<bslsk05>
www.kickstarter.com: VisionFive 2 - open source quad-core RISC-V dev board by StarFive Tech — Kickstarter
<geist>
Yah i still haven’t gotten my visionfive 1
<geist>
Need to cancel that order, it’s pretty clear they ain’t shipping it
<mrvn>
2x ethernet? So 10MBit/s?
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<mrvn>
" **Super Early Bird** is a special version, which has different Ethernet ports, one support 10/100Mbps speed, other is 1000Mbps only. But other features same as normal version." Wow, I was half right.
<geist>
Yah I’m guessing they have some sort of pin shortage on the soc so can’t drive a full GMAC or whatnot
<geist>
Or whatever sort of phy interface they’re using
<mrvn>
It doesn't say but I assume the later models will be 2x GBit exclusively?
<mrvn>
or did they find the pins for the speed negotiation?
<davros1>
Hah yeah I guess. With a chip shortage maybe a risc-v sbc is wishful thinking
<davros1>
But if the works, wow
<davros1>
If that works and ships
<mrvn>
But hey, for only 12900 S$ (9243EUR) you get 140 boards with 8GB ram.
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<davros1>
Is that the volume of the order or something
<davros1>
Min production run
<mrvn>
Innovator Package
<mrvn>
50 of 50 left
<mrvn>
Might be the minimum number of boards they can increase the production run.
<davros1>
"Pledged" is that billed ( I see £94377 pledged / 24000 goal)
<mrvn>
davros1: that is reserved on your credit card but not yet withdrawn.
<mrvn>
Save to say that project is going to get funded.
<mrvn>
Oh no. They removed the WiFi from the board so now you have the choice of an M2 Wifi or M2.key storage but not both.
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<davros1>
Ah yikes
<mrvn>
USB WiFi dongle is also an option
<davros1>
I am only just discovering the joys of m.2 after having deprived myself of it, keeping my old pc going as long as possible
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<mrvn>
davros1: I got sick of cheap USB stick being dead slow and dying and bought myself an M2.key USB adaptor. Works like a dream so far.
<davros1>
Yeah those look awesome and seemingly a great way to complement the un-upgradable Mac drives
<davros1>
Definitely on my list
<mrvn>
Good to have around in case your laptop dies and you need to get a file from it.
<mrvn>
(which is actually why I bought one in the first place)
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<wxwisiasdf>
Huh, I keep getting IRQ 0xE8 firing endlessly even after i sent an EOI
<wxwisiasdf>
anyways, any useful docs on laptop mouses?
<Mutabah>
They're usually just PS2/USB
<wxwisiasdf>
Hmm okay
<mrvn>
Sending an EOI just means you are ready to receive the next one. It doesn't turn of the interrupt signal on whatever chip generates it. Whats 0xE8 anyway? Did you remap the PIT to 0xEx?
<mrvn>
PIC even
<mrvn>
in which case I think you also need to EOI the PIC2
<wxwisiasdf>
mrvn: PIC remapped to 0xE8 and 0xF0 respectively
<wxwisiasdf>
yes i realized it was the pit
<wxwisiasdf>
(that wasn't the issue through, just a symptom :P)
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<zzo38>
Is there FOSS clone of BTRON that has more work on it? (There is B-Free but seems to be incomplete and abandoned. Also, improvements can probably be possible, such as using 64-bit timestamps, to avoid year 2053 problem)
<klange>
What exactly are you looking for from BTRON? Most of its ideas weren't really OS-related and ended up in applications. The underlying OS components used by the original reference implementation were part of ITRON, which eventually T-Kernel, which then spun off µT-Kernel, which is 1) still maintained, and 2) source-available with an odd in-house license.
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<zzo38>
I think eCos is a FOSS implementation of partially of ITRON, although it isn't BTRON and CTRON and MTRON. I know that many of its ideas aren't OS-related, but some are, and some of them could be improved (in some cases, by things that would be a part of the operating system).
