designs?
<abu[7]>
Yes
<abu[7]>
Just forgot them quickly
<beneroth>
soothing
<beneroth>
ah, that's probably a very good thing
<beneroth>
sometimes a bit harder when I have to maintain old sins because the opportunity for cleaning it up is not available yet
<beneroth>
(no biggies... just.. kinda very annoying?)
<abu[7]>
Better clean up immediately, yes
<beneroth>
obviously, yeah.
<abu[7]>
One example for a big wrong turn is the global struct of our BTG messe system
<abu[7]>
Split off "core"
<abu[7]>
I was persuaded
<abu[7]>
despite I felt it is not a good idea
<beneroth>
so the split in multiple databases? or the even bigger decentral with one database on each mobile client?
<abu[7]>
You know, the "pils" DBs
<beneroth>
so whos idea was it?
<abu[7]>
Klaus Pauluschke
<abu[7]>
the offline usage
<beneroth>
so the client had an idea for the database system architecture?
<abu[7]>
Nobody really needs it
<beneroth>
right
<abu[7]>
Not on that level
<abu[7]>
but the use case
<beneroth>
ok.. they simply don't need it, because they are not as often offline during work was expected?
<beneroth>
or because it has issues? e.g. with merging?
<abu[7]>
It works fine
<abu[7]>
but the concepts
<abu[7]>
too complicated
<abu[7]>
for such seldom use
<beneroth>
so no functional issues, but over-engineered complex distributed system which costs overhead in maintenance?
<beneroth>
that's the issue?
<abu[7]>
So the currenr version hat only read-oely PILs
<abu[7]>
I'll explain in next meeting ;)
<abu[7]>
Must hurry
<abu[7]>
bbl
<beneroth>
I still think about similar architectures, both for offline/detached use, and for distributing write load (instead of the global db lock bottleneck - which in practice never was one so far)
<beneroth>
kk, cu later, take care :)
<abu[7]>
☺
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<Nistur>
So huh. This little netbook thing can't seem to run picolisp any more
<Nistur>
it... used to
<Nistur>
well, it does
<Nistur>
but if I try the simple html hello world, it gives ht:Pack -- Undefined
<Nistur>
I wonder how I broke it
<Nistur>
note: this thing is still on 32 bit, so it's running an old version of pil
<Nistur>
I was hoping it would still work, so I could start hacking on it :(
<Nistur>
works on my server. Do I do it live? :D
<beneroth>
ht:Pack is an additional pil library
<beneroth>
maybe you haven't compiled the ht library
<beneroth>
32bit - so C version, not even pil64? that's really old :D
<Nistur>
it _used_ to work
<Nistur>
I Remember tinkering on this laptop before
<Nistur>
the CPU _is_ 64 bit, but I failed to install a 64 bit OS on it
<beneroth>
in the @lib dir within picolisp dir there should be two executables, "ext" and "ht", those are libraries (implemented in C for picolisp)
<beneroth>
maybe they are missing?
<Nistur>
the only distro that would install and wouldn't just kernel panic was Ubuntu 12.04 or something, and only the 32 bit one
<Nistur>
I updated it to 19.04
<Nistur>
(it may have started as 14.04, I don't remember)
<beneroth>
they are built by makeAll from @src/ht.c and @src/ext.c
<Nistur>
at some point I'm going to back up all stuff on it, and then just see if I can make it more useful, and install a 64 bit distro
<beneroth>
yeah Ubuntu major upgrades are nowadays often breaking things...
<Nistur>
beneroth: they are there
<beneroth>
you (the picolisp process) has permissions to execute those binaries in @lib?
<Nistur>
yup
<beneroth>
what does the "file" command return on them (in bash), ELF 32-bit shared object?
<Nistur>
ELF 32-bit LSB pie executable
<Nistur>
anyway
<beneroth>
the "ht" library are a few functions used in http processing from picolisp, they're compiled for performance and easy-of-programming reasons (handling byte processing stuff, char encoding/decoding, url encoding/decoding, http chunked content type, etc)
<Nistur>
time to read a book to MiniNisturette
<Nistur>
will tinker later
<beneroth>
good
<beneroth>
something from Terry Prattchet?
<Nistur>
a little too young for that still
<Nistur>
but sooooooooon
<abu[7]>
MiniNisturette is the second Nisturette, right?