<midfavila>
as i said, if you have a poor credit score, your interest rates are much much higher
<midfavila>
and your likelihood of qualifying for financial products like credit cards and insurance is much lower
<riteo>
dilyn: uhhh rust is still a bit too annoying for me to use, I'm waiting for the toolchains to mature, as in, gcc-rs backend and similar
<midfavila>
because you're seen as more likely to default or miss payments etc
<midfavila>
the problem is that people in north america have effectively seen wages shrink since the 70s
<midfavila>
while the cost of everything else has grown
<midfavila>
exponentially
<riteo>
yes
<midfavila>
for example, the median house price in canada is 17x the average wage
<midfavila>
and growing
<dilyn>
I use llvm as the whole toolchain so it's "less" annoying, still very annoying
<midfavila>
back in the 70s you could get a mortgage on a house with a few months of savings and a strawberry or two
<midfavila>
but, as i'm sure you know, things such as
<midfavila>
food
<midfavila>
shelter
<midfavila>
medicine
<midfavila>
etc
<midfavila>
are kind of non-negtiable
<dilyn>
but they're finally at damn near 500/600 coverage of coreutils, so that's basically better than sbase
<midfavila>
negotiable
<midfavila>
so when you have an expense you literally need to survive come up and your wages or salary (or pension) isn't enough to cover it...
<midfavila>
...you need to take on debt. and then that debt builds, and prevents you from exercising labour power against your employer, because if you rile things up you might get fired
<midfavila>
and if you get fired, you lose your income, have to declare bankruptcy, and lose everything
<midfavila>
so you end up trapped in a spiral of taking on more debt to meet basic needs which forces you into accepting worse and worse conditions under threat of having your life ruined
<midfavila>
and basically you just end up working until you die at 23 from dysentery because your class warfare card was declined at the local hospital and you were thrown out for not being able to pay 300$ for a tylenol and some stitches or some shit
<midfavila>
it's not nearly as bad in canada because we're living in a communist utopia over here but it's still pretty dogshit
<riteo>
I see
<riteo>
so uh, what's the interest rate applied to
<midfavila>
anyway the prevailing theory from most people i've spoken to is that luigi was motivated to act against the system because of that. it's just speculation afaik because they haven't released his manifesto
<midfavila>
riteo, your medical bills
<riteo>
so they do increase
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
rapidly
<midfavila>
because compound interest
<riteo>
all right
<riteo>
got kinda confused before
<riteo>
that's still dumb
<midfavila>
it's a lot of information and i'm not known for being coherent at the best of times lmao
<midfavila>
but yes it's extremely dumb
<midfavila>
that's capitalism
<riteo>
no all the info was coherent
<asimov>
midfavila: you live in canada?
<midfavila>
asimov, yes
<riteo>
it's at the "so the debt increases" that was confusing me
<riteo>
because you said no
<midfavila>
rip my bad
<asimov>
how is the economy?
<midfavila>
asimov dogshit
<asimov>
hmmm
<riteo>
dilyn: btw coreutils is not exactly my ideal goal
<midfavila>
bread is 5$ a loaf for one step above industrial sludge and there's no work and all of our social services are collapsing
<riteo>
my only goal is posix compliance, with all useless shit included if it so may be
<midfavila>
as usual quebec is based, ontario is annoying, and alberta is incredibly cringe
<midfavila>
but everyone is fucked rn
<riteo>
quebec is based?
<midfavila>
always
<riteo>
what do they do differently
<asimov>
and usa economy?
<midfavila>
riteo not be american
<asimov>
riteo is from russia?
<midfavila>
asimov well they're about to enact 25% tariffs on their biggest trading partners and dont realise theyre sleepwalking straight into a disaster
<midfavila>
yes
<midfavila>
riteo is a russian hacker
<riteo>
yes
<asimov>
hmmmm
<midfavila>
his codename is the big bolognese
<midfavila>
you dont wanna mess with him
<midfavila>
he'll break yer kneecaps
<riteo>
mamma mia do you read the logs asimov
<midfavila>
lemme tell ya
<riteo>
i eat pizza
<asimov>
riteo how is russia with all that shit in 2 years?
<midfavila>
LMAO
<riteo>
no asimov is joke
<riteo>
like
<riteo>
im italian
<midfavila>
asimov we're bullying you
<midfavila>
on the internet
<asimov>
okay
<midfavila>
we're cyberbullies
<midfavila>
you need to stop us
<midfavila>
our reign of terror will otherwise know no end
<asimov>
i remember you said some ago you're russin
<asimov>
or somebody else
<riteo>
no really jokes aside it's a bit funny because we joke a lot about my italianess
<asimov>
anyway
<riteo>
no worries asimov
<midfavila>
i think that's illiliti
<midfavila>
didn't he disappear to avoid getting sent to ukraine or w/e?
