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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<mfiano>
Naming things is hard :(
<mfiano>
Obligatory something about 3 hard things in CS and the other one is off-by-one errors.
<mfiano>
Regarding linear interpolation, and taking alexandria's function as an example, like most implementations, it names the parameters A, B, and V (usually T, but CL be like "nope"). I have an instance that computes and stores in one of its slots this "V" value to be later called. What to name this slot if I want to follow the convention of descriptively naming things...
<edgar-rft>
slot-where-v-is-stored :-)
<mfiano>
So helpful :)
<edgar-rft>
you wanted a descriptive name, now you have one
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<edgar-rft>
no matter how bad your name is, it will be better than mine
<pillton>
Wouldn't it just be the unit it represents? e.g. pixel position, time, angle
<mfiano>
This is part of a "clock" class with other "time"-named slots/accessors. This value is stored here based on timing information in the clock, for consumers of this class to use for vector algebra related things
<pillton>
Or "the domain" and "a and b" are the range.
<mfiano>
Trying to be not so ambiguous here...
<pillton>
Yeah so it is whatever the unit of time is.
<mfiano>
The unit of time is actually variable, depending on the system.
<mfiano>
THere is a slot called units-per-second, which is what the RTC will return
<mfiano>
I guess it's similar to g-i-real/run-t
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<jcowan>
Nobody alive was born in the 19C; the last one died in 2017
<jcowan>
(verifiably, anyway)
<mfiano>
A few people missed the joke it seems
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<moon-child>
mfiano: I wonder why v rather than w
<moon-child>
(for 'weighting')
<mfiano>
I don't think that's a term common to linear algebra.
<mfiano>
It's usually called "v" in math contexts, or "alpha" in color blending...but I don't think I've seen anything else
<mfiano>
err "t" in math
<moon-child>
yes; as you mentioned it's usually t, but we can't use that in cl. The question is, why choose v?
<mfiano>
because they didn't want to shadow T :)
<moon-child>
i feel like we're walking in circles
<mfiano>
I've seen coefficient and factor used, but they don't sound right at all
<mfiano>
in alpha blending, T is typically called the "alpha _v_alue. could be why
<mfiano>
Anyway, I wanted to associate the slot with interpolation, since that can't be inferred from the class it is part of. So "interpolation-domain" or "interpolation-value" is good enough
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<moon-child>
beach: dpans says: 'The Lisp reader can be used as a lexical analyzer for a more general user-written parser.' I think it's become clear that such advice should be given with caveats or not at all. I know it is not technically its domain, but thoughts on removing that sentence in wscl?
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<beach>
It's true that it doesn't quite belong in a language standard.
<kakuhen>
regarding t being taken; in math we would then resort to using τ or a cursive t
<kakuhen>
not convenient for typing depending on your keyboard i guess heh
<moon-child>
kakuhen: I was considering |t|
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<aeth>
no
<aeth>
maybe in your math
<aeth>
ime, it'd just be t* ("t-star")
<aeth>
or maybe put a ^ or a - on top but that doesn't really work out well with ASCII
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<moon-child>
aeth: I was being apocryphal :)
<aeth>
but t really is the most unfortunate name conflict in CL because usually when given a numerical algorithm you just keep the letter that everyone else uses because... they're so general, that they don't really stand for anything so variable names don't really apply
<aeth>
(sure, in Physics it generally means "time", but that's just one application of the generalized math)
<moon-child>
I think you're already giving up quite a lot compared with traditional mathematical notation; the loss of a single variable name pales
<aeth>
It matters because it's what every textbook has, so it's what anyone is trained to recognize as the "accepted" variable for a given numerical algorithm. Put differently, you don't need to call pi CL:PI since names are arbitrary, but it helps
<aeth>
It's just one variable name conflict, though, so it doesn't make it unrecognizable
<aeth>
You could switch to a Scheme reader where t is a new T and #t is CL:T, though (-:
<aeth>
It wouldn't confuse people to switch syntax just for one function, right? (-:
<moon-child>
._.