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<zzo38>
TRON apparently has a hypertext file system, not Han unification, TRON Font Traceability System, and the file format it uses too (I have written a program which can partially interpret a TRON file). However, like I said there are also some problems with the design (I think the number of files is limited to 64K and this is an inherent limitation of the file format, is another one).
<zid>
It's racist against chinese?
<zzo38>
Allowing links separate from the data is one idea (this requires support from the operating system). Another idea would be using the same format also for command-line interface (a bit similar to what TempleOS is doing). Also, the type for date/time can be D instead of W, and only the most negative number means current time instead of all negative numbers doing.
<klange>
It's a Japanese system that predates Unicode, so... probably, yes, actually.
<zzo38>
Actually TRON includes both Japanese and Chinese characters, and can distinguish between them, unlike Unicode.
<geist>
i vaguely wonder if the µkernel that nintendo implemented for the Switch has any TRON influences
<zzo38>
I don't know. I have not looked at details for Nintendo Switch kernel.
<zid>
geist: ask jon?
<geist>
hmm?
<zid>
mr. mayo
<geist>
yeah, what about?
<zid>
about the switch kernel
<zid>
he wrote the hdmi drivers and stuff for it
<geist>
ag
<geist>
ah
<zid>
we used to talk about how it's so fucky with chargers because they refused to wait for the usb-c spec to release, and how they had 4 competing internal bootloaders etc
<zid>
so he knows a fair amount
<zid>
(switch is an nvidia shield)
<geist>
yah
<geist>
fun fact i learned: there's an LK in there
<clever>
something ive wondered, is what usbc altmodes its using for the hdmi, and if it can still get usb3 at the same time
<zid>
He used to be on libera but he stopped connecting a few months ago :(
<clever>
geist: in which stage/chip?
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<geist>
one of the DSPs i think
<clever>
ah
<zid>
also apparently nvidia just has the equivalent of the M1 just sat around, an ARM that can run x86
<geist>
nvidia has used LK for a variety of things, the default nvidia shield SDK uses it as the bootloader and a few other things. switch has their own loader, i think, but they kept the Lk stuff for some other bits
<zid>
but nvidia and intel have huge anti-trust things blocking them from cooperating much
<zid>
so it never saw the light of day
<geist>
well, the Denver stuff, probably
<geist>
also i think they have a bunch of the transmeta team, so unsurprising
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<zid>
arm + nvidia is officially cancelled now right?
<geist>
but the switch is a cortex-a57
<geist>
no idea
<clever>
geist: i have been wondering if there is any good list of what LK has been found within
<zid>
I just stopped seeing it in the news
<zid>
after a bunch of hype of it probably going to happen
<geist>
clever: perhaps, though i generally only comment if i can personally verify it
<geist>
there are places i know if where i can't verify it
<geist>
ergo dont mention
<clever>
yeah
<klange>
< geist> i vaguely wonder if the µkernel that nintendo implemented for the Switch has any TRON influences
<klange>
Uh, it literally is µTRON.
<geist>
ah there we go then
<geist>
i know very little of TRON, and honestly dont look much at what folks have reverse engineered for Reasons
<klange>
μITRON4.0 - it was bottom-barrel news no one cared about, I think immediately upon seeing it _wasn't_ Linux or FreeBSD.
<geist>
it may be big in japan, but it relaly seems like the TRON stuff just doesn't matter outside of japan
<geist>
there's very little push outside of there at least
<bslsk05>
en.wikipedia.org: FR-V (microprocessor) - Wikipedia
<geist>
or at least that's what objdump or whatever tool i twas using declared it to be
<geist>
and it made sense, being nikon and basically japanese only (like SH, etc)
<klange>
The TI Nspire runs Nucleus, that's a TRON.
<geist>
ah didn't know nucleus is TRON, i knew about that
<geist>
honestly if TRON is as clean as the nintendo switch kernel api, i'm not improessed. the little bit of looking i did on a reverse engineering wiki implied it was pretty tossed together
<klange>
It's also [incomplete/uncertified] POSIX.