<asimov>
riteo: how is italia economies?
<riteo>
I mistake people a lot too
<riteo>
asimov: im baby and I'm living a bit under a rock rn
<riteo>
but I'm a bit more worried about the politics
<midfavila>
yeah italy is kind of fucking insane lmao
<riteo>
as in, we got fucking fascist rn
<riteo>
like not even trying to hide it at this point
<midfavila>
THE GANG IS GETTING BACK TOGETHER
<asimov>
lol
<midfavila>
GERMANY AND ITALY WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
<dilyn>
riteo: my goal is primarily gnu-less idk nearly as much about "simple"
<asimov>
yeah kinda
<midfavila>
born too late to explore space, born too early to not die under crippling debt loads, born just in time to die in world war three
<riteo>
lmao
<midfavila>
i can't wait to be drafted and sent to a country i can't find on a map to die for reasons i can't fathom
<asimov>
is easy for a foreign to get a job in italia?
<riteo>
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<riteo>
let's say that theh current politicians don't like that
<riteo>
like, asimov where are you from
<midfavila>
yeah hating certain groups of people is kind of their deal
<asimov>
i'am from brazil
<riteo>
uh
<midfavila>
that's like asking if it's easy to get into canada right now
<riteo>
so outside eu
<riteo>
yeah they might not like that
* midfavila
coughs
<riteo>
tbh I don't actually know immigration rules
<asimov>
lest say you all are kinda richies fucking bastards and are saying that all is bad lol
<riteo>
I guess you could still inform yourself
<riteo>
like, with the actual documentation
<riteo>
there's surely a way and it's documented
<riteo>
might be harder but it's still doable if you want
<riteo>
you'd definitely be welcome though, at least from the people
<riteo>
also ftr there's also literal racism between italians
<riteo>
as in, southern italians are considered inferior by a lot of northen italians
<asimov>
racism is everywhere
<asimov>
we have that too
<riteo>
I'd argue that we could be barely considered "white", whatever that means
<dilyn>
welp after trying to switch to uutils I get a weird error message from mv... so...
<midfavila>
tbf i don't pay much attention to brazil, i'm sorry qwq
<midfavila>
i've only ever met two brazillians and you're one of them
<asimov>
we have a debt of the goverment
<midfavila>
well yes that's most places
<riteo>
oh yeah we all do
<asimov>
we are in billions last goverment
<asimov>
now we are in trillions
<riteo>
and people sometimes propose italexit which is exilarating
<midfavila>
but even if brazil doesn't enact policies like that, other countries do, and unfortunately with how tightly connected everything is, what happens in canada affects japan affects brazil affects europe and so on
<midfavila>
like for example the american government is freedom'ing all over the place rn
<midfavila>
and that's causing a national security panic in canada
<midfavila>
because all the people they're kicking out are projected to come running for our border. or, a significant number, anyway
<asimov>
yeah
<asimov>
that's just the world goes
<asimov>
we have that
<asimov>
with haitians
<riteo>
lmao top rug sweeping
<asimov>
venezuelans
<asimov>
all latino america
<asimov>
in second world war
<midfavila>
and because of our idiot governments screwing over the public sector since the 70s and leaving it all to the private sector our economy has stagnated
<midfavila>
so there's no houses, no jobs, nothing
<asimov>
with germans, italians, japanese, etc
<midfavila>
not that there's no work, it's just not profitable to employ people to do that work
<asimov>
we even hire cubans medics
<midfavila>
riteo is personally responsible for the downfall of brazil
<midfavila>
en route to ur location rn
<midfavila>
nothing you can do can stop the coming retribution
<riteo>
i mean my ip is there
<riteo>
so
<riteo>
I'm waiting :P
<midfavila>
you should have used todays sponsor
<midfavila>
nord vpn
<asimov>
mullvad vpn
<asimov>
you can pay with monero
<riteo>
too bad it did not accept me as im a terrone
<asimov>
super secure and super private
<midfavila>
lmao
<midfavila>
says who? mullvad
<midfavila>
"yeah sure if you give me money and all your internet activity i'll keep it *reeeeeal* secure, pal..."
<asimov>
riteo: teach me how to make a good massa
<riteo>
uhhh
<riteo>
water
<riteo>
flour
<riteo>
knead
<riteo>
yw :thumb:
<riteo>
jk lol
<asimov>
are you guys really that angry with your culinarie?
