<heat>
did it never come from BeOS sources, but NewOS? I genuinely don't know
<zid>
The author was allergic to bees and changed their mind
<heat>
also be BeOS sounds funky
<heat>
I am a bee and I want to be BeOS
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<klange>
Haiku : BeOS :: ReactOS : Windows
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<klange>
Not based on BeOS code, but intended to be compatible - at least for x86, using the older toolchain.
<heat>
ah cool
<heat>
so why NewOS?
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<heat>
it looks like an odd choice, choosing an amateur-ish OS instead of something big and professional like GNU
<heat>
maybe the osdev ecosystem was a lot different back then
<klange>
You'd really have to ask the original core devs from back then.
<klange>
NewOS was functionality pretty complete as a kernel, but still small - probably made it a good candidate for being molded into something that could pretend to be BeOS more so than, like, Linux or even one of the BSDs which were hugely complicated even then.
<heat>
would it not be like someone taking your kernel or mine and forking it?
<heat>
or was NewOS way more functional than that?
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<klange>
There weren't quite so many kernels of that calibre, with viable licenses, twenty years ago. And NewOS had one other thing going for it: it was written by a Be engineer - what better to form the basis of a BeOS continuation?
<zid>
Using the atari ST bee cursor would have been the best first step
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* geist
waves
<geist>
yah klange pretty much summed it up
<geist>
was my first kernel, and was pretty similar in design to beos, so they chose it as their base
<geist>
heat: " it looks like an odd choice, choosing an amateur-ish OS instead of something big and professional like GNU" I see what you did there
<Mutabah>
Maybe they were aiming for GNU-os but found New-os
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<zid>
Man, following a series that is complete in the original but not officially translated is like purgatory. I could rapidly spoil myself on what happens next if I wanted to.
<zid>
In other news, how is my streams doing heat?
<klange>
What series?
<zid>
honzuki
<klange>
Ah, some of my online weeb friends follow that.
<klange>
Ironically, I am not a huge weeb in the general case. I don't even really follow the franchise I named my OS after.
<zid>
Closest I can describe it is GoT but good
<zid>
Well it's set in medieval europe so it's not especially weeby
<zid>
just happens to have a japanese author
<klange>
Light novels are particularly annoying for me to get into because I'm capable of reading well enough I _should_ read them in Japanese, but then it's a chore to do so.
<zid>
I'm honestly not a fan of japanese prose at all
<zid>
All the stuff I've seen. Written like this. Opposite of German.
<geist>
mjg_: yeah thanks for digging up stuff i wrote 24 years ago and ripping on it
<geist>
really appreciate that. i should point out that even the notion of SMP on a x86 machine was already fairly exotic back then. If you had something it was dual processor at most unless you had a mega expensive quad processor server
<zid>
I always wanted a dual socket pentium 3 machine (dual slot? :P)
<geist>
spinlocks written like that were pretty par the course at the time. PAUSE instruction wasn't even added to the ISA back then
<zid>
It had purple resist mask thou\gh being the main reason I wanted it
<geist>
yeah i remember paying pretty good money for a dual slot P3 at the time. still have it
<geist>
i remember at Be office the only quad cpu machine we had was this high end mac clone PPC thing
<zid>
Man, this would be easier to talk about if I could actually see rn, I've gone temporarily blind
<bslsk05>
en.wikipedia.org: Scintillating scotoma - Wikipedia
<klys>
< glenda> If you want to go somewhere, goto is the best way to get there.
<klys>
ah I was scrolled up
<geist>
zid: oh huh that's the name for the thing i have gotten a handful of times
<geist>
i get those extremely rarely
<zid>
I used to get them somewhat often as a teenager?
<zid>
but in the past week I've had 3 again out of nowhere
<geist>
yah usually in my case it's cleary some sort of stress and/or dehydration
<geist>
or, out of the blue. thankfully it has no headache and usually resolves within 20 minutes or so. typically seems to drift off frame
<zid>
one of them happened while I was trying to get my computer to boot
<zid>
the rest idk
<geist>
yeah. i *think* going in a dark room helps
<zid>
I'm always in a dark room :D
<klys>
when I came back in from work I watched a 40min. video for yet another anti-aging supplement, visifree. seems like it would be good to use with telogenesis (the other one I remember.)
