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<Bike>
the chain of events when a class is redefined seems nasty. like, how do you update an array for more slots? when an object is updated does it have to trigger an update to any arrays it's in?
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<hayley>
Well, all the objects have to be updated at once, and some stamp/version/&c can be stored in the storage vector.
<hayley>
In effect the second idea is a very weird way of sharing a "rack" between a lot of standard instances.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<lotuseater>
Good morning beach.
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<mfiano>
polymorphic-functions looks like a nice approach to the array of semantics-changing defgeneric libraries. However, one thing bothers me, but I don't understand the code well enough to know if it can be solved.
<mfiano>
It uses GENTEMP !
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<moon-child>
o.o
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<mfiano>
pillton: You are the author of specialization-store if I recall, correct?
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<phoe>
what is the intended use case for UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE's :UNINTERN option?
<phoe>
like, why should I prefer it over calling CL:UNINTERN in the REPL?
<mfiano>
The latter requires interactive use?
<mfiano>
I imagine it's useful in combination with the symbol merging policies of uiop:define-package
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<phoe>
Yes, I'm thinking of it now - like, how exactly does it tie in the other functionalities
<mfiano>
Like, if you want to mix symbols from foo into bar and then erase all traces of bar:x that was derived from foo
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<phoe>
I need an example that is valid Lisp code - I can't see this just yet
<phoe>
uninterning a symbol that is available only via inheritance is a no-op, right?
<phoe>
so after (defpackage #:foo (:use) (:export #:symbol)) (uiop:define-package #:bar (:use) (:mix #:foo) (:unintern #:symbol)) it is still possible to refer to BAR::SYMBOL
<phoe>
so using :UNINTERN with :MIX does not seem like something useful
<mfiano>
:mix is not very useful with a single package designator anyway :p
<phoe>
doesn't matter, can be five packages instead
<phoe>
"uninterning a symbol that is available only via inheritance is a no-op, right?" is what I asked, and it doesn't matter if it's one or ten packages that are effectively USEd
<beach>
That's how I read the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry, yes.
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<mfiano>
Me too
<phoe>
OK
<mfiano>
I wouldn't read too deeply into the bad code that is UIOP
<mfiano>
It's probably only there for symmetrical reasons
<phoe>
I'm reading the docstring, that is enough for me
<phoe>
the way I read it, DEFINE-PACKAGE is meant to define what constitutes a package, instead of what *doesn't* constitute a package
<phoe>
which is why :UNINTERN is puzzling for me
<phoe>
the only use case I can imagine is when one redefines a package, and for whatever reason wants to get rid of some symbols from it along the way
<mfiano>
The exceptional situations is making me scratch my head
<mfiano>
I thought shadowing symbols are only affected by unintern for *present* symbols
<phoe>
mfiano: if package BAZ uses FOO and BAR, and FOO and BAR both export a symbol named SYMBOL, and BAZ shadows SYMBOL too
<phoe>
if you unintern BAZ::SYMBOL then you get a package conflict
<phoe>
because you have FOO:SYMBOL and BAR:SYMBOL as feasible candidates
<mfiano>
what about the no-op?
<phoe>
which no-op?
<mfiano>
the one you asked about that we agreed upon?
<phoe>
if FOO exports SYMBOL and BAR uses FOO then uninterning SYMBOL from BAR is a no-op
<phoe>
because SYMBOL is inherited from FOO
<phoe>
and there is no :USE-EXCEPT-FOR option that allows you to use all exported symbols except for some
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<phoe>
the best you can do is shadowing, but then if you unintern the shadowed symbol you get back the inherited ones anyway
<phoe>
(along with possible conflicts)
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<mfiano>
I see. To be honest I use defpackage-plus because it gives me finer control over these things
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<mfiano>
Such as :inherit-except
<pve>
phoe: I've seen trickery like (defpackage #:my-package (:import-from #:other-package . #.(other-package:a-set-of-symbols))), maybe the :unintern option could be used there to exclude certain symbols? A little far-fetched though..