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<moon-child>
spec be like 'A type is a set'
<moon-child>
I know I've complained about this before, but I didn't realise the spec did it too
<moon-child>
and--I _get_ the choice of terminology, but it's still annoying
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<mfiano>
't' is commonly used in parametric equations, and so much of my math has to have comments to denote the translation
<akater[m]>
aeth: I guess I'd shadow t if I had to deal with equations
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<lisp123>
beach: Good morning, hope you are having a great day
<Colleen>
lisp123: derelict said at 2021.08.30 00:22:18: When lisp123 is around again, it would be appreciated if someone could point him at https://pastebin.com/91i5p1fe, he was interested in the implementation. from: VincentV`
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<lotuseater>
mfiano: and then you could use the true symbol for T, namely ⊤ :)
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<mfiano>
It depends how you look at it. CL's type system is a little different than most languages.
<lotuseater>
it is
<akater[m]>
nil is the least element w.r.t subtype. I don't think this leaves much for interpretation.
<moon-child>
I don't see why it shouldn't be a bottom type. But the spec has an interesting example: (subtypep 'nil '(member)) is either true or indeterminate
<lotuseater>
uii
<akater[m]>
Why would `(subtype nil '(member))` be indeterminate?
<moon-child>
oh, because 'subtypep is permitted to return the values false and false when at least one argument involves member'
<moon-child>
so it doesn't actually mean anything
<moon-child>
sbcl at least thinks it's a bottom type; (subtypep nil '(satisfies f)) is true
<moon-child>
ditto ccl, clisp, and abcl
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<mfiano>
Another name question: Refresh rate, frame rate, etc are the number of x's per unit of time. If refresh rate is 60 for example, then each refresh is 1/60 units of time. If I wanted to name a variable to bind 1/60 to, what would you call such an inverse rate?
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<beach>
Maybe refresh-period or refresh-interval.
<mfiano>
I like period better. Interval can connote a range or such
<mfiano>
Thanks
<beach>
Sure.
<jdz>
Isn't that frequency?
<beach>
Rate is the same as frequency.
<jdz>
Right.
<mfiano>
Yes beach is right. I'm looking for the inverse of frequency, if such a term exists.
<mfiano>
Dumb idea?: (defmacro doc (string) (format nil string)) to prevent #.(format nil "...") with ~#\newline for docstrings that span multiple lines. I don't think I ever had a need for a macro without backtick before...
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<mfiano>
I understand this could be a function and called with read-eval syntax, but I prefer the more concise, less noisy call site...thoughts?
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<pjb>
mfiano: you can also write a reader macros to define docstrings. Note that macros are not evaluated on docstring: if it's a non-string, it's not a docstring.
<mfiano>
I don't like altering the readtable because named-readtables or such taints everything all the way down to requiring the consumer of the library to switch back to the standard readtable.
<pjb>
mfiano: the readtable used to read the sources is unrelated to the user readtables.
<mfiano>
Well, the reason for using a macro was to avoid the extra syntax. I prefer my parens, thanks :)
<pjb>
mfiano: you can use a macro (or a function) if you use #. to read a string returned by the operator.
<pjb>
eg. #.(doc "foo" "bar" "baz") with new-lines, etc.
<mfiano>
I mentioned that above I used a macro to avoid that extra syntaxz
<pve>
Is there a problem with docstrings that span multiple lines?
<White_Flame>
just indentation gets weird
<pve>
oh, you mean it indents subsequent lines to column 0
<beach>
pve: You have a choice. Either it looks weird in source code because you have text that starts in column 0, or it looks weird when it is printed because subsequent lines have leading spaces.
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<beach>
pve: By using #.(format nil "...") you can use the tilde-newline FORMAT directive with an @ modifier. Then you can indent subsequent lines in source code, but those lines will not start with whitespace.
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<beach>
pve: Does that make sense you you?
<beach>
*to you
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<pve>
beach: it does, thanks
<beach>
Sure.
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<ecraven>
how does CL (specifically swank) interrupt a thread that is working? from what I understand, you can't really interrupt threads normally... does it send a signal to that thread?