<klys>
and then tonight I went to karaoke downtown, was fun.
<geist>
noice!
<klys>
:) how have you been?
<geist>
oh not too bad. a bit jet lagged
<klys>
really, you got back eh
<zid>
dark room status is about to end, the huge ball of fire in the sky is making the air go blue
<geist>
stupid daystar
<klys>
I hear there are some interesting organic chemicals which were once used for developing film
<zid>
at this time of year we actually get night time at least
<klys>
somewhere around here there's a noworky parts/repair dual slot P3 mobo.
<klys>
kitty got tail
<geist>
Tyan Tiger 100 was the defacto solid dual slot board at the time
<klys>
sounds familiar
<geist>
i still have mine, and it still runs like a champ. at some point i upgraded it to 1GB ram, the max it could take and at the time would hvae been an incredible amount
<geist>
used the 440bx chipset which was an extremely solid one
<geist>
i keep it around because it also has dual voltage pci and isa slots, so good for old card compatibility/testing
<geist>
like an old pci scsi card i have floating around
<geist>
but yet fast enough to also run fairly modern os stuff
<klys>
when I started plugging in this new motherboard I had to order new standoffs (nylon insulators and longer brass ones) for this old 4U rosewill eatx case. should possibly arrive towards next week.
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<FatAlbert>
good morning
<klys>
gm.
<FatAlbert>
i forgot, to welcome you to #osdev klys
<FatAlbert>
so welcome
<klys>
oh not bad, I've been here some time, my logs date to 02feb2016
<Mutabah>
For a moment I read that as a hex number
<klys>
=)
<klys>
...pronounced ozfezoig
<klys>
something like that
<zid>
it took me until you said that Mutabah until I found out it wasn't
<Mutabah>
:D
<zid>
it's the damn leading 0 padding it to 8 that does it
<Mutabah>
It's padded to 9 with the leading zero
<Mutabah>
2+3+4
<FatAlbert>
klys: i taking it back you are NOT new here obviously
<zid>
I'm blind I have an excuse
<Mutabah>
I'll allow it
<FatAlbert>
so it's not hexadecimal ? :X
<klys>
ozfebzoig rhymes with ausgezeichnit which means outstanding
<zid>
oig rhymes with ichnit? german is silly
<FatAlbert>
mein deutsch schlecht geworden
<FatAlbert>
ich hab fur a langer zeit nicht gesprochen
<FatAlbert>
Mutabah: if it's not hexadecimal what is it ?
<FatAlbert>
after all that's why i still donig here .. learning new stuff/concepts
<klys>
fatalbert, a two digit date, a three digit month, and a four digit year.
<geist>
yah for whatever reason old DEC operating systems always used that format
<geist>
DD-MMM-YYYY
<zid>
it's the least ambiguous format to be fair
<klys>
here is my favorite.theo quote: < glenda> And now let's ask the question which matters.
<zid>
and still goes in natural order
<geist>
yeah totally. no way to misread the day vs month field
<geist>
i guess that's why
<zid>
only fails in that it isn't iso format so it isn't lexically sortable
<zid>
but that's annoying to look at cus.. reverse
<geist>
yah that's why i use YYYYMMDD for all my time stamps for logs or whatnot
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<klys>
I did come up with something one time in C to sort according to [xyastfhkopegunizjcvqlrdmb]
<klys>
oh there was a w [xyastfhkopegunizjcvwqlrdmb]
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<FatAlbert>
/save
<FatAlbert>
ill wait for somenoe who actually who is actually helpful
<FatAlbert>
i called them assholes because THEY STOPPED what they were doing ( which is explain what this number is )
<geist>
ah. well okay then
<FatAlbert>
?
FatAlbert was banned on #osdev by geist [FatAlbert!*@*]
<geist>
one strike.