<riteo>
no I was joking lol
<riteo>
as in
<asimov>
like a ritual for massa and stuff
<riteo>
I don't know the secret
<riteo>
I think it boils down mostly to the type of flour
<riteo>
also how much you knead and the hydration
<riteo>
good "real" firebaked pizza uses sourdough to raise
<riteo>
is super hydrated and AFAICT uses semolino, which is super rough flour
<riteo>
like it's literally called "farina di grano duro 00"
<midfavila>
riteo is 00 high protein
<riteo>
I think it refers to the coarseness
<midfavila>
ooh
<midfavila>
oh wait
<midfavila>
yes i've seen that around here
<riteo>
0 is rougher and semolino is really really rough
<asimov>
gosh is that easy
<riteo>
also hard wheat
<midfavila>
the only place i've seen it is at a bulk foods store
<asimov>
yeah is kinda same
<asimov>
farinha
<asimov>
farinha para bolo
<asimov>
farinha de trigo
<riteo>
like, I think the reason italian food is "so good" compared to the foreign interpretation is that we actually keep shit super ultra simple
<riteo>
lmao yeah portuguese is even easier than spanish to understand for us
<riteo>
especially the southern people
<riteo>
like did you know that neapolitan uses "tenere" as "having"
<asimov>
tenere, tener, ter
<riteo>
as "Io tengo una macchina" instead of "Io ho una macchina"
<asimov>
ho is having?
<riteo>
yeah
<asimov>
interesting
<riteo>
it's kinda different from english
<riteo>
"avere" is the infinite
<asimov>
gosh lol
<riteo>
yeah it's irregular
<asimov>
avere | haver
<riteo>
lmao
<riteo>
do you have that in portuguese? Sorry I studied spanish at school
<asimov>
yeah
<riteo>
so I mix things up even though I know that they are different languages
<asimov>
because we have a mixed language
<asimov>
sometimes look like spanish
<asimov>
sometimes like italian
<asimov>
tengo | tenho
<asimov>
we have verbo haver too
<riteo>
nice
<asimov>
but nothing like ho in haver
<midfavila>
1:28:30 in that video, jesus christ
<midfavila>
they literally just dumped a patient who couldnt pay her bills off in front of a shelter
<midfavila>
and just left her there
<midfavila>
no shoes no clothes just a gown
<riteo>
btw yeah the thing with "real" italian food (yes we also infight /a lot/) is that we use very few (but hopefully very good) ingredients
<midfavila>
truly the land of the free
<asimov>
yeah
<riteo>
midfavila: free from clothes
<asimov>
i like itallian food
<midfavila>
italian food is tasty
<midfavila>
:o
<asimov>
but is too 'poor'
<asimov>
i mean
<asimov>
not healthier
<riteo>
also if you can understand italian you can see actual italian recipes and they are pretty simple actually
<midfavila>
idk about that asimov
<asimov>
all is too much massa
<riteo>
wait is massa dough
<midfavila>
"massa"?
<riteo>
like apulian people say that a lot but we call that just "impasto" (dough)
<asimov>
we call massa
<asimov>
pasta
<midfavila>
oh
<riteo>
oooooooooh
<midfavila>
i mean its just carbs
<midfavila>
no different than bread and shit
<riteo>
so not bread
<riteo>
pasta
<midfavila>
rice
<midfavila>
etc
<riteo>
wait pasta is... pasta
<riteo>
like, maccheroni
<midfavila>
ah yes one of the three macronutrients
<riteo>
I thought you were talking about pizza dough
<midfavila>
pasta, olives, and pesto
<riteo>
yes
<riteo>
pesto :drool:
<midfavila>
all elements necessary to synthesize an italian
<midfavila>
:3c
<asimov>
i mean
<asimov>
pasta have different ways to go in the same phrase
<midfavila>
like the powerpuff girls or w/e
<asimov>
like mass
<riteo>
yeah pasta is also a generic word for paste actually
<riteo>
like paste in english
<riteo>
and massa is mass too
<riteo>
but like, what's massa exactly? Is it plain bread?
<riteo>
focaccia? maccheroni?
<riteo>
pizza?
<asimov>
when you make pasta
<asimov>
you make first the massa and cut the macarroes
<riteo>
oh I see
<asimov>
pizza have massa
<asimov>
have pasta
<riteo>
no that's the thing
<riteo>
wait
<asimov>
farinha
<riteo>
every bready thing in italian has completely different doughs
<riteo>
same ingredients, completely different proportions and preparations
<asimov>
understood
<riteo>
shit changes even between regions, if not even more granuarly
<asimov>
we call all the same in the base
<asimov>
massa of cake
<riteo>
yeah that makes sense
<asimov>
massa of pizza
<riteo>
we say impasto
<asimov>
massa of bread
<asimov>
yeah
<midfavila>
yeah sounds like "dough" or "batter"
<riteo>
and apulians say massa too actually to say impasto of focaccia which kinda confused me for a bit
<asimov>
anyway
<asimov>
midfavila: what is the culinary coulture of italia?
