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<mort>
apparently the Mali-G610 was released in 2021, and apparently ARM claims to have "worked with collabora" on Linux stuff since 2020, so what's up with the fact that the Linux driver for Mali-G610 is still not ready
<mort>
this is actually not me complaining, this is me genuinely asking, I had no idea it's been almost 4 years
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<robmur01>
mort: Because what Arm supported Collabora on initially was open drivers for Mali Bifrost (G76 etc.)
<robmur01>
the significant amount of new stuff for G610 was all still reverse-engineered
<robmur01>
I'm not sure how involved Arm is now - whether it's purely the kernel driver or more - but that's a very recent shift
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<mort>
very weird that they'd officially collaborate (heh) with Collabora on some drivers but then leave Collabora to reverse-engineer other drivers
<chewitt>
ARM's business model didn't change with the appearance of lima/panfrost
<chewitt>
they were sensible enough to understand that the efforts would be successful and it's better to support them and have influence on the outcome
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<mort>
what part of their business model makes it beneficial to not have a working GPU driver on Linux though
<chewitt>
but "support" means access to better documentation and a place to ask questions
<chewitt>
it's still up to "the community" to create drivers and correctly interpret the documentation and ask the right questions to get the answers you're seeking..
<chewitt>
ARM already provides a working GPU driver on Linux
<mort>
no, they used to
<chewitt>
(under license, and needing closed-source blobs)
<mort>
yeah, but it doesn't work
<mort>
it works only on xorg-xserver-legacy and Linux 5.10, it's like saying you provide a "working GPU driver" for Windows without mentioning it only works on Vista
<chewitt>
it probably works for the companies that licensed it for their use-cases
<chewitt>
Linux 5.10 is rather 'new' by downstream bsp standards
<mort>
True, but that still means they haven't supported Linux for 3 years
<robmur01>
Arm doesn't strictly provide drivers, they provide a driver development kit to licensees who then build their own drivers
<chewitt>
true..
<robmur01>
if Rockchip only choose to support shitty old Android BSPs, that's on Rockchip
<mort>
the driver ARM provides is an X11 userspace driver
<chewitt>
provides publicly..
<chewitt>
there are normally other variants available .. to licensees, under terms
<robmur01>
and the truth is that most SoC vendors who license Mali do only care about Android, so Android blobs is all they ship
<mort>
I would be very surprised if ARM has a kernel/MESA driver which they would have provided to Rockchip but which Rockchip decided not to care about
<robmur01>
Arm do not have a Mesa driver
<mort>
exactly
<chewitt>
they'll have an OpenGLES driver, but not a mesa driver
<chewitt>
"same same, but different"
<mort>
uh
<mort>
there's no connection between those things? A MESA driver can support or not support OpenGL ES, a driver which supports OpenGL ES can or can not be part of MESA
<chewitt>
I can compile Kodi with support for OpenGLES provided by mesa, or using libmali
<robmur01>
Mesa is just a project which provides GL/VK/etc. drivers for various hardware, it's not a thing in itself. What it does is equivalent to what proprietary driver stacks do.
<robmur01>
(functionally, I mean)
<mort>
"proprietary driver stacks" do different things
<mort>
it's similar to how nvidia's proprietary driver works, nvidia is split between a kernel component and a userspace component just like the MESA drivers are
<robmur01>
yes, they often include other stuff like video codecs too
<mort>
the ARM driver is special in that the driver is a purely userspace driver AFAIU, hence the dependency on the legacy xorg stuff
<robmur01>
that is incorrect
<mort>
hmm what's the role in the xorg legacy userspace driver infrastructure thing then
<chewitt>
but also partly true as the development kit that SoC vendors license from ARM, can be used to output libs for different use-cases
<chewitt>
so e.g. RK thinks Linux = must be using a desktop and (in their labs) all desktops use Xorg
<mort>
where in this whole mess does blame fall on Rockchip
<chewitt>
creating blobs that support gbm requires RK to compile blobs that support that use-case; which requires licensing that capability from ARM
<mort>
the fact that ARM only provides an xorg driver falls on ARM, doesn't it?
<mort>
or does ARM actually also provide a non-xorg driver to people who are willing to license it
<chewitt>
in the past I knew the RK engineer that built their libmail blobs :)
<chewitt>
ARM licenses a development kit that SoC vendors can use to output libmali blobs that suit the licensed use-cases they need
<mort>
right but that "development kit" is a bunch of source code which can be compiled into this libmali blob right
<chewitt>
Android and Xorg and Linux (non-desktop) are all license options
<mort>
does ARM provide a "development kit" which can provide proper drivers which you could throw at Linux 6.1 running Wayland to those willing to license it?
