klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<PapaFrog> Is there any SBC that you would recommend for beginning os development?
<PapaFrog> os kernel development, I should say.
<Mutabah> PapaFrog: I'd suggest `qemu` first :)
<Mutabah> Don't have much expirence with SBCs (I have a couple of older pis, but never tried osdev on them - the early pi was too quirky to be worth it)
<PapaFrog> I wonder how hard the beaglebone would be.
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<immibis_> they're all using the same barely documented SBCs, so not sure how much it matters
<immibis_> SOCs* and not all exactly the same, but they're all as poorly documented and locked behind NDAs
<immibis_> i should start using quassel on my desktop so it won't show me logging in and out
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<klys> if you mean beaglebone black, you'd be coding for the "legacy powervr sgx 530" gpu. with the original beaglebone, you just have an arm cortex a8 cpu (which a fair amount of work has been done for), and no gpu. both boards use a similar cpu, though the bb.black has considerably more ram and ships with debian.
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<klys> otoh, it seems in retrospect that the beaglev was cancelled and it's somewhat sketchy when there will ever be one. for a riscv board that runs linux there's the nezha (usb2), starfive visionfive, visionfive 2 (has a gpu, and it appears the conclusive engineering rchd-pf (with onboard fpga: 254k logic elements). for a more popular fpga, I've been condidering the "ulx3s with ecp5 85f" which has 84k look up
<klys> tables (lut's)
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<klys> the trouble with getting an sbc more recently in my experience has been not finding a heat sink similar to this one for such boards: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fyYAAOSwQTZjyVSs/s-l500.jpg
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<Jari--> Anyone have experience on SLIP device, setting up a SLIP server?
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<Jari--> SL0 should come up, I think this is a mandatory requirement
<Jari--> Do I need to link SLIP to the kernel?
<Jari--> I think this is a mandatory requirement as well.
<geist> hmm dunno. i should look into that some day though
<geist> would be useful to know how to generally wire up a SLIP connection
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<kazinsal> SLIP's kind of annoying because it uses in-band signalling that requires you to rewrite packets
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<Mutabah> This is disturbing, I found an old backup with copies of my first OS project... https://github.com/thepowersgang/legacy-acess For all to "enjoy"
<bslsk05> ​thepowersgang/legacy-acess - LEGACY: A repository containing a snapshot of my original OS project (0 forks/1 stargazers)
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<dinkelhacker> The usage of camel case is the only distrubing thing here ;) (y)
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<Mutabah> Scanning through the code, young me wasn't that bad of a programmer
<zid> Yea it isn't terrible at all
<zid> some weird formatting choices that it then doesn't stay consistent with
<Mutabah> It was my first real project, and I think was about a three year project?
<zid> If you went over this for a few hours fixing a bunch of the whitespace damage it'd be pretty presentable
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<Mutabah> Why do that when `acess2` exists, with all the fancy bells and whistles :)
<zid> would be fairly decent to just throw at people if they ask for something easy to look at
<Mutabah> actually... it's tempting, I might do that next time I'm bored
<heat> clang-format it all
<Mutabah> heat: Bold of you to assume clang would like this code :D
<Mutabah> iirc it was mainly built with djgpp
<heat> oooooooooooooooooooooof
<heat> fwiw I think clang-format also works without clangd support?
<Ermine> Yeeeaaaaah I fixed a bug in minix
<dinkelhacker> speaking of clang-format. does anybody know a similar thing for assembly (arm)
<heat> no
<heat> Ermine, what is it
<zid> doing it yourself for assembly should be a nice easy task
<zid> ignore lines starting with . or ending with :, then just left justify the first token of everything else
<Ermine> heat: ext2 driver mmap'ed some space to read superblock, but mmap is lazy, so no physical space was allocated. ATA driver then tried to get physical address of superblock buffer and failed
<Ermine> So ext2 failed to mount partition.
<nikolar> Mutabah: whtat's acess2 like
<nikolar> Ermine: oof
<dinkelhacker> zid: i know i know... i get by with vimreplace but maybe there was a tool I don't know^^
<heat> Ermine, huh
<zid> have you considered just not writing it with bad formatting to begin with?
<heat> sounds like a poorly designed DMA subsystem
<zid> That's what the rest of us do
<Mutabah> nikolar: Sufficiently working network and terminal to be able to ssh and use irssi
<Ermine> heat: there is a newer kernel call to translate addresses which triggers page faults and actual allocation instead of failing
<dinkelhacker> zid: yeah right so why does clang-format even exist?
<Mutabah> So... a LOT better than the original
<nikolar> Mutabah: oh that's quite good
<nikolar> i started working on my project using stivale2
<Ermine> with a lot of help from actual minix dev I made IDE driver to use this kernel call while doing DMA
<Mutabah> Iirc I had a custom irc client too, but the network stack wasn't quite stable enough for it to be full useful
<dinkelhacker> zid: it's more like that I keep changing my mind about how I want it to look
<heat> dinkelhacker, but assembly formatting really isn't that deep
<nikolar> and took a break from it for a while for various reasons and when i got back to it i found out limine removed stivale2 support
<nikolar> so i have to rewrite all of bootloader code
<heat> you have directives, labels, instructions
<nikolar> or rather code that works with bootloader
<dinkelhacker> heat: true^^
<heat> usually the only formatting you want is everything left-justified and then instructions with a tab
<heat> you /can/ establish rules like "align all insn operands with tabs"
<heat> and in that case, glhf
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Onyx/image.S at f48e620fbdbcba663a423f4b4af80d322ad8849a · heatd/Onyx · GitHub
<heat> yeah?
<dinkelhacker> If you had the asm formatter I am dreaming of those lines whould be correctly indented >D
<heat> that's a \t vs " " problem
<heat> for some reason it copied some tabs from the OG file?
<heat> the editor should handle it, dunno why it does not
<dinkelhacker> just kidding^^
<bslsk05> ​sourceware.org: [PATCH] x86-64: Restore LD_PREFER_MAP_32BIT_EXEC support [BZ #28656]
<heat> big funny
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<mjg> heat: how does one end up with .text spanning more than 2G
<mjg> now that iwrote it, i guess jit?
<heat> mjg, jit, dynamic linking
<heat> by far the worst is dynamic linking
<heat> i.e ELF at 0x400000 and dynamic libraries at 0x7ffffffff....
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<heat> mjg, the dynamic linking thing is actually a major issue, unless you compile everything with default PIE
<heat> which you may not want to for maximum throughput, etc
<mrvn> not if you are running on an i386, whioch nobody does.
<heat> PIE still has overhead on x86_64
<mrvn> less than all the side channel mitigations
<heat> ok?