<phoe>
pve: I see. that would warrant a proper filter on the (a-set-of-symbols) call, it would be cleaner than importing-then-uninterning
<pjb>
phoe: but can't you shadow a symbol without interning a new one?
<phoe>
pjb: via shadowing-import?
<pve>
phoe: sure, although I might personally handle that kind of stuff with separate import or unintern forms after the defpackage
<pjb>
or :shadow or shadow, but it seems you're right, :shadow interns a new symbol…
<mfiano>
Problem with that is package variance errors on implementation foo
<fizbin>
Is there a convenient way to destructure a cons cell as you bind it? E.g. I've got a (let* ((abcell (myfunc args)) (a (car abcell)) (b (cdr abcell))) ...) and I'm wondering if there's a way to avoid the boilerplate and somehow just bind ((a.b) (myfunc args))
<pve>
mfiano: I've yet to come up with a clean way of handling those package variance errors :(
<phoe>
(destructuring-bind (a . b) (cons 42 24) ...)
<phoe>
pve: mfiano: well, DEFINE-PACKAGE handles package variance errors for me
<fizbin>
phoe: Huh. I thought I tried destructuring-bind and it wouldn't work for me...
<pve>
phoe: it does, but I meant while still clinging to cl:defpackage
<akater[m]>
fizbin: `destructuring-bind` aside, there's also `trivia` in Quicklisp
<phoe>
pve: oh right, yes - that's because redefining packages is completely UB
<akater[m]>
fizbin: but you shouldn't have any issues with destructuring-bind
<phoe>
so implementations can do whatever, in theory - though they try to do The Useful Thing™ instead, and that is unspecified
<phoe>
fizbin: (destructuring-bind (a . b) (cons 42 24) (format t "~A ~A~%" a b)) works for me
<pve>
phoe: right
<mfiano>
phoe: I don't want to depend on uiop, and require users to update asdf manually to get PLN support
<mfiano>
I also don't use Quicklisp anymore :)
<mfiano>
The above form in my rc solves all my issues with package variance though
<phoe>
mfiano: I see
<fizbin>
Ah, I see what I was doing wrong. I couldn't find any examples that destructured a cons cell so was trying to use it like let or let* and had an extra set of parens. The error with (destructuring-bind ((a . b) (cons 42 40)) (+ a b)) was indecipherable.
<phoe>
fizbin: well, D-B accepts 2+ arguments - the first one is the "skeleton" to destructure against, the second one is the data structure to destructure
<phoe>
the rest is the &body to be executed
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<phoe>
you can't perform multiple destructurings in a single D-B like you can bind multiple variables in a LET or LET*
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<pve>
mfiano: I was not aware of sb-ext:*on-package-variance*, thanks!
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<mfiano>
Sure thing
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<akater[m]>
fizbin: clhs has an example. You will benefit from looking at such, in general.
<akater[m]>
(I mean, clhs offers examples often enough)
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<hayley>
phoe: If you are very lazy, (destructuring-bind (pattern-for-a pattern-for-b pattern-for-c) (list a b c) ...)
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<akater[m]>
fizbin: The example is on the first page you linked to. It is close enough to the beginning of the page that I see it right after `M-x hyperspec-lookup destructuring-bind`
<phoe>
akater[m]: I think the issue is that this example does not explicitly use the consing dot notation
<fizbin>
An example of how to use destructuring-bind in structures that didn't match what I was using was insufficient in letting me figure out what to use. Also, having the first form of the lambda list be itself enclosed in another level of parens led me down the wrong path.
<akater[m]>
Well, at least you can't confuse this with let syntax.
<fizbin>
Then, the linked syntax in 3.4.5 led me to conclude "oh, destructuring bind is good for other things, but not cons lists" because I can't see cons lists in the syntax there.
<akater[m]>
Ah, true, it should hove the less complicated example as well.
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<phantomics>
A question: is it simply not possible to check whether a symbol has been bound in the lexical scope? For instance, (let ((a 1)) (is-bound 'a)) would yield t, while (let ((a 1)) (is-bound 'b)) would yield false assuming there's no dynamic variable called b
<beach>
That's correct. If it were possible, the compiler would be very limited in the kinds of optimizations it could do.
