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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<lotuseater>
Good morning beach :)
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<lotuseater>
Yesterday I looked at some code of the SICL LOOP module and realized it makes totally sense defining classes for the various specifiers. Before I just had seen and worked through the possible LOOP subset implementation given in the Norvig PAIP book.
<beach>
I guess using standard classes just comes natural to me.
<beach>
But of course, this technique creates trouble for an implementation who wants to use SICL loop natively.
<lotuseater>
It's also good for potential extensibility, or not? You said to me once that's one of the goals.
<beach>
Because CLOS must then "exist" before the LOOP module can be defined.
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<beach>
Yes, that makes it extensible.
<lotuseater>
Oh right, CLOS makes use of LOOP to come to existence... (a next hint I should keep on working through AMOP book)
<lotuseater>
Now I get what you wrote in one of the SICL papers with "certain things must exist in before to define themselves".
<beach>
But this is a problem only for people who think of bootstrapping a Common Lisp system by adding modules to a simple base system.
<lotuseater>
of course not exactly this wording
<beach>
Since my brain is too small to think this way, I decided to do it differently.
<lotuseater>
You are very modest with yourself. :)
<beach>
It's the reality. I am definitely not as smart as some people might think I am. So I have to find ways to compensate.
<lotuseater>
I thought about how it would be started if one only has the 25 special operators + Spec + the most needful readmacros, minimum for #\( and #\).
<Bike>
people tend to think about these things in terms of special operators but i strongly feel that that is not correct
<beach>
lotuseater: Yeah, good luck with that. I found I made dozens of mistake in each incremental module to add when I was thinking like that.
<Bike>
like besides the bootstrapping stuff beach is concerned with, special operators don't actually form a basis. they're just stuff the compiler can handle specially. they don't include things like cons/car/cdr that are implicitly used by any sane implementation of the operators anyway.
<Bike>
how do you do progv without being able to navigate lists?
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<lotuseater>
I didn't mean to think in that. :)
<beach>
Bike: Well put.
<lotuseater>
beach: No don't worry, I know that wouldn't work out tried by me.
<beach>
lotuseater: This incremental way of doing bootstrapping requires each module to use only the subset of the language defined by previous modules. People with better memories than mine can remember which subset to use. But I can't.
<lotuseater>
PROGV is one of these standard symbols I never used till today directly.
<lotuseater>
But OK, if one doesn't call it a CL impl, other subsets for self-educational purposes could also do fine.
<Bike>
one interesting mini thing i've run into is i have done some work on an implementation of another lisp, and the guy who defined it defines all the operators one at a time like you would for bootstrapping
<Bike>
but i found that if instead you take letrec as primitive, you can define everything much more clearly since operators can be defined in terms of each other no problem
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<moon-child>
beach: I think focusing on 'smartness' is in general a distraction, and certainly cannot be linearly quantifiable. Certainly, I don't know how to compare the 'smartness' of someone who figures out how to implement lisp incrementally vs someone who figures out how to bootstrap it using the entire language
<moon-child>
*certainly it cannot...
<lotuseater>
or to people of other disciplines :)
<lotuseater>
There is this quote "You won't judge a fish by its talent to climb on trees."
<beach>
moon-child: Sure. But I see no better way to describe how I feel when everybody around me seem to be able to do something that I can't.
<moon-child>
lotuseater: I think a more pertinent question is: when is it interesting to make value judgements _at all_? To a fish able to climb trees I might ascribe value which I wouldn't to another fish. However is it sensible to judge poorly a fish who fails to climb a tree? I think not. I think rather a fish should focus on being as good as it can, in whatever capacity it is able--whether that
<moon-child>
includes climbing trees or no
<Bike>
i dunno, once you've seen a pacific northwest tree octopus at work other fish do seem kind of inadequate
<lotuseater>
moon-child: It's mostly not, especially when judging kids in school for "you're not good in maths/sports/arts/musics etc". Everybody is different and focusing on the wrong things can destroy potential. And as nobody can do all alone people work together to achieve goals.
<lotuseater>
Bike: oh that sounds interesting :)
<Bike>
if you try to get them out of your tree with a stick they just take hold of it and thwack you. demoralizing.
<lotuseater>
Octopus are indeed fascinating. And hard to animate.