<geist>
like, works, but is full of security holes
<geist>
and not a lot of, oh i dunno, clean api. seems to be all over the place, very get-it-done looking
<zzo38>
I do think that TRON could have been better designed; there are some interesting ideas but some of the way they ended up doing it isn't as good as it could have been.
<zzo38>
(Even so, I would have wanted to see a FOSS implementation of BTRON as well as CTRON, instead of only Personal Media Corporation)
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onering is now known as Beato
<zzo38>
I have many ideas about designing operating system, including: I/O transactions, system call interface proxy, file streams with operating-system-handled links to other files (including to parts of files and to specific versions of files, if desired), I/O lists, message bus, and many others, including some of which are inspired from other operating system designs (TRON, BeOS, Hurd, TempleOS, Plan9, etc).
<zzo38>
One other thing can be that you can run a program whether or not it uses the same instruction set of the computer it runs on (although it is slower if it isn't native code).
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<geist>
huh, guess that was a pile of splits
<klange>
network go boom
<kazinsal>
eventual re-convergence is technically high availability
<klange>
Eventual consistency [of who is in the channel]
<kazinsal>
the self-healing algorithm is taking a nap, please wait on the line, your call is important to us
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<mjg_>
> The scalability of the Windows kernel has evolved over time. For example, Windows Server 2003
<mjg_>
introduced per-CPU scheduling queues with a fine-grained lock, permitting thread-scheduling decisions to
<mjg_>
occur in parallel on multiple processors.
* mjg_
mumbles something about windows nt scalability day in 1997
<bslsk05>
www.gotw.ca: The Free Lunch Is Over: A Fundamental Turn Toward Concurrency in Software
<mjg_>
> Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 eliminated global
<mjg_>
scheduler locking during wait-dispatching operations.
<mjg_>
hehe
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<mjg_>
too bad i don't have access to high ocre windows, nor any idea how to profile it
<mjg_>
(is that even pssible for end users?)
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<mjg_>
btw speaking of solaris performance
<mjg_>
ENTRY(membar_producer)
<mjg_>
sfence
<mjg_>
ret
<mjg_>
SET_SIZE(membar_producer)
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<zid>
They're really bad at spelling member
<Ermine>
lol
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<joeyaa>
hello
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<joeyaa>
i'm interested in OS dev for years but don't know where to start without getting overrwhelmed. Assembly, C, OS design, architecture? What to learn first ? thanks
<zid>
well, what do you know now
<zid>
A programming language?
<joeyaa>
Mostly web languages, php mysql js etc
<zid>
Learning C would be a good step then
<joeyaa>
actually know C but not very deeply
<zid>
Then you can learn assembly and an architecture
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<zid>
(my recommendation as usual is the gameboy)
<zid>
and your own desktop
<joeyaa>
gameboy ? you mean gameboy games in assembly <?
<zid>
gameboy as in gameboy yes
<zid>
The cpu is nice to hand write for, and the architecture is very understandable
<joeyaa>
thanks for the advice :)
<joeyaa>
have you managed to build an OS ?