FatAlbert was kicked from #osdev by geist [FatAlbert]
<zid>
The reason people "stopped talking to him" is that nobody was talking to him to begin with lol
<geist>
indeed. i told them they had one chance when i unbanned em last week
<geist>
i knew it would fail, but sometimes folks get their life together over time
<zid>
He'll need a med change first I'd imagine
<geist>
but that's precisely why they get banned. not a troll, just has severe issues dealing with people in a rational way. so it goes.
<Griwes>
klys, that's a nice cat
<zid>
but it's my cat picture :(
<klys>
griwes, I blame zid
<zid>
does your terminal auto-scrape images and put them as your background somehow
<klys>
well th ebrowser is visible most of the time
<Griwes>
zid: that's a nice cat
<zid>
Your taskbar seems incredibly useful btw :P
<zid>
hope you like sh and 9
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<Mutabah>
Well, that went from zero to ban quite quickly (observing, not objeting)
<Mutabah>
*objecting
<geist>
i told em they were on thin ice already
<Mutabah>
Yup
<zid>
I just got the windows 'bading' error nice.. but I have no idea why
<zid>
like a MessageBoxA(.., MB_ERROR); happened
<zid>
s/nice/noise
<Mutabah>
"bading" error?
<klys>
message boxes have errors then, hope it doesn't make the messagebox too unruly
<Mutabah>
Is that a specific error message, or just a generic one
<zid>
ba-ding!
<Mutabah>
Ah
<zid>
I think it's called 'Asterisk'
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<mjg_>
geist: i'm ripping on haiku *today*
<zid>
Can I rip on how there's no made in abyss next week and I am very very sad
<mjg_>
i got a job offer to port a storage solution from freebsd to linux
<mjg_>
:sadface:
<dminuoso>
Do not succumb. Dont be a part of a society that gets rid of well written, well documented and cohesive operating systems in place of this kitchen sink that linux is.
<zid>
"don't make software useful"
<mjg_>
dminuoso: so happens i'm paid to do freebsd right now
<mjg_>
> In addition, the LOCK prefix can be avoided when the spinlock is released. The CPU guarantees that writes to aligned uint32_t are atomic, and therefore the code to release the lock could be changed to:
<mjg_>
description is wrong though, it's all about ordering guarantees
<zid>
yea atomicism and memory ordering are totally not the same thing
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<mjg_>
unfortuntaely the word atomic is used to describe either when a cpu stores something in a manner where there is no intermediate state
<mjg_>
... or in a manner does not lose updates from other cpus
<mjg_>
the latter implying the former
<zid>
They wrong
<zid>
atomic means indivisible, nothing more
<mjg_>
i think on this very channel someone was surprised that atomic stores don't use actual atomic ops
<mjg_>
zid: have you seen Lost? someone recut the thing in chronological order, i'm watching that now. kind of funny
<mjg_>
but also makes plotholes more apparent
<mjg_>
:->
<zid>
nah, I generally don't watch things where they're writing it off the cuff unless it's a sitcom
<zid>
imagine GoT but they were writing it week to week, how much worse the qu- oh right season 8
<mjg_>
i was somewhat surprised to find that better call saul and breaking bad were written like that
<zid>
what almost exclusively happens is that the plot gets driven by characters doing stupid shit
<mjg_>
except with the former they knew where certain characters had to land
<mjg_>
i'm unaware of anyone fond of s8
<zid>
ofc
<mjg_>
i think even cast thinks its fucking retarded
<zid>
it was hot garbage
<zid>
it completely killed got overnight lol it was amazing
<zid>
but you're not doing it in the middle if() though?
<zid>
that should be if((flags & V_PCATCH) != 0) if so
<Ermine>
where is this code located?
<mjg_>
that does not account for further fuckery which may show up re flags
<zid>
It matches your original in semantics
<mjg_>
sure, all of it should compile to the same crap right now
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<mjg_>
i mean all 3 cases
<mjg_>
just saying your code does not account for possibly more flags needing to be slapped around
<mjg_>
my code can do it while remaining bisectable
<zid>
Not my fault
<zid>
I matched your semantics only, if it has other jobs then yea, other methods
<mjg_>
you need to rewatch got finale as penance
<zid>
If we're doing penance for things that aren't our fault
<zid>
then you owe me $1000 cus I stubbed my toe
<mjg_>
i'll better call saul
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<zid>
heat how are my streams coming along
<heat>
i thought you were on STREAMS, i was on DOORS
<mjg_>
i'm gonna implement WINDOWS
<mjg_>
.. wait
<zid>
You should implement BASEMENT, I need somewhere to keep.. something..