<asimov>
i mean
<asimov>
never heard about
<midfavila>
idk the most italian i've gotten is garlic bread and wedding soup
<riteo>
but yeah if you want to make homemade "tray" pizza dough just use 00 flour, water and yeast. Pasta uses definitely semolino but usually homemade pasta is the egg type
<riteo>
wedding soup?
<riteo>
maritata?
<asimov>
riteo: did you know polenta?
<midfavila>
riteo yes
<midfavila>
with the meatballs and little round pastas and stuff
<midfavila>
v yummy
<asimov>
oh i typed wrong
<asimov>
not italia
<asimov>
but canada
<riteo>
meatballs?
<asimov>
never heard about canada food
<riteo>
uhhhh I heard of it but never ate it actually
<midfavila>
it's pretty similar to american and british food
<midfavila>
in quebec and the east coast it's more french/british
<midfavila>
the further west you go the more american it gets
<midfavila>
there are a few canadian things though like butter tarts and poutine
<midfavila>
ketchup chips are always popular
<midfavila>
uhhh
<midfavila>
we have these little candy bars with wafers and chocolate called coffee crisp that are amazing
<midfavila>
some other snack foods
<riteo>
oh wow poutine sounds extremely yummy
<midfavila>
canada as a truly independent country is less than fifty years old and our culture is quite young as well so it hasn't developed a lot of its own stuff
<midfavila>
riteo poutine is delicious
<midfavila>
but you have to really nail the quality of the ingredients
<midfavila>
you can't make substitutions because like
<midfavila>
there's only three ingredients
<riteo>
hey that's the italian style :D
<riteo>
/real/ italian style
<midfavila>
but if you can get good potatoes and cut and bake or fry 'em super well and some reeeeally nice cheese curds
<midfavila>
and you can make a super rich beef or chicken gravy
<midfavila>
mmm
<midfavila>
maybe throw on a little bacon
<midfavila>
top shelf shit
<riteo>
yummy
<riteo>
gotta try that as I'm actually not a super huge fan of "regular" sauces on top of fries
<riteo>
but anything else nice
<riteo>
like in berlin I tried currywurst
<riteo>
yum yum yum
<asimov>
italians and regular sauces in anything lol
<asimov>
you do even eat pizza with mayo?
<riteo>
uhhhhhh
<riteo>
that's funny
<riteo>
as in
<riteo>
neapolitans always criticize but actually a common bar "pizza" is wurstel and potatoes
<riteo>
and at least youngsters put ketchup and mayo on top of there
<riteo>
as there's no tomato sauce
<asimov>
we put mayo in anything that we can lol\
<asimov>
burgers
<riteo>
I say pizza in quotes as it's square and more dense, it's not the pizzeria-style pizza you might think
<asimov>
pizza, salad, hotdog
<riteo>
oh yeah we use ketchup and mayo a lot too
<midfavila>
mayo is tasty
<riteo>
just not on pasta and pizza
<midfavila>
has to be good mayo tho
<midfavila>
lot of the mayo here is actually "whipped dressing"
<riteo>
like fries, hotdogs, burgers, foreign stuff I think
<midfavila>
which is just vegetable oil with some spices in disguise
<riteo>
oh yeah they started using that in vending machine sandwitches as "lightweight sauce"
<riteo>
30% less fat!!
<asimov>
mayo from the oldest and biggest house in the avenue
<asimov>
the oilest burger
<asimov>
mayo maked in house
<riteo>
btw now everytime I see currywurst I my cheek hurts
<asimov>
this is the best mayo
<riteo>
because I was so hungry that I bit my cheek really hard
<riteo>
shit I'm hungry now
<riteo>
but it's almost 4 AM
<asimov>
why are you wake up in 4 AM?
<riteo>
no idea
<riteo>
I generally gravitate towards this sleep schedule
<riteo>
especially during holidays
<riteo>
old tradition
<riteo>
how do you think I chat so much with mid? :P
<riteo>
yeah that's why I have messed up schedules, although arguably I would too even if I worked
<riteo>
it's not like sleeping 2 hours ever stopped me from going to school like a fucking zombie
<riteo>
4 hours works in a pinch
<riteo>
6 hours is good
<riteo>
8 hours is too much - what is it, sunday?
<riteo>
I either sleep so much I forget what time is or not sleep at all
<asimov>
bro
<asimov>
how old you are?
<riteo>
I'm 19
<asimov>
gosh
<asimov>
i miss those years
<riteo>
how old are you?
<asimov>
23
<riteo>
I mean not that far away
<asimov>
yeah it is
<asimov>
not in numbers
<asimov>
but in time and life
<asimov>
so far...
<riteo>
I see
<asimov>
life happens when you leave school
<asimov>
anyway
<asimov>
why are you still in school?