<heat> weird point pal
<heat> "X has overhead, so you may want to disable it sometimes" "but it does not have overhead" "yes it does" "but Y also has overhead"
<gog> don't run programs problem solved
<mrvn> optimize the worst problem. PIE isn't.
* gog chomp pie
<Ermine> gog: may I pet you
<gog> no i angy
<mrvn> mjg: why don't you have mutliple executable segments? One (per lib) at 0x400000 and one at 0x7ffffffff....?
<Ermine> gog: woah what happened
<gog> it's blwoing snow outside and i have to go grocery shopping which means i cannot ride bus
<gog> or i could but the walk ends up being the same distance
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<Ermine> Uh
<Ermine> I guess it'll take the time to get streets cleared from snow
<gog> no i mean if i take the bus i have to either get off halfway home and go to the grocery store, or go past my home and go to another store
<gog> what's the point
<Ermine> unfortunate city planning
<zid> I have unfortunate gog planning
<gog> me too
<heat> gog, hop on your stupidly oversized american truck and get there ez
<heat> reject public transportation embrace TRUCK
<gog> money machine
* Ermine . o O (trucks from Mad Max)
<gog> that's bait
<Amorphia> don't forget to attach nutz to da TRUCK
<heat> trucknutz best american invention
<heat> oh wait PIE executables are also affected by this lmao
<heat> they're still miles off
<heat> 000055dfa597b000 vs 00007facbaa00000
<Ermine> heat: by trucks
<Ermine> ?
<heat> absolutely
<heat> by trucc nutz
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<ryzerth> Hi, I'm just getting into UEFI after a long time of doing normal BIOS bootloaders. I've done a few tests with premade "frameworks" (GNU-EFI and Posix-UEFI) but now I want to continue my loader from scratch. I've already defined the structs for the SystemTable and simple text output protocol. When I run an application that just returns instantly, it returns as expected without issues, showing that the PE is loaded and executed
<ryzerth> correctly. However, as soon as I try to do a basic hello world program that calls the text output protocol, the code hangs. The code is compiled using 64bit mingw (QEMU is also emulating a 64bit UEFI system with OVMF) directly to a PE with the subsystem set to 10 (UEFI Application, I can send the full list of argument if useful). Any idea what I'm doing wrong or how I could debug the issue on QEMU? Here is the code of the entry
<ryzerth> point, the system table definition and text proto definition (note that I've only definite the beginning of the struct for the text proto but since it's always a pointer to the struct it shouldn't matter for a quick test like this): https://pastebin.com/JadNZuby
<bslsk05> ​pastebin.com: // Note: Obviously this code doesn't compile as is, I just copy pasted the relev - Pastebin.com
<heat> fyi you don't need to pack your struct
<heat> you also have the EFIAPI in the wrong place, not sure if it makes a difference
<ryzerth> I expected that since it's always a multiple of 4 bytes but out of desperation I tried it anyway.
<ryzerth> And I tried both positions of EFIAPI the resulting assembly uses the correct calling convention in both cases
<heat> i would make sure your table pointers look sane first. __asm__ __volatile__(""::"A"(SystemTable)); or something
<heat> erm, __asm__ __volatile__("hlt"::"A"(SystemTable));
<zid> how amenable to debugging is this uefi stuff?
<mrvn> packed will destroy the alignment so it like breaks things.
<heat> then inspect your EAX reg
<heat> or maybe I have the wrong constraint here, not sure
<heat> anyway, you get the point. put it in a reg and hlt (make sure to hlt in a loop cuz interrupts) and info registers
<zid> that says to load it into A first yea
<heat> yeah but don't forget the loop or it will not work
<zid> assuming systemtable is a pointer that should work
<heat> yep
<heat> also replace u"lit" with L"lit"
<ryzerth> Alright trying that, just a sec
<mrvn> does EFI have a output function for utf-8 or ascii or just CHAR16?
<heat> UCS2 only
<ryzerth> it's char16
<ryzerth> I used u because apparently L"" can have different sizes
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<ryzerth> not used to wide char stuff ngl so could be wrong
<sham1> Dare I even ask whether UEFI specifies whether it has to be UCS2 with big endian or little endian, or is it even that it's architecture-specific
<sham1> Like the native endianness
<mrvn> don't you also need \r\n?
<heat> sham1, uefi only supports little endian
<sham1> Oh, eww, gross
<sham1> damn it microsoft
<sham1> damn it intel
<gog> little endian best endian
<heat> ryzerth, ah ok so it seems to work, u"" is probably correct
<zid> what's u"" from? C++ or does later C also have it?
<mrvn> heat: so what does ARM do?
<ryzerth> well \r\n would make it print nicely but if that's enough to crash UEFI that would be quite goofy
<gog> zid: L in C with -fshort-wchar if using gcc or clang without ms-extensions
<heat> zid, C11
<zid> ah I don't read that spec, you're lucky I read C99
<heat> mrvn, what does ARM do wrt what?
<zid> and I ignore everything that starts with w
<mrvn> heat: big endian ARM systems with EFI
<gog> why?
<heat> uefi is little endian only. ARM only runs on EFI in little endian
<heat> gog, because he doesn't like w(omen)
<zid> or wombats
<zid> fucking wombats
* mrvn really wants to set the big endian bit on ARM cpus, just because
<zid> gog: I've used a w function exactly once, and it was wcstombs or whatever it is, to turn a winapi string into a real string
<heat> sortie, if only they used MAXSI STRING
<zid> because for some reason the HID implementation only has a W variant for something
<gog> wide char string to multibyte string
<heat> ryzerth, anyway no \n will not crash EFI
<gog> \r\n
<heat> not OVMF at least, I bet AMI has a special firmware version that crashes on everything :v
<heat> gog, you don't need \r\n
<heat> just \n
<gog> u sure?
<heat> yeah
<sortiecat> heat, an elegant weapon from a more civilized time
<ryzerth> surprising considering microsoft had their say in it lol
<zid> HidD_GetProductString(f, wname, 256);
<zid> wcstombs(name, wname, 256);
<gog> i feel like i didn \n and it didn't return the cursor to column 0
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<mrvn> worst case it will just move one line down and keep going without carriage return
<zid> doesn't crash it though
<heat> ryzerth, the terminal replaces \n with \r\n
<heat> it's also this way in UNIX tty
<heat> you can explicitly disable all that crap and go back to needing \r\n everywhere
<mrvn> heat: but not in M$ land
<zid> Device 87b61843 plugged in
<zid> Device name: \\?\HID#VID_0E6F&PID_02B8&IG_00#8&14f8c348&0&0000#{4d1e55b2-f16f-11cf-88cb-001111000030}
<zid> DeviceName: Controller (XBOX One For Windows)
<zid> It's so I can do this
<heat> yes, also in MONEY$HIT LOSESUCKS
<heat> that's why printf("Hello WOrld\n"); also works
<zid> Is the capital O required
<heat> yes
<zid> Error: Your password must contain at least two characters who talk to each other about something other than a man.