<lotuseater>
Oh it's actually an internet hoax. :D
<hayley>
Bike: I assume you saw one.
* lotuseater
checks if his inner ear babel fish is still alive and well.
<Bike>
more often you feel the pinecones they chuck than you see them
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<lotuseater>
To get some more ontopic again, I also like those jelly fish who can "reprogram" themselves (their cells) as they run to live longer. Gives a feel this idea underlies a quite deeper intention.
<moon-child>
'ontopic' hahha
<moon-child>
crispr has been advancing nicely
<hayley>
lotuseater: If you think about it, animals are just supervisor trees.
<lotuseater>
I don't know exactly what those are right know.
<lotuseater>
*now
<lotuseater>
Ah okay now from reading, I can guess what you mean.
<lotuseater>
So also this when a child process dies the supervisor process decides how to or if reanimate the other?
<hayley>
Something like that, yes.
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<lisp123>
Anybody have experience of transferring data from a CL image to Emacs via swank?
<lisp123>
Seems like I can transfer across list data, but structures seem unlikely
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<flip214>
lisp123: everything that can be serialized (eg to a string) works -- you could use JSON, XML, YAML, ...
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<lisp123>
flip214: Thanks, let me try JSON
<flip214>
S-expressions cannot reliably distinguish between key/value structures (alist, plist, hash-table) and simple lists, so they're not that well suited
<lisp123>
so basically I transfer a string
<lisp123>
and then convert it back on the Emacs side>
<lisp123>
?
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<flip214>
one possible way, right.
<lisp123>
Any other way? (just because you said 'one' :)
<flip214>
the swank protocol has a maximum size for messages, though - 6 hex digits, I believe. So you might need a different communication.
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<flip214>
well, have a plain TCP port, or HTTP, or a file, shared memory, print/scan, QR code and a camera, ...
<Bike>
i don't know what tpl is. some implementation specific thing?
<lisp123>
Dunno, when I first started learning lisp I used some guide. I realised that always set me inside package CS325, so I found what I think that code is...I will play around and should be able to figure it out. There's nothing too dangerous about that code is there though?
<lisp123>
Okay looks like that code hacked things onto the SBCL initialisation, so ignore all of the above
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<pve>
lisp123: and maybe also (swank:eval-in-emacs `(slime-set-default-directory "/path/to/my-dir/")) if you're dealing with files
<lisp123>
pve: tried the first, it crashes
<lisp123>
I guess because the file hasn't fully loaded yet
<lisp123>
q
<pve>
lisp123: the package should exist before calling that, yes
<lisp123>
Bike: so apparently TPL is an allegro package (just for FYI)
<lisp123>
pve: yes, I guess it will be difficult to set the REPL to the package while loading it via ASDF (note that I put the code after the packages.lisp file is run, but as Bike mentioned there might be some locks in place or some sort of circularity)
<pve>
lisp123: anyway, that's what i use in my "session" files.. first I load my system, then set some parameters and lastly set the REPL package and directory
<lisp123>
pve: ah I get you
<pve>
lisp123: i.e. I have a file called "session.lisp" that I load
<pve>
with basically one session per project
<pve>
(actually some projects have several session files)
<lisp123>
pve: thanks!
<lisp123>
Got it working
<pve>
no idea if this practice is a good idea
<aeth>
I just backwards search my SLIME REPL history instead of loading a session.lisp
<aeth>
Kind of works
<lisp123>
So the final trick was to write some elisp : (progn (asdf:load-system "my-package") (slime-rel-set-package "my-package"))
<aeth>
Another major distinction from what I do vs what pve does is that I run tests after loading.
<lisp123>
(and why stop there...I'll just add M-x slime to it first... and bind it to a hotkey... :D)
<pve>
aeth: I do too!
<pve>
run tests in my session file, I mean
<pve>
also I define some convenience symbol-macros and functions in the session file
<lisp123>
pve: nice, thats a good workflow
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<pve>
lisp123: and I load the session files conveniently with an elisp function "pve-load-this-lisp-file" (i.e. the session file I'm currently looking at in the buffer)
<lisp123>
Nice
<pve>
which starts a fresh slime and loads that session
<lisp123>
a fresh slime?
<lisp123>
so you load multiple inferior lisps?