<asimov>
you mean college?
<riteo>
yeah
<riteo>
university
<riteo>
first year
<asimov>
miss those years too lol
<asimov>
anyway
<asimov>
good luck
<riteo>
thank you
<asimov>
you probably go much further than me
<midfavila>
asimov we're the same age you're not that old lmao
* midfavila
flicks
<asimov>
nah i don't think that
<asimov>
you probably good in life
<asimov>
maybe a good job
<asimov>
i'm still in the init
<midfavila>
what, me? lmao no way dude
<asimov>
if is not that much to ask
<asimov>
how much you gain in a year?
<midfavila>
i made about 20kCAD this year
<asimov>
what is the minimum pay in CAD?
<midfavila>
in my region? fourteen dollars an hour
<midfavila>
rent usually starts at 1200-1400
<midfavila>
food is 200-300 if not more
<midfavila>
things aren't all sunshine and rainbows here :P
<asimov>
wait
<asimov>
how do your survive?
<midfavila>
becasue i got lucky. most people just
<midfavila>
don't!
<midfavila>
:D
<midfavila>
they just die
<midfavila>
the government just lets them die
<asimov>
20K if your costs are 1400-1700
<asimov>
you cant live
<asimov>
you just can survive
<midfavila>
i'm lucky because i got a place for much lower than market
<midfavila>
i pay about half of average for about 13m2
<asimov>
oh
<asimov>
make sense
<midfavila>
yeah. in my case i'm really fortunate.
<asimov>
then you get something to live
<asimov>
bro
<midfavila>
but in bigger cities
<midfavila>
say, toronto
<midfavila>
where most canadians live
<midfavila>
the median rent is more than the median income
<midfavila>
lmao
<midfavila>
and my city despite being relatively affordable has very little work so we actually have a worse homelessness issue than toronto per capita
<asimov>
arent you ambitious in life? like i thing sometimes i'm just too old and this shite makes no sense i mean life makes no sense, we are just a bunch o fucking monkeys in a rock in a universe that will end somedays
<asimov>
and sometimes i just think in do something
<midfavila>
my only ambition is to get the fuck out of north america
<midfavila>
lmao
<riteo>
i am definitely also monkey
<asimov>
like real big thing in this shit
<asimov>
but i think im too old
<midfavila>
and like maybe buy a small house some day
<asimov>
sometimes too dumb
<riteo>
btw ambitious is like, relative
<riteo>
my super capitalist brother wants to become a supertrillionaire
<riteo>
I just want to live a happy life
<asimov>
i mean i dont want money
<asimov>
money comes in life
<asimov>
i just want to make something
<asimov>
bigger than me
<riteo>
oh yeah that's really nice
<asimov>
like i dont know a opensource program that helps people
<asimov>
i distro that fits in someones mind
<riteo>
also contributing to FOSS gives that warmth inside
<riteo>
if you find doing that
<asimov>
yeah it does
<asimov>
anyway
<asimov>
i will just do something
<asimov>
this year
<riteo>
ye hope the best for you :D
<asimov>
thanks
<asimov>
and i will go to italy and canada
<asimov>
meet your people for few hours
<asimov>
kiss community reunion
<riteo>
would be nice
<riteo>
if you ever come to naples let me know
<asimov>
wow
<asimov>
naples
<riteo>
well yeah I'm in province
<riteo>
1 hour bus from naples
<riteo>
go to uni there
<asimov>
awesome
<asimov>
university of naples?
<riteo>
yes federico II
<riteo>
doing computer engineering rn
<asimov>
i'm in control and automation engineering
<riteo>
ohhh nice I have colleagues in my same course doing automation
<asimov>
lot of my friends in uni are compute engineering
<riteo>
yeah things share lotta courses apparently
<asimov>
is kinda same in my uni
<asimov>
yeah
<asimov>
we share a lotta of courses
<asimov>
microcontrollers
<asimov>
embedded systems
<asimov>
constrol systems
<asimov>
algorithms
<riteo>
I think embedded systems is a master thing over at us?
<riteo>
unless there's an exam or two about that no idea I'm still at the beginning
<asimov>
not that much
<asimov>
for me control systems are more that
<asimov>
but i like embedded systems
<asimov>
plan someday to work with
<riteo>
uh yeah right that makes sense
<asimov>
bro
<riteo>
kinda a nightmare when it comes to FLOSS but yeah embedded systems are nicec
<asimov>
we need to be in touch
<asimov>
we gonna be making a startup
<asimov>
a multinational
<riteo>
I mean we are already in touch :P
<riteo>
but if you want me by email the address is (my username) (funky symbol) posteo.net
<asimov>
got it
<riteo>
I'll put that on my website too eventually
<riteo>
just gotta find the energy to keep going as I'm a bit sick these days
<asimov>
you rent a domain or make yourself one?