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<netbsduser>
i made my first attempts at osdev in 2008 and got nowhere because at that time i was at what in psychology is called the 'unconscious incompetence stage'
<netbsduser>
i was quite incompetent at the task of turning out an OS and i didn't know what deficits in understanding i had. almost 14 years later and on my second serious attempt i've gone much, much further
<netbsduser>
the reason is that in the intervening time i have worked on various things on-and-off which granted me a much more thorough knowledge of what it is that an OS even does. adapting some netbsd drivers for my Amiga 2000, implementing a smalltalk VM, and a series of works on service management ("init systems") on unix-like systems are probably the major elements thereof
<joeyaa>
how far are you ? never went further than a bootloader with bios functions
<netbsduser>
i have no interest in bootloading since it's really quite boring, so i used Limine which gives me a sane state to start with. i designed and implemented a VMM patterned after Mach/BSD VM and NetBSD UVM and have generally used that as my springboard into other areas
<netbsduser>
e.g. i patterned the VFS such that it would facilitate implementing a tmpfs in which every regular file node is backed by a VM object of anonymous memory, so that there is a minimum of copying (only read/write() copy; mmap() is a straight mapping of the VM object)
<netbsduser>
as to how far it is, it can run GNU BASH, Coreutils, and almost GCC and Binutils (they exposed a very tricky deadlock i've stuck myself with, and i am taking the opportunity to properly set out a lock ordering so that it doesn't cause me further problems)
<mjg_>
joeyaa: bootlader stuff is not really the first step in osdev, despite being first running code you can possibly write
<mjg_>
joeyaa: in fact that bit is mostly for people interested in that bit alone, the rest uses things like grub
<joeyaa>
i dont understand every technical terms here, but thanks netbsduser :)
<joeyaa>
ok mjg_, so you suggest making an os with an existing bootloader ? you land in real mode already right ?
<netbsduser>
this is why i opted for limine; i wanted to have a nice, sane starting state in long mode ready to actually do the interesting things, rather than bash my head against uefi or the bios, and limine is among the very few that provide that
<mjg_>
i'm pretty sure the wiki describes all of it
<mjg_>
unless someeone messed it up while i was not looking
<mjg_>
there are even ready-to-hack hello world kernels
<netbsduser>
joeyaa: no worries, the greatest recommendation i can give is to know what you do not know. i could not get anywhere with osdev until i knew that; that's the precondition for learning what you do need to know
<mjg_>
> Testing your operating system (Real Hardware)
<mjg_>
lol
<mjg_>
i wonder how many people did that
<joeyaa>
i did test a hello world bootloader in real hardware back in the days, but the mobo does not work already, is it possible i broke the bios ? (it spins but no video output)
<mjg_>
i know it is possible to break or brick your hw, but i can't say what are the options
<mjg_>
if back in the day is long enough perhaps there is a jumper you can flip to reset the bios
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<mjg_>
ultimately old enough hw could just break on its own, ty;ical problem is corrosion
<joeyaa>
only 2 years ago maybe, tried the jumper with no success
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<demindiro>
Regarding USB: does the class/subclass/protocol in the device descriptor matter at all or could I just look at the interface descriptor?
<demindiro>
Also, regarding HID: For anything other than keyboards & mice I need some sort of "chain loader" to load the appropriate driver based on HID descriptors I think? But I don't seem to be able to identify what kind of inputs a device can send. From what I gather the necessary information should be in the data returned by GET_REPORT but it's all
<demindiro>
zeroes.
<demindiro>
I'm not able to find any hints in QEMU's source either (other than that GET_REPORT just returns keypresses or whatever).
<bslsk05>
github.com: initial port of little-kernel to vc4 by cleverca22 · Pull Request #259 · littlekernel/lk · GitHub
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<mykernel>
thanks for making me read intel manual for straight 12 hours, i have fallen in love with it and it solved all my life issues
<rpnx>
I am trying to figure out how to solve a problem without making the solution ugly. I am cross compiling some code. There is a library that is needed to compile as part of the standard library implementation on platform A (my kernel), but the library would also be useful on platform B (Linux Mac Windows) for examining stuff related to platform A, however I don't want to make a new standard library for platform B. I am using CMake.
<rpnx>
Any suggestions on how to structure this?
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<rpnx>
ok, i figured it out
<rpnx>
a bit ugly but will work... add_subdirectory, and include_directories make a return
<rpnx>
Turns out this way everything can implicitly link to them
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<netbsduser>
fuse is a strange library
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<mrvn>
rpnx: what it the problem? You setup the code to cross compiler and then you compile for the <arch>-<kernel>-<libc> triplet of your choice.