<pve>
no, I mean I can't do C-c C-l if SLIME isn't running, so first it starts SLIME, then loads the file
<pve>
but I'm pretty lazy, most people would just start slime normally and then do C-c C-l :)
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<pve>
oh it was actually called "pve-slime-and-load-this-file"
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<lisp123>
Ah yes, that makes sense :)
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<asarch>
How could I easily count how many 9 are there from 1 to 100?
<lisp123_>
asarch: use the function mod for example
<lisp123_>
But I won't show you how :)
<asarch>
Great!
<lisp123_>
Another easier way
<lisp123_>
(more efficient) would be to start at the number 9, keeping adding 9 (keeping count) and exit your loop once you hit 100
<asarch>
Considering that '90', '91', '92', … also count
<lisp123_>
Oh I see
<lisp123_>
I have a solution for that, but better you try find it, its not too hard :)
<lisp123_>
(hint: think of converting numbers to strings and checking)
<asarch>
It's a nice exercise, isn't it?
<lisp123_>
I hope its not from a book ;)
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<asarch>
Actually, a friend of mine has sleep problems and she told me that last night she counted 20 9s so, I was wondering actually if Common Lisp would have an algorithm for this kind of problems
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<lisp123_>
Did you get an answer in the end?
<lisp123_>
I got 19 based on my mental calc just now
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<asarch>
I am thinking about how to resolve it using Squeak's collections
<asarch>
(loop for number from 1 to 100 do (let ((count 0) (value (format nil "~s" number"))) …)
<asarch>
However, loop also has its count and its conditional to do the job
<asarch>
But I don't how to use them yet :-P
<White_Flame>
(count #\9 (format nil ...))
<White_Flame>
so you'd use loop's summation thing
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<White_Flame>
65 chars to get a result of 20 for me
<White_Flame>
ah, 55 chars now
<White_Flame>
is there a shorter way of rendering a number to a string than format nil?
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<White_Flame>
anyway, spoiler: (loop for x to 100 sum (count #\9 (format nil "~a" x)))
<pjb>
~10R ?
<pjb>
(let ((*print-base* 2)) (loop for x to 100 sum (count #\9 (format nil "~a" x)))) #| --> 0 |#
<pjb>
(let ((*print-base* 2)) (loop for x to 100 sum (count #\9 (format nil "~10R" x)))) #| --> 20 |#
<White_Flame>
for a code golf, defaults apply
<White_Flame>
and obviously are exploited
<White_Flame>
of course, for real golfing, eliminating whitespace would be the next step: (loop for x to 100 sum(count #\9(format nil"~a"x)))
<pjb>
it could be more efficient to do it like this: (count #\9 (with-output-to-string (out) (loop for x to 100 do (princ x out)))) #| --> 20 |#
<Bike>
the number of 9 digits below 10^m is (* m (expt (1- m))), even shorter
<Bike>
expt 10 (1- m)
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<asarch>
Wow! You are awesome!
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<White_Flame>
Bike: neat!
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<zuckonit>
sup
<zuckonit>
i got emacs on my fucking phone lol
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<lotuseater>
zuckonit: cool
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<lotuseater>
But when I once used vim on a terminal app I missed the ESC key. :)
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<lotuseater>
There is an Android App names "CL REPL" to have that on your phone. It uses ECL under the hood and QML for the graphical interface.
<moon-child>
in my implementation of 'loop', 'select' will be a version of collect that makes a string instead of a list, and 'volita' will make a vector. It remains to be seen how bad of an idea this is
<moon-child>
I'm also tempted to make 'volitas' collect major cells of a higher-rank array
<lotuseater>
moon-child: ah yes, sometimes I had this situation where I wanted to directly collect into a vector. but ok, some various ways are possible
<lotuseater>
where does the word "volita" come from?
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<moon-child>
imperative form of the latin root for 'volition'
<moon-child>
but chosen mainly for mnemonic resemblance to 'vector'
* lotuseater
tries to remember that from back of his latin classes
<lotuseater>
ah it's the word for will power
<lotuseater>
now I remember, "velle" was one of those unregular verbs like "ire"
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<jcowan>
Latin vector = carrier, passenger, somewhat surprisingly
<moon-child>
'vector for disease' ~~ 'carrier of disease'--it makes perfect sense