<heat> everyone is confusing file endings with termainal newlines
<heat> terminal*
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<heat> guess what? windows also supports LF in many many places
<gog> the only line i want to feed is the one that picks me up
<sham1> Windows supports LF in many many places… assuming you do the stupid thing and open files in text mode, for example
<gog> i can't, its raw masculinity will cause me to wither and die
<heat> gog, truckpussy when??
<gog> trussy
<sham1> why
<gog> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<ryzerth> yeah ok it seems the given SystemTable pointer is null or something else is going wrong, been a while since I've done debugging with QEMU
<heat> because truck nuts
<heat> true gender equality is having one of each genitalia as a truck accessory
<zid> trucks already have a truckussy though
<zid> what you need is a truclitoris to adorn it
<heat> i've looked for it but I really can't find it
<zid> That's normal for a catholic male
<gog> somebody tell me why my vm allocator stopped working
<gog> everything is broken now
<zid> You slipped a null in
<gog> maybe
<gog> at least i got video scrolling working kinda
<zid> You should make a dump_state func that exports a dot graph of itself
<gog> yesssss
<zid> That's how I tested the parser I wrote
<heat> gog, gtg but i can debug it with u later
<gog> nah i can fix it
<heat> gog will fix it
<gog> i fixed things at work today too
<gog> stark contrast from breaking things
<heat> we will posthumously discover very dark things about gog
<gog> probably
<ryzerth> Did a bit more debugging, not the system table and protocol addresses look correct (had to remove the pragma pack stuff). But now, the last issue left is the ConsoleOutHandle's value is 0x1c. Is that even a valid value for a UEFI handle?
<ryzerth> now*
<mrvn> unless that is an offset I find that highly unlikely.
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<gog> console out handle: 0x0000000006b3b018
<gog> u can look at my efi headers if you want
<bslsk05> ​github.com: sophia/api/efi at main · adachristine/sophia · GitHub
<gog> that said, it's probably implementation-defined
<gog> although i don't know exactly how many implementations there are
<gog> pretty sure every OEM forks tianocore
<gog> heat: back me up here
* geist yawns
<geist> yay a gog
* geist pets the gog
* gog prrrr
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<Ermine> gog: you are not angry anymore?
<gog> Ermine: no you may pet
<Ermine> That's good
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<geist> you might get bitten, but probably wont draw blood and thats when you know to stop
<Jari--> I asked chatgpt to write "Microsoft-style operating system in C using low-level protected mode programming"
<GeDaMo> Protected mode DOS? :P
<nikolar> Jari--: did it return anything
<Jari--> wait
<bslsk05> ​pastebin.com: "Microsoft-style operating system in C using low-level protected mode programming" - Pastebin.com
<nikolar> impressive
<nikolar> a whole os in 37 lines of c
<mjg> beats onyx
<mrvn> does it actually do something?
<mjg> perhaps you could ask for unix-style operating system in c using low-level protected mode programming
<mjg> mrvn: yes, fails to compile
<nikolar> kek
<nikolar> onyx?
<mjg> it's an inside joke, don't worry about it
<nikolar> lol ok
<mjg> albeit technically it might be someone wrote a lol os and named it like that
<Jari--> whaat it can do IFLI displayer for C64 / MOS6510 low level coding :-O
<mjg> Jari--: ask chatgpt what cflags are recommended when compiling with gcc
* mjg hopes for -funroll-loops
<bslsk05> ​www.shlomifish.org: Welcome to Gentoo is Rice, the Volume goes to 11 here.
<Jari--> mjg: it pastes commonly used ones
<Jari--> you have to be more specific
<mjg> i'm cjust curious if it recommends -Wall
<Jari--> -Wall: Enable all warnings, so that potential issues in the code are reported.
<Jari--> yes
<Jari--> yes it does
<mjg> nice, chatgpt beats typical C course writers
<sham1> Not very difficult
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<gog> i can't eeven connect
<gog> i was going to ask it to fix my code
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<mjg> sham1: i know, the bar is almost non-existent and they still fuck it up
<zid> It's amazing how thoroughly trash most resources for C are
<zid> even published books
<mjg> ya
<mjg> you would think someone(tm) would sit down and do a proper introduction
<mjg> in the last 30 years
<bslsk05> ​www.iso-9899.info: Main Page - C
<mjg> tbh that wiki is not that great either
<zid> Like, there's a whole list of books you shouldn't touch with a 400 foot pool they're so bad
<zid> says a lot
<mjg> i found a c tutorial where a webtard was printfing pointers with %d
<mjg> cause "easier than hex"
<zid> That's a very minor crime compared to what I've seen
<mjg> excet he did not know this is bad because he was not -Walling either
<mjg> :]
<zid> like.. * (5/9) to convert to farenheit or whatever
<zid> never even ran the code clearly
<zid> and didn't know the language either
<mjg> also he printfed with %p once and %d next to it
<mjg> and did not fucking notice the %d addr is truncated
<mjg> it is smaller base and *shorter*
<zid> and then there's the whole class of 'resources' that have no idea C has a spec, and an implementation for their own platform
<gog> "easier than hex" what
<zid> and think the latter is C
<mrvn> mjg: that code is probably written on 32bit systems
<mjg> no
<mjg> 21:49 < mjg> also he printfed with %p once and %d next to it
<mjg> 21:49 < mjg> and did not fucking notice the %d addr is truncated
<mrvn> mjg: and what revision of the book was that? How old is the code?
<mjg> it was a jutube video from few yeras back
<mjg> 5-6 tops
<mrvn> mjg: jutubers frequently steal code :)
<mjg> fuckwad has several "complete" tutorials for different langs
<mjg> i prsume all same shit
<mrvn> .oO(or ask Chatgpt for it)
<mjg> qualityw-0ise
<nikolar> The C programming Language (1978) :)
<mrvn> mjg: sounds like it. Covering as many languages as he can find bad code for as possible to maximize the add revenue with minial work.
<mrvn> If you want a short tutorial of many languages there is a brine (code that outputs it's own source when compiled and executed) that goes through a million of them before closing the loop.