<pve>
Could one "post-process" docstrings, and replace occurrences of newline-space-space-space with just newline?
<beach>
But you don't always want that.
<pve>
yeah, I guess not
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<beach>
Either way, the entire DOCUMENTATION system is broken. For one thing, it does not allow for internationalization. Furthermore, it does not allow for things like links, semantic markup, etc.
<beach>
Luckily, the DOCUMENTATION system is kind of separate from everything else, so providing a separate system for documentation won't hurt.
<mfiano>
I think "broken" is the wrong adjective here.
<pve>
I guess I meant more of a local post-processing, like for a single project where I "know" the docstrings are safe to mangle.
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<mfiano>
I did pre and post processing of docstrings the other day, albeit in my own macro. They are just strings, and you can use alexandria:parse-body to get at them.
<mfiano>
and you can surely use #'(setf documentation), even at runtime, to post-process existing ones.
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<lotuseater>
beach: And, did you do it yesterday? Going to #python and complaining about the spec. (surely just a joke)
<mfiano>
It wasn't a joke; he was demonstrating how awkward of a first comment it was.
<lotuseater>
i know, I meant a joke of mine that he would actually do it
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<lotuseater>
it's a bit when starting a new job and saying on the first day what all can be done better
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<beach>
lotuseater: I wouldn't dream of being so rude.
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<ecraven>
well, I've never worked anywhere where it wasn't true that almost everything could be done better, it was always a question of priorities and money-vs-time
<lotuseater>
beach: Yes you're very polite. :)
<lotuseater>
ecraven: "this is how it's always done" or with the Mandalorian meme
<ecraven>
since hearing that theme, I really like the bass recorder!
<lotuseater>
the music is cool. and the series itself
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<lotuseater>
or being an immortal lambda guard since ancient times must also an honorable job
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<lisp123>
Is there a setting to automatically select "No" at the prompt in SBCL when compiling a file fails and SBCL asks if you want to load the .fasl file?
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<pjb>
lisp123: are you sure that it's SBCL who's asking that?
<lisp123>
pjb: Good point, let me go through the Slime documentation and see if I can hardwire the behaviour
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<jcowan>
mfiano: The correlative term to frequency is obviously wavelength.
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<aadcg>
I'm wondering if smth can give me a hand with SBCL's function run-program
<aadcg>
I would like to run a program and to set some env variables
<lotuseater>
would totally fit into the show i'm currently watching, "Grimm"
<lotuseater>
and how are you?
<yitzi>
lotuseater: I kinda like it.
<Fade>
I'm good.
<lotuseater>
okay good
<Fade>
I think this vision of the lisp alien will not do good things for the recruitment stats. :)
<Fade>
I watched that show a few years ago.
<lotuseater>
haha yes, the cute version is indeed the best
<lotuseater>
yes me too a bundle of episodes with my ex, and now i wanted to see the whole story, very cool and as much is bound to German stuff and tales and such for me as a German it's even cooler and another point of view sometimes
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<lotuseater>
Fade: how long are you into CL now? :)
<Fade>
uhm.. well I learned lisp shallowly in the 1990's, but I converted to common lisp for all my own work when it became clear that Python was not going to be backward compatible in the 2->3 shift.
<lotuseater>
wow a veteran then :)
<Fade>
I had a lot of python code that needed rewriting, and I thought if I'm going to rewrite it anyhow, why not do it in a fast language with a good object system.
<lotuseater>
so much software still relies on python 2 ∘_○
<Fade>
that python2/3 thing has been an utter disaster.
<Fade>
python was my main language for a long time.
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<lotuseater>
in one sheet of mine i wrote just enthusiatically "the most powerful OOP system in our galaxy"
<Fade>
certainly the best one I know about.