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<riteo>
I rented a domain for like 1€/month
<riteo>
and pointed it to codeberg.page
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<midfavila>
riteo spam bots incoming
<midfavila>
FIVE CRAZY TRICKS TO SEO YOUR SMALL BUSINESS WEBSITE - NUMBER 7 WILL KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF!?!?!?!?
<riteo>
safpoihadsfkasjdfadlhfasdfjsadfjhdsf
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<xdream8>
i am pretty shocked at how slow busybox grep is compared to gnu grep or ripgrep
<solaare>
busybox tools is light on code, but less code =/= faster code, same with suckless stuff
<xdream8>
yeah its slowness shows itself especially in kiss package managers conflicting files check
<solaare>
I think its a fair sacrifice, you can't ever have it all
<solaare>
the grep tools are just another rabbit hole, I consider regular grep and ripgrep and others to be entirely different classes of tools, one is for quick searching limited files, the other is a tool specifically for massive number of files
<xdream8>
i agree with you on that
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<sad_plan>
solaare: this is even the case with more vs less code. sbase xargs will supposedly produce a larger binary, than openbsd xargs, despire openbsd's being almost twice the LOC.
<midfavila>
that doesnt surprise me in the least
<midfavila>
its not really an issue tho
<midfavila>
ease of maintenance and compliance are the most important factors for me, followed by portability and performance somewhere down the list
<midfavila>
unless its a specific application e.g. map software that does lots of crunching
<midfavila>
or compilers, scientific software, that kind of thing
<midfavila>
then performance is a little more important
<sad_plan>
I suppose sbase xargs is just poorly optimized in comparison to openbsd xargs. I couldnt personally reproduce a smaller openbsd binary than sbase xargs, but I got the exact same size. which was also somewhat curious to me
<sad_plan>
wait, no, sbase xargs ended up with 47456 bytes, whereas openbsd xargs was 47192 bytes. so yes, it is smaller. but not by a lot :p
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<l0wigh>
Hello, I'm trying to install swayfx but I have an issue with building llvm. Anyone in the same situation?
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: i built llvm just earlier today, no issues on my end. please post log. use 0x0.st or something of the sort
<l0wigh>
Seems like it's coming from AMD related code
<xdream8>
you seem to be running out of memory
<l0wigh>
On disk or ram ?
<xdream8>
it is most probably ram
<xdream8>
did you setup a swapfile or partition
<l0wigh>
I have a swap partition, but I probably never setup properly. Is swapon is necessary every time I start the computer ?
<sad_plan>
your swap needs to be mounted, but it should be taken care of by your fstab. you can doublecheck to see if its mounted by ooking at the result of lsblk. or cat /etc/mtab
<sad_plan>
wait, I dont belive swap shows in mtab
<l0wigh>
It wasn't mounted. I just did a swapon. Now it seems to be mounted
<sewn>
heh
<sad_plan>
but yes, it seems the process got killed. so it might be oom, as xdream8 said. how much ram you got? and threads?
<l0wigh>
Genfstab seems to not take my swap partition in count
<sad_plan>
it should. but it dont matter. you can just add it manually
<l0wigh>
I have 4gb of ram and 4 threads cpu
<l0wigh>
It's a 2012 MacBook air (yes, it takes ages to compile stuff)
<xdream8>
you can add this to your fstab(replace X): /dev/X none swap sw 0 0
<sad_plan>
4gb should suffice afaik. nevetheless.
<sad_plan>
xdream8: whats sw for? should it be dev/X none swa default 0 0?
<sad_plan>
s/swa/swap/ obviously
<l0wigh>
@xdream8: no need for uuid?
<sad_plan>
oh, its defaults, not default it seems. according to arch wiki
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: no need to uuid
<sad_plan>
s/to/for/
<sad_plan>
I dont use uuid at all for any of my partitions
<l0wigh>
Oh ok I'll add it later. Rebuilding right now
<l0wigh>
You guys are using kiss with more powerful computer right ?
<l0wigh>
I feel like I would need 3 days to fully configure and install everything I need
<sad_plan>
somewhat, but theres been all kinds. dilyn also used to have a macbook. compiled chromium on it, and it took 38hr or so
<sad_plan>
personally I have 8 threads and 16gb on my laptop, but recently built a new desktop with some beefier stuff
<l0wigh>
Building my kernel (which was strip down with the magic option) took 1h30
<sad_plan>
I used to use 8 hours or so to build everything from scratch on my laptop. and thats with everything more or less preconfigured
<sad_plan>
damn
<sad_plan>
how long time gcc take?
