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<pgiarrusso>
Does anybody understand why the opam dependency solver is so bad? The solutions it finds are always technically correct, yet so wrong
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<pgiarrusso>
my best experience was when a benchmarking loop of `opam install coq-stdpp; opam uninstall coq-stdpp` kept flipping some other library (either `num` or `zarith`) between two versions. The timings being off was not the most surprising thing…
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<pgiarrusso>
I noticed hints that they are now using a MaxSAT solver, and you can set optimization metrics, but I have still seen strange behaviors that did not make much sense.
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<d_bot>
<sim642> Did you solve the constraint problem by hand or how are you so sure that the dependency version didn't have to change?
<d_bot>
<sim642> I guess you could also try making that dependency invariant and see if opam complains about a conflict then
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<d_bot>
<Emile Trotignon> But you can do `Stack.(push 1 (create ()))` which may be nicer and you still avoid conflict
<d_bot>
<Stalker> ah thanks
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<d_bot>
<Pluton> Is ocaml good for making programming languages
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<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> I would say yes because pattern matching with good typechecking help a lot
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Is it like worth learning it in 2022
<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> do you know other languages ?
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Python and basic C++
<d_bot>
<Pluton> And ive tried stuff like Ruby , Java , C#
<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> python begin to have pattern matching but I find it weird. gcc use c++ so it is doable but use recent idioms or prepare to debug memory issues. Java and ruby can't tell. If you want to design a language OCaml has concept not in theses languages so it could be a good inspiration
<d_bot>
<Pluton> So OCaml would be an inspiration. But like whats the reason you would make your next project in OCaml rather than C++ or C
<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> To be totally fair. Try to do a toy language like int + int and string + string in those language with same tool (use parser generator for both or for none)
<d_bot>
<Pluton> To see which one is easier/better for that
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<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> Yes you will see quirks of each language
<d_bot>
<Et7f3 (@me on reply)> With c++20 it begin to be a good challenger so I don't know
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Ok thanks alot.
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<dh`>
anyone inexperienced enough that they still consider learning another language a significant task will almost certainly benefit from learning more languages, whether or not those languages are "useful"
<d_bot>
<ArJank> Learning ocaml is def a significant task alright :triggered_ocaml:
<dh`>
eh. once you know how to program, any language is just new syntax and a new standard library to get familiar with
<dh`>
if you haven't got that level of facility yet, more exposure to the way different languages do things is a good thing
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<d_bot>
<ArJank> yey
<d_bot>
<ArJank> Why are u texting through a bot
<d_bot>
<NULL> Read the description of the channel
<d_bot>
<ArJank> woah
<CalimeroTeknik>
dh`, or maybe once you know a programming concept, using it in any language is just a formality, but if it's one you don't know of, you need to learn it first
<CalimeroTeknik>
ArJank, from our perspective *you* are talking through a bot
<d_bot>
<NULL> There's also the unlearning part when you get to a language which is not OCaml
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<CalimeroTeknik>
is there? I don't know, I have used many languages, not among which OCaml
<d_bot>
<NULL> Having to work without sum types is difficult when you're used to it
<d_bot>
<NULL> them*
<CalimeroTeknik>
thankfully, those are starting to become available everywhere
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<d_bot>
<NULL> Eh, I strongly dislike Scala's version of sum types even if it is supposed to fully support functional programming
<CalimeroTeknik>
what is the problem, no tagged unions?
<CalimeroTeknik>
I doubt that
<d_bot>
<NULL> You declare constructors as subclasses of a class
<d_bot>
<NULL> Tagged unions is what I was calling sum types
<CalimeroTeknik>
eh, it's not that bad
<dh`>
calimeroteknik: yes, except that "knowing how to program" includes more than just knowing some programming concepts, it's also about knowing how to string them together effectively
<dh`>
anyway, sum types are extremely useful for writing compilers and interpreters and not so much elsewhere
<dh`>
C has gotten away with unions for forty years not because C programmers are masochists but because the issue doesn't often come up in other contexts
<d_bot>
<NULL> I prefer having constants be constructors when possible instead of ints hidden behind a name
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Is this bot made in OCaml?
<d_bot>
<NULL> (Discord answers don't make it through the bridge)
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Decoded that means. That the guy cant see my replies?
<d_bot>
<Pluton> That aint even a bot. Thats the webhook right?
