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<mrvn>
geist: Making the syscall interface something with type safety and higher level language than C is one of my big problems too.
<mrvn>
It's the whol eproblem of serializing and deserializing network traffic but local.
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<kazinsal>
me: why am I having heat issues with my CPU
<kazinsal>
also me: damn that layer of dust on the radiator is *opaque*
<zid`>
If it isn't describable as a 'carpet'
<zid`>
you cleaned it too early
<kazinsal>
the dregs of a can of duster gas later and my idle temps are down a whole ten degrees
<zid`>
I'm not sure my current heatsink is especially capable of growing carpets, sadly
<kazinsal>
load temps down 15
<zid`>
it's a through-design with two fans
<zid`>
it blows its own dust off
<zid`>
I used to get carpets on those weak stock style coolers a lot
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<kazinsal>
I've got a two fan radiator with the fans pushing air through
<zid`>
you need MOAR CFM
<zid`>
If it doesn't sound like a jet turbine is it even Trying
<clever>
i had a laptop many years ago, where the cpu fan ran at idle, and youtube with the lid closed (external monitor) would thermal throttle to the point that it cant even youtube
<kazinsal>
eventually when I do a CPU/mobo upgrade I'm going to turn this 8700K into my "new" server and I'll probably replace the stock fans with noctuas
<clever>
after i cleaned the heatsink, it was performing too well
<kazinsal>
big quiet air pushers
<zid`>
arctic p12s are 56cfm which isn't bad for such a quiet fan, I miss my yate loon though
<kazinsal>
because I don't know how well ESXi handles liquid coolers
<clever>
the fan would shut off when idle, then turn back on, which make it more anoying!
<zid`>
it was 90cfm and sounded like a blender trying to eat marbles
<zid`>
I might downclock actually, heatwave rn
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<zid`>
but adjusting the voltages down to actually make use of that will be annoying and crashy.. so maybe not
<kazinsal>
yeah if we get another 40+ C heat wave this year I don't think my air conditioning is going to keep this thing functional
<zid`>
it's 8am and currently.. 21C
<zid`>
33C expected
<zid`>
I've got no AC, I just have old 120mm fans jammed into my window :P
<kazinsal>
the three greatest things about my new(ish) apartment are air conditioning, a fibre termination in my entrance hall closet, and underground parking
<zid`>
nice
<zid`>
mine's ex council
<kazinsal>
definitely would have not survived last summer's heat dome if I didn't have AC
<doug16k>
kazinsal, you can still get water coolers that are PWM controlled by the system and don't have asinine usb connection
<kazinsal>
yeah, unfortunately mine's a USB based one because Gamer(tm)
<kazinsal>
which is fine for my current use case of Windows desktop
<kazinsal>
but might be a bit of an annoyance when it moves to the role of ESXi host
<kazinsal>
then again I don't expect to be running the thing at full blast on all cores in that role
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<mrvn>
When you said water coolers I thought for air conditioning.
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<geist>
May also help to have some better filters on the intake to the case
<geist>
I have to say i dont hav much dust build up in my computers but then i usually keep at least one HEPA filter running on the room, so that probably helps immensely
<zid`>
I'd struggle to put an intake over mine
<zid`>
do they sell square meter ones
<geist>
Well sure if you dont have a good case for it then it ain’t happening
<geist>
But most of the cases I’ve seen that are just plain old rectangular towers have some facility for an intake filter
<geist>
And if you keep it sealed up such that everything has to come in through the proper intakes you can filter a lot of crap there
<geist>
Ie not a missing side of the case, etc
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<geist>
Also i think there’s a bit of an art to balancing intake and exhaust fans. In general if you have more exhaust than intake you’ll create a negative pressure zone which in theory causes the case to tend to collect dust bunnies
<geist>
If you have a lot of intake fans it should create a positive pressure that will tend to blow them out
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<mrvn>
don't see how that would make a difference. If you have dead zones then dust collects there.
<mrvn>
best to not let the dust in in the first place.
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<kazinsal>
yeah I think a lot of the problem in my case (heh) is that there's a bizarre gap and some panels between the exhaust from the radiator and the outside world and it makes dust buildup a problem
<kazinsal>
just gotta remember to duster gas the fucker every 2-3 months
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<yopodentio>
hey
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<gog>
hi
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<zid`>
gog what's the weather like in iceland today
<gog>
bipolar
<gog>
been that way for a few days
<zid`>
It's currently 31.4C here
<gog>
nice
<gog>
it's like 12 here
<psykose>
want
<j`ey>
not nice,its terrible
<zid`>
It's not supposed to get this warm at moscow's latitude, but here we are
<gog>
i would love a 30 degree day
<zid`>
It's nice if you can escape it
<j`ey>
or have aircon
<gog>
i grew up in a place where those were normal in the summer so+
<zid`>
It's so warm the bees outside are overclocked and doing 500mph
<gog>
yessss
<gog>
overclock the bees
<zid`>
I think one hit a wall earlier, I heard crumbling mortar
<gog>
loil
<FireFly>
this weekend'll allegedly be 35°C here, which is too darn warm
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<gog>
ima come to the uk for the weekend
<FireFly>
it's 25 currently, which I'm cool with
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<bslsk05>
en.wikipedia.org: Projection keyboard - Wikipedia
<zid`>
gedamo you disgust me
<GeDaMo>
:D
<sbalmos>
oh admit it, you want to go all TRON virtual tabletop keyboard too
<zid`>
absolutely not on your life
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<sbalmos>
interesting. the fuchsia source checkout script doesn't include the bootloader
<geist>
depends. which bootloader are you talking about? for what platform?