<l0wigh>
I can't remember
<xdream8>
sad_plan: as i know of 'sw' is the mount option for 'swapon -a'(or at least for swapon implementations that supports it)
<sad_plan>
laptop takes ~1hr ish. new desktop took like 1015 minutes or so
<sad_plan>
xdream8: hm, would that fall under defaults then?
<l0wigh>
I should sell my MacBook pro (running arch) and buy something stronger honestly
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: just use lighter software. takes shorter time to compile. you could also opt to use some binaries. however that feels like cheating :p
<xdream8>
l0wigh: actually i remember installing and using kiss on a core 2 laptop for some time, 1 or 2 years ago
<sad_plan>
xdream8: how long did that take? :P
<xdream8>
sad_plan: i am not sure about that but if arch wiki suggests using defaults that probably means 'sw' falls under defaults
<l0wigh>
Yeah buildong stuff seems like the only honest way to use KISS
<xdream8>
sad_plan: if i dont remember it wrong installing everything i need took 3 or 4 days at that time
<l0wigh>
I also want to go for a system that uses the as minimum ram as possible since it's some old hardware. It runs fine but some helps can make it work like a new computer
<sad_plan>
xdream8: sounds awefull to run a source based distro on something so slow..
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: you can achieve that, but optimizations often comes with a cost when building. buildtimes can double at times even
<xdream8>
sad_plan: yeah building things was so slow that i was sleeping most of the time when it was building packages
<sad_plan>
xdream8: makes sense to just run it in the background some place, and check in on it from time to time
<l0wigh>
Honestly, I would like to really tweak the kernel to remove everything that I don't need. It feels like a new step coming from arch and running almost no useless tools on it
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: then make allnoconfig is for you. make tinyconfig is also more or less the same, it just enabled couple things that would make the kernel smaller. I think its like 3 or 4 options or something
<sad_plan>
its a fun experience. building the system from ground up
<l0wigh>
I still want it to boot, I already had some issues with first my first config :')
<sad_plan>
yeah, boot first, and get to know the system properly. building the kernel over and over and over can be quite daunting. you also have to know/figure out which options is optional for you. your system will for sure break in all kinds of ways. mine did, many many times :p
<xdream8>
make allnoconfig is a torture if you dont know what you are doing
<xdream8>
so get a little bit experienced first
<l0wigh>
I might feel better going from my existing config and removing stuff that I certainly doesn't need
<l0wigh>
It seems to compile nicely now. Thank you very much !
<sad_plan>
xdream8: ive had fun with allnoconfig. it does help very much to have any kind of reference to work off of. but sure, it can be torture if youre not sure what you need and not
<xdream8>
i have had fun with make allnoconfig too but i would not recommend it for someone that is new to configuring the kernel
<xdream8>
but it is one of the best ways to learn too
<xdream8>
so it is up to choice
<sad_plan>
I agree. but it is liek learning the hard way kind of way. which can be good, but its painfull having to rebuild the kernel 50 times or so because something is broken, but you cant figure out why :p
<l0wigh>
Guys llvm compilation is still running. I hope I'll not need to do it that often
<sad_plan>
llvm isnt update all that often, luckily
<sad_plan>
however, its often backwards compatible, so you can leave it unupdated instead if you really dont wanna build it. you can also choose to build it overnight, so you dont have to sit and wait for it
<l0wigh>
Also another question. Kiss package manager doesn't manage dependencies at unistall time
<sewn>
wdym
<sad_plan>
sewn: it doesnt purge orphans by default
<l0wigh>
If I remove swayfx. It will only remove swayfx and not llvm for example
<sad_plan>
and no, it doesnt
<sad_plan>
run kiss o to view orphans, or packages which is not a runtime dependency
<l0wigh>
Ohhh thanks, I should keep this in mind
<sad_plan>
l0wigh: while you sit and wait for llvm to finish, you might want to consider looking into zswap. I think you might benefit from its use
<l0wigh>
Zswap is the compressed swap in a file right ?