<nikolar> that's impressive
<nikolar> though it does require a billion toolchains to run
<nikolar> so not for the faint of hear
<nikolar> heart
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<mrvn> s/brine/quine/
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<bslsk05> ​esoteric.codes: The 128-Language Quine Relay
<mrvn> It even does them alphabetical.
<gog> dang i need to make bad tutorials
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<zid> heat when are you moving capital back to coimbra
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<epony> when intel returns his investment in shares
<epony> you know what's the relation between Santa Clara and Berkeley?
<epony> none, they are in the same USA state.. but Coimbra on the other hand..
<gog> they were both incorporated as tax havens from their larger neighboring cities?
<epony> is where the Holy Roman Inquisition hides its Santa Clara treasures
<epony> and that is where the big semiconductor fabless and one fabbed but locally no fabrication reside as head-quarters
<epony> so, if you want to liberate the microprocessors, you know where the ICBMs warheads make their spread re-entry landing
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<epony> all so conveniently in a small town of.. nothing
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<epony> we call that speculative / hollow industry (financial investment and offices of no real production)
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<heat> zid, never
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<heat> gog, yes, most of them are tianocore forks. bios vendors essentially take the already dubious tianocore, piss all over it and call it their new firmware product
<heat> it is disgusting
<heat> that said having decimal handles is normal I think. I believe that EFI_HANDLE really are just fd-like
<heat> mjg, also fuck you onyx best system of operating
<nikolar> got to love it when megacorps abuse foss
<heat> this is not really foss.
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<zid> what should I do with the rice I just made?
<heat> i am very disgruntled with the whole community because it is essentially a fucking source dump
<heat> and you slowly realize over time.
<zid> I am notte a chef I need idea
<heat> zid, eat
<zid> just as is?
<heat> yes
<zid> egg yolk sounds good, if I have an egg
<heat> consume for ATP, consume ATP for energy, $$$
<Ermine> so, is it hard to find motherboard which doesn not have tianocore?
<heat> yep
<epony> tianowhat?
<heat> there is literally one "proper" EFI implementation (tianocore), several horrible forks of it that sync up from time to time, and u-boot (if you can call that a EFI impl, which is kinda, not really complete)
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<epony> ah, you're talking about the parallel universe..
<Ermine> zid: what kind of rice you are talking about?
<heat> and ofc because things need to be hard, tianocore doesn't really have the full platform code for most platforms (only OVMF and other virtual platforms)
<heat> so you end up relying on blobs (proprietary and opaque), or intel reference code (proprietary), or both
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<heat> hehe split of the internets
<Ermine> libreboot just dropped tianocore support at some point
<heat> because libreboot sucks
<epony> (which does not exist)
<heat> libreboot is absolute FSF paranoia garbo
<heat> coreboot is much saner, and even then holy shit they are fucked
<epony> in the same way that parabola and hyperbola do not exist
<Ermine> heat: Yeah, it's utopia
<heat> there is *no way* to make a blobless platform in 2023. fact.
<Ermine> absolutely
<epony> it's vapour of a couple of "deletions"
<heat> so libreboot just supports FSF neckbeards' shitty 2007 tinkerpad
<Ermine> heat: yeah, ancient hardware only
<epony> it's not ancient, it's defunct
<nikolar> got to love m$ designed stuff
<mrvn> heat: RPi with clevers firmware
<heat> would I like a blobless platform? yes, absolutely, particularly on the x86 core (don't really care about blobs in the other co-processors)
<epony> when you castrate your firmware you get shit for compatibility with other systems
<mrvn> heat: then go start reverse engineering the microcode blob
<heat> but right now there's not even stable memory training code for fucking DDR3
<epony> and it's done to resell hardware as a means to transport a stupid file
<epony> which is the utmost stupidity
<heat> we're on *5*
<epony> "here, take this file for which you have to pay the price of a junk laptop which we found in the trash"
<Ermine> heat: but that's not the point. I meant, they said that tianocore sucks and dropped it
<heat> nikolar, m$ completely invalidates your argument, but i'll bite: microsoft did not design EFI
<epony> Intel did
<zid> I found a egg
<heat> nor are they the main driving force of it. That would be Intel.
<epony> the fucking coimbras
<heat> the original name for EFI was Intel Boot Initiative
<nikolar> didn't they do it with intel though
<nikolar> or am i misremembering
<heat> there was a strong microsoft influence, yes
<nikolar> clearly visible in abi and PE executables
<epony> if you check your fortune (cookie) files for limerick you'll find the other town with which satan clarice is "brothered"
<Ermine> guess where did abi came from
<heat> but the main driving force for this shit was extra reusability and miles of encapsulation
<heat> if anything, microsoft would probably like to ditch it
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<Ermine> why the hell did they make byte code for drivers
<mrvn> Ermine: so it runs on ppc/arm?
<heat> because in an ideal world you could run OPROMs in any CPU
<nikolar> heat: and come up with their even worse proprietary firmware
<epony> microsoft is useless when designing standards and software mapping of hardware
<clever> Ermine: so you could put a driver in a pci expansion rom, and it works on any cpu
<nikolar> clever: and how often is that feature used i wonder
<epony> you should stay away from any hardware related to microsoft, it's mostly fake and useless
<heat> nikolar, microsoft is barely in the firmware space. everything microsoft has done in firmware (see: project mu) has been good and open-source
<epony> same applies to google and apple
<nikolar> well i am surprised
<heat> they are miles better than your "holy Intel FOSS best 01.org"
<nikolar> oh no i dislike intel as much as the next guy
<nikolar> with intel ME and all that
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<zid> intel are hard to hate because they make stuff that works :(
<heat> (wait until you figure out how many other coprocessors you have)
<nikolar> same goes for amd i guess
<epony> Intel is for the Israel-NATO "markets"
<zid> nothing amd works
<nikolar> my laptop works :)
<epony> you're the wrong market for it
<clever> heat: ive also heard that the rpi firmware is threadx based, and https://github.com/azure-rtos/threadx seems to be an MS product
<bslsk05> ​azure-rtos/threadx - Azure RTOS ThreadX is an advanced real-time operating system (RTOS) designed specifically for deeply embedded applications. (520 forks/1578 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<epony> Amd is for the Islamo-OPEC "markets"
<mrvn> heat: they don't bother adding a backdoor to your CPU, they already have 5 coprocessors for that.
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<nikolar> mrvn: kek
<heat> hint: they don't want a backdoor to your CPU
<epony> you know for which market ARM is?
<heat> why the fuck would you ever need that
<mrvn> you know, terrorists.