<lotuseater>
okay also cool
<lotuseater>
in 2018 I worked some time at a company that does data science with it, so numpy, pandas, scipy etc
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<lotuseater>
Fade: and a meta one, so can evolve in the one you need too for your problem
<Fade>
I like pandas
<lotuseater>
and not fitting your problem with just the things others think are good
<Fade>
I'm playing around with vellum on a personal project I'm working on
<lotuseater>
yes me too, back then
<lotuseater>
i thought about if a port subset port would be something, then also using April (APL compiler) for it to shorten code even more
<lotuseater>
ah someone showed me vellum some days ago, for data frames
<Fade>
I haven't gone far enough yet to know how it compares to pandas.
<lotuseater>
okay
<Fade>
but I expect it will be simple to add missing features as I encounter them.
<lotuseater>
pandas is big
<Fade>
if I do.
<Fade>
the data loader ecosystem for pandas is impressive.
<lotuseater>
or this networkx python lib for doing things with graphs is also interesting
<lotuseater>
yes, so that would also be important to bring foreign people to use a potential port
<lotuseater>
"hey, surely you can your Excel 'Databases' with it"
<Fade>
I think we write libraries for the users we have, and worry about the users we don't... well, not so much.
<lotuseater>
and providing them a DSL helps too :)
<lotuseater>
"Oh this alternative pandas installation is way faster, how did Python evolve so well?" "No, it's in CL." :D
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<Fade>
yeah, I've looked at april
<Fade>
but, there's about 9000% too much syntax for me.
<Fade>
maybe if I had one of those APL keyboards.
<lotuseater>
haha ^^
<lotuseater>
hm i just use my elsewise unused windows key for it
<Fade>
I use stumpwm to manage my windows. I use emacs for almost everything else. I use nyxt for web browsing. I don't have any spare bucky bits.
<lotuseater>
cool
<Fade>
I would kind of dearly love a spacecadet keyboard
<lotuseater>
oh yes those are nice
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<lotuseater>
and the syntax is not the problem, right to left evaluation ^^ so "2×3+4" gets 14 and not 10
<lotuseater>
and for applying a function "backwards" from left the ⍨ operator is quite useful :D
<waleee>
lotuseater: then you have stuff like 1 % 3 which evaluates it's argument in left->right
<waleee>
% = j-equivalent of the APL divide op
<waleee>
÷
<lotuseater>
oho
<lotuseater>
but things like "1 2 3○2" to map functions on a value and not just values on a function is funny, so the one principle of functional programming
<lotuseater>
J is indeed also very interesting
<waleee>
There is someone who tried to write an editor in J
<lotuseater>
or this hook for eg the small c in french
<moon-child>
cedilla
<lotuseater>
right that was it, thx
<moon-child>
en français: 'cédille'
<lotuseater>
TeX and even Unicode has you covered for all cases
<moon-child>
yeah
<lotuseater>
and more for the ones nearly never gonna happen if you don't construct them :)
<lotuseater>
hmm too offtopic? but it wasn't much going on right now else. but I don't want get kicked out for being more annoying than I am apparently
<moon-child>
jcowan: i should have been clearer, I meant acute and grave are the only accents I've seen used in english
<jcowan>
Oh.
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<lotuseater>
I'm honest I can never remember which is which of the two.
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<lotuseater>
by naming I mean
<moon-child>
'grave' is mellow, not excitable, kind of low, and ` is pointing downward
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<lotuseater>
ironic when one (not me) does very heavy intellectual stuff and pulls out in instant "difficult" things without problem from memory but such simple things not :D
<moon-child>
that's how I remember it, at any rate
<lotuseater>
ah okay
<jcowan>
yes, not too many of those, but some people still write entrepôt rather than entrepot or transshipment port
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<lotuseater>
jcowan: I don't like when people write Pál (or Paul) Erdős with the normal ö in TeXed (history) math books or articles. that's with the \H instruction for the long hungarian double strokes
<jcowan>
Agreed
<lotuseater>
but apart from it, one of my favorite mathematicians and reading about him inspired me much or in "The BOOK" by Aigner and Ziegler
<lotuseater>
"Another roof another proof."
<lotuseater>
for me in the same category of those even much more very rare maverick minds like Ramanujan or Mandelbrot
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<Yehowshua>
The last line on the following let statement doesn't work because I refer to a variable define in the let statement itself.