<sbalmos>
I am assuming gigaboot for x86?
<geist>
yah that's there
<geist>
it should be in i think src/bootloader? or maybe zircon/bootloader? it just got renamed somewhere along the way
<sbalmos>
I've got none of the above. I know it's zircon/bootloader in the repo navigator. but it wasn't pulled down locally.
<sbalmos>
huh, looks like it may now be src/firmware/gigaboot ?
<geist>
ah yeah, possibly there
<geist>
yah okay, i thouht we had renamed it, but that seems to be where it is
<geist>
that's the UEFI based app that loads zircon on UEFI based machines
<sbalmos>
right
<geist>
for other more bespoke situations zircon either has a multiboot shim to work with that, or on various arm machines relies on uboot/etc to know how to load it
<geist>
in general we're trying to standardize on uefi where possible, but it's not always the case
<sbalmos>
nah, I'm just starting at my usual baseline starting point, UEFI entrypoint ;)
<geist>
okay
<doug16k>
I was shocked to find that xtensa register windowing throws an exception, and the kernel saves out registers (overflow) or brings registers in (underflow), in an exception handler
<doug16k>
sounds like that might occur awfully often
<doug16k>
64 registers, 16 visible
<doug16k>
I guess you only "scroll" it half the registers so you are in the middle when it returns from that?
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<geist>
doug16k: yeah that's what sparc does too. i never fully grokked how that works in recursive situations (like tossing an exception while you're taking the exception)
<geist>
but i think it's something you set up very early
<geist>
also the whole mechanism of spilling things or where to spill it to gets complicated
<geist>
iirc when you enter a frame you reserve space for a register spillage, but just dont do it so that the exception can spill it when it needs to? maybe? i forget
<geist>
or the kernel has to keep a separate spill buffer somewhere and remember where to restore to
<geist>
it all seems like too much complexity for what it's worth
<geist>
iirc itanium has something similar, but they decided to do it automatically i think, like the hardware remembers where to spill to and does it automatically
<doug16k>
sounds neat on paper. sounds like nothing but register variables
<doug16k>
kind of like an analogy of virtual memory, for registers
<doug16k>
feels like endless registers
<doug16k>
if you keep making calls, more registers just become available, from user perspective
<doug16k>
in xtensa, the call instruction has a field that says how much to bump the register window, return too
<torresjrjr>
ddevault
<torresjrjr>
wjoop
<torresjrjr>
whoops
<doug16k>
if you wanted to be mean, it's an extremely complicated way to try to avoid pushing/popping callee preserved registers
<geist>
i think in general it's considered to be a dead end technology (register windows)
<geist>
modern superscalar stuff makes most of that obsolete
<geist>
actually surprised to hear xtensa has it, i thought it was mostly designed as an embedded cpu. those tend to not do things like that, and err on the side of simple (ie, microblaze or nios 2)
<mjg_>
you keep reminding me of sparc
<geist>
i guess it's designed to be more of a DSP like high performance thing
<mjg_>
and associated bullshit
<geist>
yah sparc honestly i haven't had too much interest in, even considering i'm generally interested in all architectures at least for historical purposes. i read enough about it that i kinda decided, ehhh
<doug16k>
you can pick the ABI. register windows or no register windows. they say the register window abi is faster
<geist>
it's not novel enough to be interesting, and then it has a bunch of needless bullshit
<mjg_>
you are not sun-flavored?
<geist>
ultrasparc (v9) might be more interesting if nothing else because it is a software TLB miss architecture
<mjg_>
i was perplexed to find it has software tlb
<mjg_>
sorry, that's the one i meant :-P
<geist>
well, i have a few sun boxes, but they're all v8, whcih IIRC *does* hae a more traditional page table?