<heat> the coprocessors are there for stupidly strong IP encapsulation
<zid> not one that works with the regular mobotherboard pinset at least
<Ermine> clever: is it something that resides on the motherboard? If so, you cannot insert cpus of different architectires to this motherboard afaik
<heat> plus "extra features" like management of computers
<zid> they might want one if you wire up the pins differently in the lab
<clever> Ermine: pci(e) expansion cards, say like an ethernet card
<epony> ARM is for the embedded market of course, so it undermines both sides of the holy triangle of hairy doom
<heat> believe it or not adding backdoors to your shit is absolutely not want intelligence agencies want
<heat> because now your computers are vulnerable to foreign powers and intelligence agencies, yay!
<Ermine> clever: ah, makes sense then
<zid> unless it's RSA secured and only you have the keys.. which is possible, but unlikely
<clever> Ermine: with an efi bytecode driver on the NIC, then the uefi firmware could then netboot over that NIC
<epony> only yours, we run invlulnerable tech from the 70ies and 80ies
<zid> I don't believe nobody at intel would have dropped any info of that
<heat> zid, and then they leak and everyone's fucked
<gog> yay my console thingy is basically done
<gog> now on to fix my broken vm_alloc
<epony> only one side of the holy triangle of fatality
<heat> clever, problem is: no one uses that. the only EBC compiler was very expensive and sold by Intel
<heat> EBC is very much dead
<zid> heat: If it happened they'd just STRONGLY suggest that their affiliated suppliers etc upgraded to 13900ks or whatever
<nikolar> gog: great work
<clever> Ermine: or perhaps a gpu that doesnt follow the old vga specs
<nikolar> EBC?
<heat> efi bytecode
<epony> by the way, these processors are consumer electronics, nothing to do with really important applications of computers
<zid> entel benevolent compiler
<clever> heat: yeah, so while they had a good design, they ruined it :P
<nikolar> ah
<zid> I like the idea of EFI modules being bytecode only
<heat> and this is a minus, not a plus. now ARM firmware that wants to run OP ROMs usually needs an x86 emulator on board
<mrvn> heat: seriously? nobody things that sanely. Only they know the backdoor and it will never ever leak, like ever. And they will always only use it with authorization.
<mrvn> s/things/thinks/
<zid> from security, code quality and portability perspective it's a win
<epony> arm boots from a dos partition
<epony> hahaha
<heat> yes mrvn, only if you give me authorization, I promise
<samis> it wouldn't have mattered usagewise, but there's always forth a la openfirmware
<heat> a key will never ever leak, because things never leak
<heat> it's not like there's a bimonthly leak of large proprietary software and sometimes even keys
<mrvn> heat: exactly. they never had keys leak or someone misuse access. ever. like in the last 10hours.
<epony> minutes
<heat> great, you get my point
<zid> tbh, rsa keys have been SURPRISINGLY good at not being leaked
<epony> you're using someone elses streaming credentials too
<zid> nintendo, sony, intel, etc haven't had it happen
<epony> don't play smart
<zid> which is surprising
<nikolar> great, now how they have to reset the 'days since last leak' counter
<zid> sony has had a whole bunch of infra hacked before now too
<mrvn> zid: why leak a rsa key when you can just brute force the internationally allowed bit size in 2 minutes?
<epony> sony is japanese, japan is infiltrated by us spies
<epony> US controls the Japanese electronics production industry completely
<clever> mrvn: what was that limit again?
<epony> it's wholly owned
<mrvn> clever: used to be 40 bit? 56bit? Something ridiculous.
<clever> ive got a target with a 2048bit key, and i assumed it was just imposible
<clever> ah yeah, thats tiny, lol
<epony> same for Taiwan, South Korean, Singapore, Malaysia, etc
<Ermine> clever: you're clever :)
<samis> didn't those restrictions die in the 90s
<epony> vasennaar agreement never dies
<nikolar> clever: good old des
<mrvn> samis: I believe Debian still reports every uploaded source in the US to comply with the weapons export laws.
<clever> nikolar: the rpi4 uses either hmac-sha1 (horribly weak) or rsa2048
<samis> also this happened lol: 'in 1997, Lotus negotiated an agreement with the NSA that allowed export of a version that supported stronger keys with 64 bits, but 24 of the bits were encrypted with a special key and included in the message to provide a "workload reduction factor" for the NSA'
<mrvn> samis: half the time the mail server they report to is broken but that's not Debians problem.
<nikolar> clever: yeah sha1 has been known to be broken for like two decades now
<clever> nikolar: its more broken because of the hmac half, the signing key, is also the validation key, so the key exists on the end-user device
<nikolar> ah lol that's even worse
<epony> do you recall when the disclosures made by Edward Snowden were published?
<epony> guess in one try
<gog> 2012
<clever> nikolar: it looks like the rsa signature, is rsa-sha1, with a 2048bit key: https://github.com/librerpi/rpi-tools/blob/master/signing-tool/bootcode.js#L17-L32
<bslsk05> ​github.com: rpi-tools/bootcode.js at master · librerpi/rpi-tools · GitHub
<clever> nikolar: so i can either crack the 2048bit key, or i can get a collision on a sha1 from a list, and reuse an old signature
<nikolar> yeah interesting
<nikolar> did they really make a signing tool in js
<zid> I didn't think SHA1 was actually broken
<zid> just a few bits shaved off and cloud computing being a thing
<gog> i don't feel like it
<zid> i.e it went under $100k or whatever
<clever> zid: from what ive heard, if you can control 2 bodies, you can mutate them to have a hash collision with eachother
<mrvn> clever: how long does it take an RPi to find a collision?
<zid> you can always do that, the question is how fast you can do it
<clever> but if you only control 1 body and want to match a pre-chosen sha1, i dont think its broken?
<zid> pre-image attack or something? I forget the name
<nikolar> yeah that's true
<clever> i think i also heard something else, maybe about sha1, an appending attack
<epony> brought to you by secret IP implants at design and production programming level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013%E2%80%93present)?useskin=vector#Global_surveillance
<clever> how the final hash, is just the sha internal state
<zid> oh right it's 10pm, time for bookworm
<clever> so you can convert that state back into a hash, and do another _update
<zid> clever: oh yea that's kinda normal but sounds kinda bad
<clever> yeah, you can take hash(secret+payload), and turn it into hash(secret+payload+extra)
<zid> if I know an intermediate hash I can make a 'bigger' file with a specific hash from it easier
<clever> without knowing the secret
<mrvn> clever: so what? So you get a new and different hash for a bigger file. Same as if you had hashed the whole file from the start.