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<mrvn>
arm-rpnx-librpnx and x86_64-linux-gnu
<mrvn>
s/librpnx/musl/ or newlib or whatever libc you use
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<netbsduser>
my first fuse fs used the "high level API" and i found it irritating to have to manually parse paths (and of course sometimes you really wanted to get the second last element's node, then the name of the last element, e.g. for create()). i preferred NetBSD PUFFS which is node-oriented instead of path strings oriented. i was surprised to discover that low level fuse is, too. as far as i'm concerned it's much easier to deal with
<rpnx>
uh, the problem was trying to compile rpnx-dtbreader as part of rpnx-klibc
<mrvn>
netbsduser: the high level stuff is good for overlay filesystems. Where you redirect the functions to different filesystem. Anything using block devices should use the lowlevel thing.
<mrvn>
Networking can go either way.
<rpnx>
mrvn: also, clang/llvm and gcc do not support my target, i have to use "none" for target :)
<mrvn>
yeah, that is a problem till you are self hosting and have gcc/clang fixed.
<mrvn>
In GNU Make I just translate the arch triplet into CC=arm-elf-eabi-c++ for my kernel. Or whatever prefix you need.
<netbsduser>
mrvn: in my case i had been doing a linux cgroupfs emulation for BSD, i used a sort of hybrid of a traditional representation of a filesystem (combined inodes and dents into a single sort of node) but with special treatment of lookup under particular folders (these were the virtual files)
<mrvn>
sounds like having nodes instead of paths is more useful.
<netbsduser>
even for this case i found PUFFS easier (which has a node-oriented interface.) i can certainly see how the pathnames-based API could be useful for some but i think it's been misnamed
<rpnx>
Do you know how to get exceptions working?
<rpnx>
by any chance
<mrvn>
rpnx: yes. But that's arch speciufic, complex and ugly. Why do you want to?
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<netbsduser>
i might rather call it the "pathname-oriented api" and the "inode-oriented api"
<mrvn>
Forget about returning exceptions from syscalls. That's so ugly you really don't want that. And exceptions inside the kernel? *shiver* What if you forget to catch one?
<mrvn>
netbsduser: fair description. Lowlevel also lets you splice. Which can be nice.
<rpnx>
then the kernel would panic. Which is better imo than forgetting to handle an error
<mrvn>
rpnx: std::expected
<rpnx>
like using a null pointer from malloc
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<mrvn>
std::optional
<rpnx>
also i'm trying to reimplement most of the standard library where possible, with the exception of stuff like I/O
<netbsduser>
i have heard from an NT-lover that windows uses SEH exceptions to handle copyin/out between userspace and kernel memory, which is somehow exactly what feels to be right for windows
<rpnx>
well, printf and such would be included
<mrvn>
rpnx: writing your own printf is a right of passage
<netbsduser>
mrvn: by allah, i had no idea it permitted splicing
<rpnx>
std::puts already works. :)
<rpnx>
But va_args seems to be provided by standard library D:
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<rpnx>
so I need to reimplement that...
<mrvn>
rpnx: va_args must be provided by the freestanding compiler.
<netbsduser>
i am implementing a filesystem atm with fuse-lowlevel as a prototype before i import it to my kernel, now i'll even be able to make it more performant
<rpnx>
what freestanding compiler?
<mrvn>
rpnx: any.
<mrvn>
rpnx: and each
<rpnx>
llvm doesn't support freestanding mode.
<rpnx>
well. clang doesn't
<dh`>
given that people build kernels and embedded systems with it, that must be false
<mrvn>
llvm has compiler-libs (or something named like that) that provides core stuff
<rpnx>
You can but not with -ffreestanding at least
<rpnx>
and I think it requires you to provide your own stdlib, like I am doing
<rpnx>
So, more accurate to say libc++ does not support freestanding.
<dh`>
% clang -ffreestanding -c foo.c
<dh`>
%
<rpnx>
maybe I am just using the wrong target triple then
<rpnx>
or something compiled without support
<mrvn>
rpnx: if you can use "none" then you have freestanding
<rpnx>
huh
<mrvn>
That's what none is for: I have no user-space / libc support stuff, built a freestanding binary.
