jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<phantomics> Does anyone know what determines the package creating the context when you (load) a file? I tried loading one and printing (package-name *package*) in the loaded code and it was common-lisp-user
<phantomics> Then I tried (let ((*package* (find-package :name))) (load ...)) and it hadn't changed. I also tried reading and evaling the individual sexprs from the file in the same (let) form, same result
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<beach> phantomics: It is the package from which the file was loaded.
<beach> I mean, the package that was the current package when the file was loaded.
<phantomics> Ok, the loading happened in a file that belonged to the desired package, but somehow printing *package* produces common-lisp-user
<phantomics> The file doesn't have the .lisp extension but I can't see how that would cause this
<beach> I can't repeat that. If I load a file while the current package is (say) FOO, the value of *PACKAGE* is that FOO package when the file is loaded.
<beach> Now, the package used when the file is loaded is not necessarily the current package when the loading code is read.
<phantomics> I'll see if I can replicate this with a minimal config, the file contains one big macro
<beach> So it must be that the loading code modifies the current package while the file is loaded.
<phantomics> There's a chain of macroexpansions leading up to this, must be something happening in that process
<beach> Must be.
<phantomics> Thanks for confirming what I thought about (load)
<beach> Sure.
<beach> As in: ,(defpackage #:foo (:use #:common-lisp)) ,(progn (in-package #:foo) (let ((*package* (find-package '#:cl-user))) (read-from-string "#.*package*)))
<ixelp> (defpackage #:foo (:use #:common-lisp)) => #<Package "FOO">
<beach> *sigh*
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<beach> Not sure what I did wrong here.
<beach> ,(progn (defpackage #:foo (:use #:common-lisp)) (in-package #:foo) (let ((*package* (find-package '#:cl-user))) (read-from-string "#.*package*))) maybe?
<beach> Oh, well.
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<jackdaniel> uh oh, we have AI slop about Common Lisp now --
<jackdaniel> 63F9C3EoqcqABKbxmqUY.WIt-A3JpZlOZjPo4diHPhUz4EXfdY9H0mEk-vpzBv3I&dib_tag=se&keywords=common+lisp&qid=1733066069&sprefix=common+lisp%2Caps%2C150&sr=8-25
<jackdaniel> uh, what an url, sorry
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<jackdaniel> 63F9C3EoqcqABKbxmqUY.WIt-A3JpZlOZjPo4diHPhUz4EXfdY9H0mEk-vpzBv3I&dib_tag=se&sprefix=common+lisp%2Caps%2C150 this is shorter
<jackdaniel> :| I don't know what's going on with amazon links, but theser are abhorrent
<jackdaniel> in any case nobody will convince me know that common lisp is not popular :)
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<aeth> yes, Amazon has terrible links now
<aeth> you can cut everything off after the ? just like normal terrible links, but the link is so messy it's not obvious exactly where this ? is
<aeth> also apparently the title part in the URL doesn't matter at all, either.
<aeth> so e.g. Advanced-Techniques-Common-LISP-Depth doesn't actually do anything in that URL
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<scymtym> just noticed that each section has exactly 12 subsections :)
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<Alfr> aeth, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DM64NSB6/ should work.
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<selpoke> are there any common lisp implementations or extensions that make it possible to make a structure inherit from a subclass of standard-class?
<selpoke> i am writing a protocol and it would be nice to have a struct inheriting from the protocol class somehow
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<jackdaniel> it isn't
<selpoke> :( i expected as much
<jackdaniel> instances of standard-class can be redefined, so the memory layout is fundamentally incompatible
<selpoke> ok
<beach> jackdaniel: What makes you say that the memory layout is incompatible?
<jackdaniel> in a structure once the allocation and order of slots is decided it can't be changed, especially when another structure "includes" our
<beach> But it could still have the same memory layout.
<jackdaniel> OK, technically that would not be non-conforming
<beach> Why "technically"?
<jackdaniel> because structures can be specified to be represented as specialized vectors of elements, so either you screw up the upgraded array type, or you do some silly things with standard classses
<jackdaniel> s/classses/classes/
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<beach> That's a strange argument, because structs can be represented as lists as well, and lists and vectors are incompatible. I thought we were talking about structs as represented neither by vectors not by lists.
<jackdaniel> if we talk about compatibility between objects A and B, we need to account for all variants of either? oh well, I have better things to do now, so have it your way
<beach> I see.
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<selpoke> beach: i am enjoying your essay http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
<selpoke> is it a chapter in a larger work?
<beach> selpoke: It is, but it will likely never be finished.
<selpoke> oh dear
<beach> selpoke: My favorite coauthor was essential for continuing, and she now has better things to do. It happens.
<scymtym> i think xof had ideas for structure classes as subclasses of standard classes (or the other way around)
<beach> selpoke: In SICL, you won't be able to inherit from a standard class, but you will be able to do something like (defclass my-struct () (...) (:metaclass structure-class)) and stucture instances are instances of subclasses of STANDARD-OBJECT, so they have the same layout. But most implementations will not represent struct instances as standard objects.
<beach> selpoke: And the reason for that is performance; Common Lisp structures were defined that way so that you won't need an indirection the way you do for standard objects.
<selpoke> i see
<scymtym> aren't there ways to implement standard objects mostly without indirection in the sense that change-class introduces a temporary indrection and the next gc removes it again? i think hayley or dougk or both mentioned something like that
<beach> That's entirely possible.
<beach> I haven't looked into such possibilities.
<selpoke> i would like to have a performant implementation of my protocol in addition to one that is easily verified to be correct
<selpoke> but i think another solution is needed
<selpoke> maybe sealing the slots or something
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<aeth> structs are either entirely pointless and there for legacy compatibility reasons, or they're there because they're useful for certain kinds of optimizations... the latter is more useful to assume even if an implementation doesn't do it
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<aeth> pretty much every CL optimization is optional, but I write code assuming it's all done.
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<aeth> however, the possibility of implementing standard-objects the same way as efficient structure-objects and then somehow removing any performance penalty is an interesting one... well, besides the method accessor dispatch
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<aeth> for now, if you want to mix and match structs and standard-objects, I think composition is the way to go? put one as a slot of the other.
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<jackdaniel> selpoke: regarding shilling a common superclass for both standard class and structure class, perhaps abusing non-portably compute-class-precedence-list is a way to go, i.e by inserting the protocol class as the second element
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<jackdaniel> and, surprisingly, it works
<jackdaniel> ignore the last commented result, it will say heya
<jackdaniel> another glorious hack to close the day ,), good night \o
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