<zid> than having to start over
<zid> anyway, bookworm
<clever> mrvn: some schemes involve sending hash(secret+payload) and payload, and only if you have the secret can you create the right hash
<clever> mrvn: as a form of signature
<clever> and with this attack, i could add a "ps:" to a letter, saying ive moved, and to send all future leters there
<mrvn> clever: don't do that
<clever> hmac avoids this, by hashing the hash
<clever> and also xor'ing a different constant into the secret on each phase
<clever> and yeah, this is why you dont roll your own crypto, your going to overlook edge cases like that
<heat> gog, you fix???
<gog> no
<gog> i fix the video
<gog> i didn't fix the vm_alloc break
<nikolar> clever: not to mention the side channel attack
<nikolar> attacks
<heat> gog, sho me bug
<clever> nikolar: ive looked into the srp6a algo, i heard blizzard used it for password authentication
<gog> heat: idk where it is
<gog> i haven't even dug it up yet
<nikolar> clever: haven't heard of it before
<clever> nikolar: it has some very funky crypto voodoo going on
<clever> the server is storing a hashed version of your pw, so it cant be hacked and do bad things
<nikolar> unsurprising really
<clever> but its also got some DH key-exchange elements mixed in
<nikolar> now i wonder how secure libsodium is
<clever> where both parties exchange data, and agree upon a shared key
<clever> but, its also validating the server at the same time
<mrvn> clever: it's amazing how many firms get that trivial thing wrong
<clever> if the server doesnt know the hash of your pw, it failes the key exchange
<epony> films are not made to realism
<mrvn> nikolar: pretty much 0 when you use it wrong
<clever> so if somebody does mitm you, the authentication fails, because both the client and server must agree on what the pw is
<nikolar> mrvn: well that's a given
<epony> they are propaganda bullshit advertisements and fake subliminal messages in plain view
<epony> films are a digpick
<nikolar> clever: that's a good thing at least
<clever> mrvn: ive heard horror stories, about one ISP that was stripping special characters from passwords, to prevent sql injection
<epony> the real films are documentaries and live footage of important events
<clever> mrvn: so the more special characters in your pw, the simpler it becomes
<mrvn> clever: and at the same time you must have some or it's "insecure"
<gog> i like propaganda and hate thinking
<epony> the "commercial movies / cinematographic fake story telling" is false / faux stupidity and purely failed enetertainment
<epony> bollywood is more realistic than hollywood in that regard
<clever> mrvn: now that i think of it, my isp's dialup pw, is also my isp email pw, its just 8 capitol letters, and it hasnt been changed since the 90's
<epony> capitolia
<heat> gog, im bored, wanna pair-debug?
<clever> whatever the isp originally set
<gog> no i'm going to bed soon
<epony> apply data hygiene when pear sharing
<clever> i assume that the same is true for a large chunk of the user-base
<heat> the c in gog stands for cool
<kof123> "it is essentially a $#@$#@$#@ source dump" agile for you, waterfall for me
<gog> :<
<gog> mean
<heat> you broke my heart goggers
<heat> ;_;
<epony> you can never be too cautious with apples and goggles, you don't know whether they've been to and what they've been used to look at
<heat> all I wanted to do is look at your beautiful, voluptuous crash dumps
<heat> instead of that I get the sweet embrace of death
<epony> backdoor applesauce dma hattacks
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<zid> god damn side stories stealing up all my content per week, oh well
<epony> s/wether/where/weather/wither/
<epony> like chinese balloonies
<gog> heat: i don't have any crash dumps
<gog> only sad code
<zid> clever: don't suppose you're up to date on bookworm/
<epony> that's a dump that will cause crash after all
<epony> braindumps
<clever> zid: ive not started the novels, but i have heard a few spoilers on YT
<zid> not STARTED? fuck man
<zid> we're on 23 or something
<clever> anime only, if you dont count the spoilers ive heard
<mrvn> clever: what novels?
<epony> one more and you get a dawn syndrome for free
<clever> mrvn: Ascendance of a Bookworm
<heat> hold up
<heat> people reading books about someone that likes reading books?
<zid> yes
<heat> fucking what
<heat> this is nerd^2
<clever> heat: who is stuck in a world where books are horid expensive and still copied by hand
<heat> is this about capitalism
<zid> it's a european court drama
<zid> but the class system is enforced via magic
<mrvn> way to expensive for my taste
<heat> ah, so its harry potter for nerds
<heat> got it
<zid> if 'anything with magic in it' is harry potter then yes, otherwise definitely no
<zid> lord of the rings is my favourite harry potter book
<nikolar> kek
<mrvn> Even for the chaper kindle version it would be >200EUR to catch up on that.
<mrvn> +e
<epony> the ring eventually grows on you
<epony> phenomenon observed by hilary's donut
<heat> i have way too much shit to read before I can get to interesting books like "book about someone that really likes books"
<clever> heat: then watch the anime first, and see how much it grows on you
<zid> anime is bad tho
<heat> oh, I don't like anime
<zid> anime is bad, and the anime is bad
<clever> zid: what did they ruin? other then the spoiler in ep1?
<zid> It's just cheap and rushed
<epony> one onion routerling to lure them all https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&q=hilary+donut
<bslsk05> ​www.google.com: hilary donut - Google Search
<zid> honzuki is a talking anime, it needs good script writing and pacing on the lines
<heat> do I want more context or nah?
<zid> there needs to be room for facial reactions and pauses and stuff
<zid> and they didn't get it
<zid> basically it needs to be 'acted' and there needs be a 'performance'
<zid> not just some line reading over some pretty pictures
<epony> better write the eternal september booking of irc free places.. subscribe now, than read a book of old times that are, like gone and in the dated past
<mrvn> zid: you mean like a comic?
<epony> you can't read comix
<zid> there's a radioplay version of it I'd be interested in listening to it just to see if they did it well or not, even though I wouldn't understand it
<epony> in the same way that you're not reading invisible holy books with open hands of no book, and you're not reading audiobooks, and you're not reading flipper animations
<epony> let's act like we're writing a book
<mrvn> learn japanese
<epony> in 24 short hours
<epony> and Chinese the good parts
<epony> head first martial arts for dummies
<gog> meow
<heat> bark
<zid> heat how many volumes have you read now
<gog> i don't know how to read
<zid> I can just about do it
* zid hides the 800 light novels he read last year
<heat> im reading cranor's dissertation on uvm
<heat> also reading plato's the symposium
<netbsduser`> they are good matches
<netbsduser`> i love uvm
<netbsduser`> i don't just say that because i carbon-copied it either
<heat> >netbsduser
<heat> whaaat
<heat> :DD
<epony> the first one ot write the combined concise work on system administration for BSD, GNU and POSIX with Shell + AWK + Perl primers gets a magic cookie
<epony> what did chuck cranor invent?