<mrvn>
As dh said you couldn't compile your kernel if you didn't have freestanding support, at least to the amount of not trying to link a libc and crt.
<mrvn>
dh`: I tried googling for "clang compiler-libs" but no luck. What't the project called that provides some of the core support stuff like libgcc does for gcc?
<bslsk05>
github.com: rpi-open-firmware/rpi4-to-rpi3.tcl at master · librerpi/rpi-open-firmware · GitHub
<clever>
`adapter driver sysfsgpio` and `sysfsgpio_jtag_nums` tells openocd to just grab some gpio from /sys and start bit-banging the jtag protocol
<clever>
the rest tells it how to debug an rpi3 over jtag
<rpnx>
So all I would need is jumper wires?
<clever>
yep
<clever>
look sysfsgpio_jtag_nums up in the openocd docs, to see what jtag pins its listing off, then lookup the jtag pinout for the pi3, and wire them together
<clever>
then you just run `openocd -f ../rpi4-to-rpi3.tcl` on the pi4, and it should detect the pi3, if its been enabled in config.txt
<clever>
> `enable_jtag_gpio=1` in `config.txt` configures the stock firmware to allow arm jtag
<rpnx>
ok great I'll bookmark that page
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<heat>
rpnx, -ffreestanding is definitely a valid upstream LLVM flag
<heat>
it might be that you're accidentally using apple's clang
<zid>
I know apple computers are bad heat but there's no need to make fun of them and say they make clang noises when they operate
<clever>
:D
<clever>
zid: tell me where the pageup key is on a mac
<zid>
how would I know
<clever>
you cant, it doesnt exist :P
<rpnx>
Oh, you know what. I was misreading the warning. It's complaining about the flag when it's compiling assembly files.
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<mrvn>
I should add jtag support to raspbootin
<mrvn>
make a little shell prompt with jtag commands in the loader so I can just hook it up to another pi for debugging as needed.
<clever>
mrvn: as the debugger or target?
<mrvn>
debugger
<clever>
ah, that should be somewhat simple
<clever>
target is harder, there are registers that must be set before the arm starts
<mrvn>
raspbootin is my old chainloader that loads the kernel over serial so I don't have to remove the SD card on the PI all the time. The port breaks far too easily.
<clever>
i just use netboot or usb-dev boot to solve that problem
<clever>
even the pi1 can netboot now
<mrvn>
Now I only need a bunch of POE hats for PIs.
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<geist>
FWIW, there is a pageup key
<geist>
on a laptop it's a combination of fn + up/down arrow to synthesize it
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<geist>
but on a full keyboard there's a pageup/pagedown
<klange>
My old thinkpad has dedicated page up / page down :)
<geist>
it was fresh on my mind cause i had an argument with someone at work the otherd ay about whether or not old mac keyboards had a pageup/pagedown key
<geist>
turns out yes they did, but it was i think insert that has classically not been on mac keyboards
* \Test_User
has 2 page up/page downs, one with an alternate function when used with the fn key (main purpose page up/down), and the other on the nuberpad
<\Test_User>
(on my laptop)
<geist>
as well as obvious prtscren/scroll lock, etc
<klange>
ptrscrn is what i miss the most
<clever>
klange: what about its brother, sysrq!
<\Test_User>
I have both, with alt toggeling which (and sysrq is actually marked)
<geist>
i do remember pause was really nice on DOS machines. was pretty frequently needed
<clever>
geist: ive heard scroll-lock did similarly on linux text console
<geist>
yah, i think so
<klange>
My very boring mechanical keyboards have sideprinted SysRq labels on their PrtSc keys :)
<clever>
my sun keyboard with rubber domes has the same
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<mrvn>
A classical keyboard has 2 PgUp. One dedicated key and on the numpad.