<d_bot>
<NULL> That they won't see which message you were replying to (including who sent that message and that it was a response)
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<d_bot>
<Pluton> @dh`#0000 is this a webhook
<d_bot>
<NULL> What do you mean by webhook ? This is a bridge to IRC
<d_bot>
<Pluton> What is IRC?
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<d_bot>
<leviroth> The bridge is not in ocaml as far as I know. It's some open-source thing; can't remember the name.
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Oh
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Bc sending msg through discord webhook is like 5 lines of code in python
<d_bot>
<Pluton> How much would it be in OCaml?
<d_bot>
<leviroth> About the same
<d_bot>
<Pluton> As far as ive seen OCaml code it seems easy to type
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<d_bot>
<leviroth> IRC is an older, less centralized chat protocol.
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Oh so using webhooks and whatever IRC uses it connects the 2 general chats ig
<d_bot>
<NULL> That's what a bridge is, yes
<d_bot>
<Pluton> How does it look from their side?
<d_bot>
<Pluton> I mean we have webhooks what do they have to get msgs
<d_bot>
<NULL> What do you mean by "webhook" exactly ?
<d_bot>
<Pluton> The thing they use to send the msgs
<d_bot>
<leviroth> Yeah, I think they use webhooks for some features. I do not think they are using webhooks for generally sending and receiving messages. (Can you even use webhooks to receive messages?)
<d_bot>
<Pluton> To receive message. No
<dh`>
UTSL
<d_bot>
<Pluton> But to send yes
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Its very simple to send messages through webhooks as you only need to send a post request to 1 website
<d_bot>
<Pluton> And the reason im guessing they use webhooks is because bots can easily create them and they can customize the name of a webhook and profile picture.
<d_bot>
<Pluton> This is how easy it is to send a msg through a webhook (in python)
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```py
<d_bot>
<Pluton> import requests
<d_bot>
<Pluton> requests.post(webhook_url , data = data)
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```
<d_bot>
<Pluton> I wonder how it would look in OCaml
<d_bot>
<leviroth> Sure but once someone has implemented the websocket part of the api in your language (in this case, go) and you're already using websockets anyway, it doesn't really matter how simple it would be to use a webhok. Because whatever additional complexity there is in the websocket is already handled for you.
<d_bot>
<Pluton> I mean it seems like matterbridge has its own little wrapper
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Around the discord api. Thats very cool
<d_bot>
<Pluton> I mean this part looks confusing ngl
<d_bot>
<leviroth> Things are bound to look strange if you're unfamiliar with them. I agree with others that the most obvious differences are 1) lack of parens and 2) there are more explicit conversions because I'm not using a giant kitchen-sink library like `requests`
<d_bot>
<leviroth> Oh, and there's no map/dict/object literal syntax, so you have to spell out the JSON using more basic language constructs.
<d_bot>
<leviroth> I think the only reason it looks confusing is because `requests` takes the JSON that you give it and does most of that for you
<d_bot>
<Pluton> So this creates a json like object and strigifies it
<d_bot>
<leviroth> If you were writing the python version by using the lower-level urllib2 module it would probably look similar
<d_bot>
<leviroth> Yes, with the additional step that it wraps that string in a type that represents specifically strings that are the bodies of HTTP requests
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<d_bot>
<Pluton> Whats the best resource to learn OCaml i see there arent alot
<d_bot>
<hockletock> I've received excellent help in discord 🙂
<d_bot>
<leviroth> I've generally heard good things about "OCaml from the very beginning" (which I think was recently made freely available online) and the Cornell CS course that's taught in OCaml: https://cs3110.github.io/textbook/cover.html
<d_bot>
<leviroth> And, yes, being able to actually talk to people is immensely valuable.
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<d_bot>
<Pluton> Im following that rn but why did he do
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```
<d_bot>
<Pluton> let _ = print_endline "Hello world!"
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Instead of just
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```
<d_bot>
<Pluton> print_endline "Hello World!"
<d_bot>
<Pluton> ```
<d_bot>
<Pluton> It seems like `let _ =` is useless
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<d_bot>
<NULL> At toplevel / module-level, you either chain definitions or you write expressions separated by `;;`. The latter is often considered uglier (at least by me) and is preferred for REPLs where the return values are used in some way. Therefore, you often group effectful expressions in a "dummy" definition like this. I would have written `let () = ...` to ensure the return value is unit
<d_bot>
<NULL> As a beginner, the "uglier" choice is still fine
<d_bot>
<Pluton> Hmm ok so its some advanced thing ig