<zid>
Ignore the screaming.
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<zid>
This plumming convention has really poor information about plumbing
<zid>
they keep talking about wireguard and stuff
<zid>
plumbing*
<j`ey>
my coworker just got back from a plumbing conference, couldnt tell me how to fix my sink :(
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<heat>
replace all your pipes with a STREAMS stack and enjoy
<zid>
j`ey: but can he tell you how random.c works?
<j`ey>
not sure if they went to that
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<zzo38>
I had some ideas about operating system design http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/OSdesign I did not write specifications yet, and these things can be changed in future too if needed. Now you can comment/questions/request-for-clarification/complaints about it please.
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<heat>
and non-unicode just sounds stupid. why not unicode?
<heat>
what's stopping you from using utf8?
<heat>
(instead of what I assume would be ASCII)
<heat>
the "own programming language" thing is not realistic
<heat>
you either make it super usable as a command line thing, or as a full program thing
<heat>
i don't see how you can build something that's either a REPL, command line or compiled into a full program (i.e would you write a web server on it)
<heat>
the "objects are files" sounds like "everything is a file" which is ok but has been proven as a bad design (look at linux)
<heat>
files having multiple streams is an interesting idea (I think NTFS does it) but I'm super interested in how you would expose that
<sbalmos>
NTFS kind of supports it, it was heavily used in HFS+ in the System 7/8 days, etc
<heat>
the ISA emulation part makes some sense. but emulating specific instructions is a bitch
<sbalmos>
a total PITA when you look at the perspective of file servers to other clients (FTP, SSH, general NFS, etc)
<heat>
"duplicate the running state of the system" so coredumps?
<heat>
"The file system has 256 root directory entries" why?
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<kof123>
hmm zzo38 if you type up some more details about your non-utf plans i would be most curious. even just "vague plans" "reasoning" "intent" etc. it is probably of boring/limited interest here, not sure there is any good channel :D
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<zzo38>
The 256 root directory entries is that it is a hypertext file system without any usual directory structures, but you will need something to start from, and there is more than one file that you might need to start at, so for this reason, there are root directory entries.
<zzo38>
Multiple streams could also be called as multiple forks, like some systems do. The "objects" could also be as "capabilities" since it is similar to a capability-based system; some of them represent access to disk files, but some aren't disk files.
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<zzo38>
I do know about how "everything is a file" has some problems, but also some advantages, which is why my ideas have done a bit differently, in way I had considered.
<linkdd>
https://github.com/limine-bootloader/limine/blob/trunk/PROTOCOL.md there is one thing i don't quite understand here, this bootloader specifies some requirements regarding the GDT. For the 2 32-bit segments it requires, it says "limit: 0xFFFFFFFF", but in a GDT entry the limit is a 20-bit value, so it should be at most 0xFFFFF, is it an error on their part or some misconception from me?
<bslsk05>
github.com: limine/PROTOCOL.md at trunk · limine-bootloader/limine · GitHub
<zzo38>
About Unicode, I think that TRON code probably handles Chinese/Japanese text in a better way but not other languages (even though it is intended to do). Unicode has many problems, and TRON code has a different set of problems. I think that trying to use the same character set for everything is problematic for several reasons having to do with character properties and other things.
<zzo38>
There are a few things that Unicode could have been capable of well if it was designed properly, such as font fallback, some kinds of search indexing, conversion fallback, etc, although there are problems with it even for these purposes, too. (That is why I think that not using a unified character set, is better)
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<zzo38>
About programming language, it certainly will not be the best general-purpose programming language at all (C might be better for many uses, as well as others), but it would be as suitable as shell scripts, AppleScript, interactive use, and a few capabilities like SQL, but also with capabilities that it could be used as a general purpose programming language without too much difficulty.
<zzo38>
Different programming languages are suitable for different uses; they aren't meant to be suitable for everything.