<mjg_>
i remember watching a video with one of the cpu designers
<geist>
i had a sparc v9 years ago, but got rid of it. now they're kinda expensive on ebay so above the threshold of what the hey
<mjg_>
about the history of the cpu
<mjg_>
if you did not know any better you would think it's the best shit ever
<geist>
iirc they basically took the stanford design and went with it, whereas berkeley had the mips design
<geist>
(or maybe vice versa)
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<geist>
competing grad student projects made into hardware
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<geist>
but at the time (late 80s,etc) they were still good designs. i dont tknow of at the time any sparcs were ever known to be paritcularly high performance, but i think they at least held pace with the rest of the risc machines
<geist>
and of course sun made some pretty big boxes out of it, though the architecture may have had little to do with it
<geist>
but like a 20 core machine in 1992 or so was kinda a big thing
<mjg_>
don't get me started on solaris vs multicore
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<heat>
why do we prefix libraries with "lib"
<heat>
when did that become a thing and why
<heat>
it's pretty odd
<heat>
i need a historic deep dive down the rabbit hole
<mjg_>
heh, now that you mention it, i never wondered about the v
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<doug16k>
wow. there are separate RFWO and RFWU instructions, return from window overflow, and return from window underflow on xtensa. that's interesting
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<doug16k>
at one point you could just cat together a bunch of .o right?
<doug16k>
linkers didn't even insist on an index
<doug16k>
for lib files I mean
<mjg_>
oh?
<doug16k>
ranlib just indexes a bunch of concatenated .o essentially, afaik
<doug16k>
that doesn't explain why .a isn't enough and they put lib prefix on it
<doug16k>
maybe .a is the concatenated .o files and putting lib in front means "and I ranlib'd it too and there is an index"
<doug16k>
that's my guess
<klange>
.a files are an actual archive format
<doug16k>
I mean historically
<klange>
historically
<doug16k>
why does ranlib exist
<klange>
they were _the_ archive format before ustar
<klange>
because reading an archive is slow
<doug16k>
how can it not have an index
<klange>
even ustar still has the same problem, you have to read the whole thing to find out what files are in it
<doug16k>
who creates it with no index?
<klange>
it's a generic archive format!
<doug16k>
that some other program has to screw with? and add new stuff?
<klange>
indexes are extra bytes
<klange>
that's more space on your tiny gigantic hard drive!
<graphitemaster>
how dare you need to know what files are in a file and where they are, who do you think you are
<graphitemaster>
the file mage
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<klange>
And those indexes are specific to the use of the archive format for storing object files, as they list symbols
<klange>
look at the actual steps of making a .a, it's just "run the archive tool to add a bunch of files" and then "run this tool to add the very-specific-to-this-use-case index, maybe, optionally, up to you"
<doug16k>
you mean now
<doug16k>
not on a 286
<klange>
the fuck is a 286, this stuff was written in the 70s
<doug16k>
ok
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<klange>
fwiw I don't run ranlib, my archives do not have an index, and they work fine, so I don't know what doug is talking about
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<clever>
i suspect its just a performance thing
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<clever>
how long it takes the linker to find a given symbol
<klange>
ar was the pre-ustar archive format, it was entirely generic; the usecase didn't need the improvements of tar/star/ustar, so the C toolchain stuck with it
<klange>
why ranlib is a separate tool is because everything is separate tool; ranlib does something very specific to the usecase of "this archive is a bunch of object files that need to be treated as a library", so that's not something the archive tools is going to support by default - separation of concerns and all that
<klange>
(ranlib actually _isn't_ a separate tool in the gnu toolchain)
<klange>
(since no one uses ar for anything else anymore, that functionality _was_ baked into it)
<clever>
ar is also used by .deb files i believe
<heat>
wasn't deb .tar?
<klange>
nah, deb is all tar
<clever>
you can unpack a .db with `ar x`
<clever>
inside the ar, is .tar files
<clever>
so its both!
<clever>
[nix-shell:~/Downloads/t]$ ar x ../cncnet_1.0_all.deb
<mjg_>
what does file(1) say
<clever>
this produces a control.tar.gz, a data.tar.xz, and a debian-binary
<clever>
cncnet_1.0_all.deb: Debian binary package (format 2.0), with control.tar.gz, data compression xz
<clever>
file knows its also a debian package, and is hiding the ar nature
<heat>
"no one uses ar for anything else" is that a challenge?
<heat>
package format based on ar?
<heat>
maybe I'll send archives to people in .a.Z
<heat>
"consult your system's legacy UNIX utilities in order to unpack it"
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<klange>
tar/star/ustar solve real problems with ar, which is why normal archive usage has moved away from it
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<kazinsal>
I think the linux standard base people decided that ar should go away because it's a dev tool and *checks notes* the world's most popular operating system for doing software development on doesn't need dev tools in the standard distribution
<FreeFull>
Hm, binutils on Arch has ar
<klange>
Yes, it's still part of the C toolchain
<heat>
kazinsal, you want a toolchain everywhere?
<kazinsal>
hell yeah if you're touching a linux you should have a full local toolchain
<heat>
every docker container just grew by 1GB because of binutils + gcc being part of the LSB
<psykose>
love to carry around 400MB of the base toolchain in everything just because
<kazinsal>
what's the point in open source or "free software" or whatever you want to call it if you can't turn juicy UTF-8 into machine code
<heat>
well, you can't turn juicy UTF-8 into machine code because then you get source code exploits
<heat>
ASCII only or riot
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