<chewitt>
e.g. Amlogic screwed Linux support on their S912 chipset by only licensing Android
<chewitt>
so there are no public "Linux" blobs
<chewitt>
but they do exist (confirmed in-person)
<mort>
right but dos ARM provide a "development kit" which can be used to build generic GBM drivers which work on Linux 6.1 and Wayland
<chewitt>
"Wayland" is the other license option I was forgetting
<chewitt>
and if you use the right compile options you can create a 'gbm' variant that doesn't actually need Wayland
<mort>
that's presumably the generic GBM driver? I don't think you can make a driver which works only on Wayland? Though I'm not entirely sure on the details there
<chewitt>
Wayland depends on GBM, GBM doesn't have to depend on Wayland (but the default build options will do this)
<mort>
interesting
<mort>
and ARM provides a generic GBM driver which will work with X or Wayland or whatever you wanna throw at it, to those willing to license it?
<chewitt>
fun fact .. Amlogic's gbm libmali blobs wouldn't exist without the RK developer sharing some info on build commands (which I relayed to Amlogic devs)
<chewitt>
ARM provides a development kit .. you license features .. you build and ship stuff within that featureset
<mort>
I understand that, that doesn't answer the question
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<mort>
I'm trying to understand what exactly falls on Rockchip and what exactly falls on ARM here
<chewitt>
ARM provides a public kernel driver that interfaces with userspace blobs that the SoC vendor compiles
<chewitt>
what those blobs support .. depends on what they licensed from ARM
<chewitt>
Android, Linux Xorg, Linux Wayland are the options IIRC
<mort>
I don't understand those options
<chewitt>
and GBM (only) is a subset of Wayland; based on how you compile it
<mort>
I thought X could use GBM drivers
<chewitt>
I'm fuzzy on the correct explanation
<chewitt>
but for Mali GPUs .. no
<chewitt>
Xorg needs libmali .. which needs the vendor kernel driver
<chewitt>
Wayland via libmali .. needs the vendor kernel driver
<chewitt>
Wayland via mesa .. needs an open-source kernel driver, e.g. lima/panfrost/panthor
<mort>
yes I'm not talking about mesa here
<mort>
if the vendor kernel driver is a generic GBM driver I don't understand what part is Wayland- or X11-specific
<chewitt>
the 'gbm' version of libmali .. needs the vendor kernel driver
<chewitt>
libmali is just the think that provides GL/GLES/CL/etc. to userspace
<chewitt>
s/think/thing
<mort>
okay, and what prevents the gbm vendor kernel driver from working in wayland and X11
<chewitt>
the arm kernel driver is agnostic to the userspace function
<chewitt>
it's not 'gbm' or specific to wayland or xorg
<chewitt>
it's the userspace libmali blobs that are hard-compiled for a specific use-case
<mort>
and why does the userspace blob have to care
<mort>
I thought the userspace portion was also pretty much compositor agnostic these days
<chewitt>
because that's how ARM makes money :)
<phh>
hum I've never heard anyone paying Arm for drivers
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<chewitt>
investing lots of time/effort in creating open-source drivers does not support their licensing business model
<chewitt>
hence they don't do it
<chewitt>
they are sensible enough to understand that "the community" will do it anyway, so they provide info (when asked) and answers (when asked)
<chewitt>
it's entirely up to the community to do the work though, and to ask for the right things
<mort>
phh: end users don't, but rockchip and qualcomm does and provide the drivers to their users (I think)
<chewitt>
correct
<phh>
mort: uh I've never paid for any rockchip bsp, and I've had many
<mort>
phh: but rockchip paid ARM to put the mali drivers in the BSP, and then they gave you the BSP
<chewitt>
no, but RK paid license fees to ARM to provide a bsp that includes mali.ko and the userspace blobs
<phh>
qualcomm yeah sure. Don't buy a SoC from an american company if you want long-term support.
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<phh>
mort: how do you know that? I highly doubt that
<chewitt>
fortunately there are entities out there who are keen to see open-source support, who fund teams like Collabora to do the reverse-engineering and question asking
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<mort>
phh: I'm mostly just parroting what chewitt said
<chewitt>
but customers (SoC vendors) this is ye old "would you like it fast or cheap?" question
<mort>
anyway what's up with the 5.10 limitation then, surely that's on ARM
<chewitt>
fast = libmali, closed-source but available today
<chewitt>
cheap = mesa, open-source, support might take 2-3 years to mature
<phh>
mort: I don't know, I have Mali vendor module on 5.15, and it's just an opensource LKM, it can be patched to support any kernel version without much headaches
<chewitt>
and cheap assumes someone else funds the work or there are community devs working pro-bono
<chewitt>
phh: correct, because e.g. Amlogic licensed stuff from ARM and ships the needed blobs for use-cases
<chewitt>
they learned their lesson on S912 and these days they license Android + Wayland
<phh>
chewitt: the blobs aren't really "for use cases"... they are generic gnu/linux, generic android
<chewitt>
not sure about the Xorg stuff .. it's not in demand among their customers so maybe not
<phh>
Arm might frown at you if you ask for musl though
<chewitt>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<chewitt>
I'm off to cook dinner .. I think we 'did' this topic ;)
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