<gog>
hi
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<zzo38>
Drivers could also be added for such features as heterogeneous RAID (e.g. a spinning hard drive and solid state, with data copied on both of them in case either one fails the other still works), etc.
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<zzo38>
TRON has some interesting ideas, but there are many problems with the designs and with the ideas, I think. (For example, they cannot make everything computerized; I have several reasons, including failure modes, and others. The TRON character code design isn't fitting very well any character sets other than JIS, I think; trying to fit others in is rather messy. Nevertheless, there are some things that could be made much better.)
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<gog>
myeow
<linkdd>
whenever i read "TRON" i think of the movie
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<heat>
linkdd, segments have 32bit limits
<linkdd>
heat: that's not what the documentation on osdev says
<bslsk05>
wiki.osdev.org: Segment Limits - OSDev Wiki
<klange>
And as for Limine, we do not exactly have a positive relationship with its devs.
<gog>
wiki wiki
<linkdd>
klange: the GDT article isn't, the problem i have with wikis in general is that there are a lot of pages , but if there are little references to each other it's hard to navigate
<klange>
The GDT article links to that article.
<klange>
And also has its own section that talks about granularity in depth.
<linkdd>
also, why don't you have a positive relationship with limine's devs?
<heat>
osdev discord people
<gog>
the osdev discord is not fun
<linkdd>
well that's discord's fault
<linkdd>
IRC > *
<klange>
It has nothing to do with Discord [the company or platform].
<linkdd>
that was an obvious (i thought) joke
<klange>
I don't do jokes this early in the morning.
<linkdd>
change your timezone, it's 11pm here
<heat>
jokes don't go over tcp/ip
<gog>
linkdd: omg are you whre i am
<linkdd>
gog: france?
<heat>
omgggg sameeeee
<gog>
linkdd: ew no
<heat>
NO
<linkdd>
what do you mean "ew" ?
<gog>
XD
* linkdd
is proud to be french
<gog>
i have a french friend
<gog>
she's cool
<klange>
Isn't it, like, 1am in France?
<heat>
yes
<linkdd>
damn, my clock is set on UTC again
<heat>
we were lied to, bamboozled, led astray
<gog>
it's 11pm in iceland
<klange>
Current observers of UTC±0 are Iceland and the east coast of Greenland with such placenames as "Ittoqqortoormiit".
<gog>
i wanna go to greenland sometime
<gog>
i can fly direct from here
<heat>
you could probably row directly from where you are
<heat>
like all of you fucking nordic weirdos do
<heat>
with your alternative transporation methods
<linkdd>
gog: gotta love iceland, official land of the hobbits
<klange>
That's New Zealand.
<linkdd>
there are many breeds of hobbits
<linkdd>
3 in fact
<linkdd>
we only saw 2, the first one in the movies, the second one in the series
<linkdd>
how knows, maybe there will be some future show in iceland featurig the third one
<linkdd>
i'm not yet wrong
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<gog>
i'm a hobbit
<mjg_>
that's the trilogy i skipped
<mjg_>
anyone here watches rings of power?
<linkdd>
i do
<mjg_>
opionions?
<linkdd>
lotr trilogy: 10/10, the hobbit trilogy: 5/10, this show: 7/10
<linkdd>
not perfect, still good, looks gorgeous
<linkdd>
still have the opportunity to mess things up, but they have the budget to make a great thing
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<linkdd>
there is no "wokism" like all redditors/4chan/fake tolkien fans predicted
<gog>
cancelled
<linkdd>
there are some dumb scenes, and some bad dialogues, but that's easily disregarded
<linkdd>
overall, it's good, and better than the hobbit trilogy
<gog>
i fell asleep for most of all three of the films
<gog>
i didn't even remember what happened in the prior ones since they were a year apart
<linkdd>
mjg_: and that opinion is only mine, i have read all books (lost tales, silmarillion, faerie, beowulf, etc...) played the games (shadow of mordor/war, battle for middle earth, etc...), so i do know the lore quite well.
<gog>
ok
<heat>
it's jumping over the rtti
<linkdd>
still that is only my opinion and others might differ