<netbsduser`> epony: UVM
<epony> no
<epony> ssh+cvs
<clever> zid: you need to step up your game! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si8zRaa8vis
<bslsk05> ​'Reading 1000 Books in a Month' by Tabbes (00:05:37)
<clever> 800 in a year is weak!
<netbsduser`> https://chuck.cranor.org/ prolific man apparently
<bslsk05> ​chuck.cranor.org: Chuck Cranor's Home Page
<bslsk05> ​www.openbsd.org: OpenBSD: Innovations
<epony> don't know about other claims of invention
<heat> " shell: /bin/tcsh (note: for scripting I use perl)" blocked.
<heat> it's like he chose the wrong options on purpose
<zid> You can't read 1000 books in a month unless they're smaller than the ones I read
<zid> or you skim read them
<clever> zid: she cheated a bit, counting short childrens books as well
<zid> see
<zid> these are 250-300 pages long
<clever> anything that was a single "book"
<netbsduser`> 2 and a half years on i still haven't even finished one book (hegel's 'science of logic')
<heat> "Build tool: cmake" YUP HE'S BAITING ME
<zid> the trick is to read shitty books but are long
<zid> that*
<epony> when you start reading a book on philosophy, you have lost.. because you're not writing your competing philosophy book while you read
<epony> philosophy will really break your mind
<heat> right, because you'll skip 3/4ths of them
<heat> solid thinking
<zid> no
<epony> like those break dancers can't never become archery contest winners, ever
<heat> 1 long shitty book = 1 short decent book
<zid> you just won't get hung up on bad translation errors and stuff
<zid> or get so invested you need a good sit down
<heat> > bad translation errors
<heat> but that is why I read the EFI and ACPI specs!
<epony> so logic is not operational in verbal / linguistic / philosophical means
<zid> I read books about the emergency alarms that sink ships, sirenas
<zid> or was it singing women who sink ships, can't tell
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<zid> who knows
<gog> i've never read a book
<zid> I have a friend who I think has never read a book
<zid> it gives him migraines
<heat> fun fact: books are banned in iceland
<zid> They're made of trees, so it makes sense tbh
<epony> logic is operational on logic circuitry (mechanical and electrical and similar, that works correctly) and that being used as assistive tooling for better logic designs and rational reasoning
<heat> the few that exist are burned yearly in the winter for warmth
<zid> it'd be like people in america eating food made of social healthcare
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<epony> logic works on mathematical level, principally
<epony> on verbiage and rhetorics, it's a failed cause
<epony> philosophy is irrational reasoning with the self and the other philosophers who are mostly deceased, and some contemporary arguments.. but is mostly "socio-political" in essence, rather than scientific and has really little attachment to natural sciences
<epony> a "policy" of thought experiments and "conclusions" without the reality
<gog> cool
<epony> in that sense, all philosophy works are about "philosophical" themes (which is blatantly obvious, but the deep meaning is they are not about natural themes or can't be, and when they are they are inclusive)
<epony> inconclusive
<epony> this political correctness has destroyed our chats
<heat> gog what's your 13personalities thingy?
<gog> what?
<gog> idk what that is
<heat> sorry, 16 personalities
<zid> I only have like, 4
<heat> 16personalities.com
<gog> you mean MBTI?
<zid> dataharvesting.com?
<gog> i don't do that nonsense
<zid> I do a lot of MTBI
<heat> yes gog
<gog> i mean i did one once
<heat> why nonsense?
<gog> pop psychology nonsense
<zid> they are nonsense
<gog> correlation between reality is tenuous at beast
<zid> it's star-signs all over again
<gog> and random at worst
<heat> they are not nonsense because I consistently get the same shit over and over again
<zid> quick heat, tell me your blood type so I can look it up in this chart
<zid> because you answer it the same way, dickhead
<heat> they are actually a decent description of me
<zid> it's the same shit as cold reading
<gog> yes
<gog> exactly
<gog> it's cold reading
<zid> "Are you generally a nice person?" "Yes" "You're a nice person who.."
<zid> heat mind blown
<zid> Despite its popularity, it has been widely regard as pseudoscience by the scientific community.
<zid> Media reports have called the test "pretty much meaningless",[60] "one of the worst personality tests in existence",[61] and "the fad that won't die".[11]
<heat> it's not cold reading because it's not telling me anything new
<zid> that's what cold reading is
<heat> just a fun thing to see how people are
<zid> saying meaningless or parroted things with no additional information
<zid> except it doesn't say how people are
<gog> if you must know the times i did it to satisfy work things i got INTP and ENFP at different times
<gog> becauseomg people change over time
<zid> I don't know my star sign, blood type, or liarsbriggs type
<zid> deal with it suckers
<heat> ok
<zid> heat: I can talk to your dead mum for £20/hr btw
<heat> why are you getting go defensive holy shit
<heat> so*
<zid> ah yes, the classic defensive move, calling people suckers :P
<gog> because i lived with someboddy who was very into this kind of thing and related
<gog> enneaegram
<gog> etc
<gog> and it was posied to change my life
<gog> and at time i really believed it
<zid> oh god, I hate new age hippies
<heat> but i never said it was? wtf
<gog> i know you didn't
<zid> I'd have murdered them in their wake
<heat> it's just a fun thing you tell people to do and see how they are
<zid> They don't deserve it in their sleep
<zid> It doesn't show how they are.
<heat> it indeed rougly matches their personality
<zid> For the 10th time it's made up
<gog> there's more to it than that
<gog> there's a whole industry of self-help scams built around this
<gog> and other personality inventories
<gog> and people get really into that shit
<gog> and i did for a minute too
<zid> all products aimed at new age hippie people are technically scams, even if they are happy with their purchase imo
<zid> crystals, oils, whatever
<gog> and i'm hugely resentful that i wasted time and money on the thing that didn't improve my life or mental health when i could've gone to like real therapy and dealt with my actual problems
<heat> oh sure, definitely
<zid> accupuncture, chiropractic, astrology, mediums, blah blah
<zid> it's surprising how gulliable people are
<Ermine> education system is a global problem.
<gog> so when i hear people talk about this stuff, even in a superficial "haha that's funny well anyway" type way, i still feel ways about how it led me down paths that led me further from actually dealing with my shit
<zid> studies have *actually* shown that some people are just.. stupid and conspiratorial
<zid> so they gravitate to stuff like this
<gog> and how it got me with people i regret having been with
<zid> and the people they prey on are generally wounded people
<heat> gog, right, and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way
<heat> to me, it's just a silly test. it usually roughly matches up with people and you can go "omg youre the same thingy as me"
<gog> yes
<gog> i understand that
<zid> That isn't what that tool is 'for' though
<gog> and a lot of people can leave it at that
<zid> it's for upselling shitty self help books
<gog> anyhow
<gog> you didn't make me feel that way
<gog> i accept your apology and i don't take it personal
<heat> <3
<gog> <3
<zid> Like, it's nice to go to the special back doctor who gives you a massage or whatever
<Ermine> love!