<riteo>
also fun fact the marvelous 1000+ bucks macbook uses that to extend its huge 8GB of RAM
<riteo>
or at least, an equivalent subsystem under the MacOS kernel
<sad_plan>
when you think about the price here, and that fact that you have to use, or should use zram to get by, makes it sounds like a scam. wait, apple products is kinda like a scam. damn apple tax
<sad_plan>
do I hate apple? you guessed it
<sad_plan>
the price for ram and storage on their website is utterly outragious aswell
<riteo>
yeah it's almost like they live in another reality
<riteo>
I can understand all the engineering you want but more ram is "free" from an engineering standpoint
<sad_plan>
something like that. theres a funny (or sad, depending on how you view it), people line up for the upcomming new iphone each year, and you ask people what new features they cant wait to have, or looking forward to or w/e, you get the idea. and they cant answer the question, because theres is none
<riteo>
oof
<riteo>
mfw they don't even read the overblown marketing material
<riteo>
well that's just pure status symbol shit at this point
<sad_plan>
I mean, they massproduce this shit, more ram should atleast be somewhat similar to regular prices. with the minor addition of ram being soldered on. so im fine with a slight priceincrease in comparisson to ram sticks
<riteo>
nah, boards have definitely the exact same pads for all models
<riteo>
they just go unpopulated
<sad_plan>
thats exacly what it is. the iphone and other apple products isnt just another phone, tablet or w/e anymore, its a brand now. its fashion mate
<riteo>
ye that's sad
<sad_plan>
well sure, but someone has to solder them on. and im fine with a slight increase for more labor. even though its not done by a man. its machined nowdays anyway
<riteo>
it's like the very expensive "branded" shoes
<sad_plan>
correct
<riteo>
oh all right I thought you were still talking about engineering sorry
<sad_plan>
samsung has also started with this bs. so now you can buy a new samsung phone, which is likely worse, atleast software wise, for more money
<sad_plan>
no, i was only refering to cost of labor with more ram
<sad_plan>
while the ramchips cost money, theire not expensive, and theyre also massproduced
<sad_plan>
its like what supreme does. they create an artifical scarcity and jack up the prices. except theres no scarcity for apple products
<l0wigh>
Honestly, I'm using old macbook because of the retina screens
<sad_plan>
and im sure theyre great. ive never had one. hardware wise, atleast M1 and above has atleast decent hardware
<l0wigh>
Yeah best screen I've ever owned. There is ok but nothing crazy
<l0wigh>
The rest is*
<l0wigh>
Also, zswap is activated only by enabling stuff in kernel if I read the page correctly?
<sad_plan>
I belive so. you can confirm it by checking your dmesg.
<xdream8>
yeah it is pretty is to enable it
<xdream8>
s/pretty/pretty easy/
<sad_plan>
ive not really used it before myself, but im going to now on my laptop. more ram is always welcomed
<sad_plan>
xdream8: how is kiss-rs comming along these days?
<xdream8>
i am currently working on build command, writing test cases for commands etc
<xdream8>
i did not push to codeberg in a while tho
<sad_plan>
cool
<xdream8>
also i am working on adding some eye candy stuff like this: https://0x0.st/8iob.png
<l0wigh>
Anyone forked the kiss-c version ?
<sad_plan>
theres atleast one, but it hasnt really been worked on lately
<sad_plan>
phoebos has a repo for it, but last commit was 2 years ago.
<sad_plan>
I couldve sworn testuser had one aswell, but its empty.
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<l0wigh>
Clang is also a pain to compile... Please end my suffering
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<sad_plan>
if you need to recompile stuff, you might wanna use ccache aswell. will speed up compiling. but first compilation takes slightly more time as a caveat
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<l0wigh>
Arghgg... Build of scenefx fails because it can't find wlroots while it's definitely installed
<l0wigh>
Instead I got sway running, next is xorg to finally run something actually useful for me
<l0wigh>
Still wondering why scenefx failed to build
<sad_plan>
cant you run it on wayland?
<l0wigh>
When I mean running something useful, is running a window manager that I prefer
<sad_plan>
theres more window managers than sway available for wayland though
<sad_plan>
but sure, theres even more for X
<l0wigh>
Swayfx would have been nice, but can't run it. I'm personally disgusted by Hyprland. Other stuff, I don't know much (except for newm which would require too much tweaking right now)
<sad_plan>
dwl is pretty nice, if you like dwm atleast. hikari is cool, but seems to be dead. if you want something really simple. velox exists aswell. theres lots of options really, if you just take a look
<l0wigh>
I would like to take a look at swayfx (needs to find why the build fails on scenefx), niri would also be considered since I like scrollable compositor, dwl would be great, but I would honestly much prefer running dwm
<sad_plan>
hm, well w/e works best I suppose
<l0wigh>
W/e ?
<sad_plan>
whatever :p
<l0wigh>
Well this installation is temporary, it's for testing what would work best for me in the final. So I'm testing a bit of everything, any recommendations is greatly appreciated
<dilyn>
l0wigh: I wrote some articles on zswap and zram for the wiki which I used when I was running on my 2014 macbook pro
<dilyn>
also you aren't going to be able to build chromium with only 4gbs of ram -- you'll oom at the final link :v
<dilyn>
actually mold might be able to do it...
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<l0wigh>
I'll look at the link later it seems interesting. Chromium is not my goal fortunately. Surf might be the way in my case, even if it lacks some features
<dilyn>
surf is really nice, I'm a big fan
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<sad_plan>
I too like surf for its simplicity and hackability. ive used it a lot. but i find luakit to be somewhat better. it also supports wayland, so thats a plus I suppose