<zid> not so fun to watch the lady outside thinking it'll cure her baby's cancer
<zid> which is a genuine thing they advertise they can do
<mrvn> zid: chiropractic doesn't claim to cure cancer
<gog> there are two schools of chiropractic
<gog> one that just does back go crackle
<zid> the harmless which supports the insane, and the insane
<gog> and then the other which believes in the theory of spinal subluxation which blocks the body's natural ability to heal itself from all disease and injury
<mrvn> gog: you mean chiropractic and not chiropractic?
<gog> no i mean the latter is based on the founding principles of chiropractic
<zid> It's a bit like saying about nestlé that you only buy the products they didn't exploit children to make so it's fine, it's still propping it up
<gog> the former has come around to the evidence-based medicine
<gog> and has concluded that it's good for back pain and that's about it
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<zid> sometimes, if they don't accidentally quadraplegic you :P
<gog> yes
<gog> or just outright kill you with a carotid aneurysm
<Ermine> Idk what happens on your TVs, but we have ads about homeopathic pills
<epony> that's poison dilluted to.. micro-doses of poison
<zid> Technically they *could* do adverts for it here, because it wouldn't run afoul of the rules
<zid> with it not being medicine
<epony> but really cheap and not healing / not medicinal
<zid> but it's all lies so they'd quickly get taken off-air for that instead
<zid> so nobody bothers
<epony> so homeopathy is more like snakeoil
<zid> (american TV having ads for prescription meds is one of the strangest twilight zone things I've ever seen btw, it's completely wtf inducing)
<epony> or rather, drops of bland sugar replacement with traces of heavy metals
<epony> shuld be sued out of existence
<gog> i had to stock that crap at work
<epony> well, you've seen the many bristle paint brushes from the 90ies ads
<gog> but i made sure to tell anybody who asked me about it that it was bogus and not to buy it
<gog> somebody asked me if colloidal silver worked and i said "yeah if you wanna turn your fingertips blue"
<epony> and car polish that protects against nails and burns
<zid> or into a smuef
<zid> smurf
<gog> "it's called argyria, look it up"
<zid> that guy was amazing
<epony> it's the same "sell more lead in white paint" to protect from nuclear blasts from the 50ies and 60ies
<zid> He literally turned into papa smurf
<Ermine> zid: on our TVs it doesn't get off the air. Even on state-sponsored chanells!
<zid> where's a here btw
<epony> google is not much different
<gog> i have a hypothesis that some of my mental illnesses are due to brain abnormalities caused by lead paint
<epony> it's a 24/7 US TV infomercial
<epony> that spies on you
<zid> there's actually a graph of crime vs lead paint
<gog> yes
<zid> and they correlate
<gog> lead gasoline
<gog> well
<gog> lead in everything
<gog> everywhere
<zid> and triethyl lead yea
<epony> lead pipes hit hard, but so does angled steel frame parts
<zid> I think we've just finally hit the point where they're banning it for airplane engines
<gog> oh shit that's right avgas still allowes it lmao
<zid> because it's about time all the older models of plane are retiring for good
<epony> steel production has hard drinking coal workers and they get into rough scandals, which correlates with crime too
<zid> nobody wanted to recertify the 747 or whatever to not have it, or to research different additives or whatever so we just let them keep it, apparently?
<epony> that kind of conclusions is a bit strange / odd, but the reality is lead does cause nervous tissue damage and is a heavy metal poison
<epony> so.. is dangerous at any way of contamination
<gog> i don't think jet fuel has it
<gog> only piston engine fuel
<epony> the dumb people of modernity however is not caused by that, it's caused mostly by.. exposing how uneducated the people really are despite having middle school classes "completed" in "brain-drain-sleep-retardation" mode of being there but not being there in the taught material
<zid> that.. makes sense yes
<zid> didn't even enter my mind that a 747 was turbine
<zid> s/747/cesna
* gog fingerguns
<zid> I picked a bad 'hmm think of an old plane quick'
<gog> there are a lot of prop planes that land at the airport nearby but most of those are turboprop
<zid> oh wait that's an A-10
<epony> that focker spitfire and the other biplanes
<Mutabah> It's not even old Cessna 172s...
<gog> yes
<Mutabah> even brand new designs use LL100 avgas - aparently getting reliable high-HP combustion with modern unleaded is hard... and engine certification is harder
<zid> yea aero is all about le certs
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<gog> certify deez
<epony> as for the brain not affected by "information" that it learns to blank / isolate against, that's a learned conditioning.. and is more a deliberate choice but also the result of some stress avoidance and not much strive to bring up the smarts in people, but normalise / trim their capacity
<epony> enter capitalismus maximus ;-)
<epony> it takes deliberate persistence and strive to avoid that
<epony> "thought cauterisation"
<epony> reading books (textbooks and then books) definitely compensates / helps that feedback loop with the educators
<gog> i will never read a book
<epony> and if there are at least one two "reading" kids in a class / group it raises their hope and they do address better the entire group, so it lifts the group being educated by the "inspired" and "hopeful" teachers
<epony> teachers like kids a lot
<epony> just need to see a couple of sparks here and there
<Ermine> gog: why
<zid> because of the patriarchy duh
<kof123> where are the sparking teachers?
<epony> more likely because printed books cost and these money are not growing on trees, so the electronic varaints replace the books, but it's difficult to read on the same device that is used for other work, so it's a lack of a physical or electronic medium (display) and dedication / time, but there are smarter way to "read" books instead of end-to-end, and that reading should have happened at school and during vacations
<gog> Ermine: books are for nerds
<epony> most commercial and publicly available books are not that much for specialised audiences but for general and baseline level of competence
<Ermine> gog: but hey you are in #osdev
<epony> so are neither technical enough, nor accurate and precise
<zid> is a book nerd worse or better than a train nerd
<epony> for that, textbooks and adaptations of these (similar to university courses) are needed
<epony> books are fantastic, but you need to find the really valuable ones from the chaffe of commerce and publicity
<kof123> isnt that what teachers are for?
<Ermine> zid: train nerd?
<epony> teachers are for providing quick learning and ideas how to process and work with the learning and to present the material in a narrative way, exposing the important 'navigational' points
<zid> Yes, have you not seen the movie "Scottish men taking lots of drugs?"