<beach>
And the creators of Common Lisp were very smart because they wanted it to be possible to write compilers that can generate very fast code.
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<adeht>
you can check it during macroexpansion time
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<scymtym>
phantomics: there is no way to inquire at runtime and no standard way in general. a semi-portable way to do it at compile-time is (let ((a 1)) (macrolet ((is-bound? (&environment env name) `(quote ,(multiple-value-list (sb-cltl2:variable-information name env))))) (is-bound? a)))
<phantomics>
Thanks, basically what I'm writing is a variant of (let) that aliases symbols in the outer scope _if_ they exist
<hayley>
I suppose it is necessary that is-bound-p could not be a function, as it cannot inspect the static environment of its caller.
<phantomics>
so, for example, (let2 ((a)) becomes (let2 ((a a)) _if_ the (let2) is inside another (let) form that assigns a value to a.
<pjb>
phantomics: you mean that you're writing a macro that should depend on the outer scope.
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<phantomics>
pjb: correct
<pjb>
phantomics: macro can get a &environment parameter, but it's an opaque object, there's no (standard) way to use it to find if there's a lexical binding in it.
<phantomics>
So in (let ((a 1)) (let2 ((a)) (+ a 5))), the inner a is assigned the value of the outer a using the (let2) macro because a is defined in the outer scope
<pjb>
So you can only shadow all the operators that establish lexical bindings, and maintain a macroexpansion-time list of the bindings that are created, with a macro or function to query it.
<pjb>
Note this may be difficult to write correctly, because macros can be expanded multiple times, (and therefore some questions about the order of expansion may be asked).
<pjb>
(even in theorically they're expanded outside in, of course).
<pjb>
s/in/if/
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<pjb>
phantomics: and since you will have shadowed a lot of macros (and a few special operators), this will work only on code which you will have compiled (or are compiling) with them.
<phantomics>
Right, I already have a system for listing assigned variables, but there are some corner case bugs to work out. Maybe it just needs a compiler pass over the full generated code
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<pjb>
phantomics: but really, the point is that all the lexical environment is just right under your nose: it's literally written down!
<pjb>
So the way to do this (let ((a 1)) (let2 ((a)) (+ a 5))) is NOT to define and write a let2 to be used inside.
<phantomics>
pjb: this is for my APL compiler, so these are measures to handle how APL deals with lexical variables. None of this would be necessary for writing standard CL
<pjb>
The right way is to write a macro such as: (rebinding-let ((a 1)) … (rebound (+ a 5)) …)
<pjb>
rebinding-let can expand to the outer let, and a macrolet rebound that will expand to your let2.
<phantomics>
I'm automatically hoisting variables and building (let) forms for them as part of compilation
<pjb>
More reason to avoid any shenanigans! You're generting the code. Therefore generate the code correctly!
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<Josh_2>
Is quicklisp library search working on the website?
<Josh_2>
it timedout for me
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<Xach>
Josh_2: what website?
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<yitzi>
Probably the quickdocs one. It was defunct for a bit and now it is back up with a refresh. Maybe they changed their search query stuff?
<dilated_dinosaur>
hey there! quick question that i am losing my mind over. in CL (in emacs) how do you put in a newline or carrage return in a string like "hello world\n" in C?
<Josh_2>
Xach: the quicklisp website
<beach>
dilated_dinosaur: Just put a newline in there.
<beach>
dilated_dinosaur: If you don't want that, do #.(format nil "first~%second")
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<dilated_dinosaur>
huh thanks. this is too much of a pain because i don't know if i am fighting emacs, the repl or CL
<beach>
Pleasure.
<lotuseater>
beach: I thought also about telling TERPRI, but I think this isn't so much recommended. :)
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<yitzi>
Josh_2: the quicklisp search probably links to quickdocs.org which just changed their search url. You can go directly to quickdocs.org to search if you want.
<beach>
lotuseater: How would you structure that?
<Josh_2>
I already found what I was looking for, thanks though
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<lotuseater>
Ah sure. It wouldn't help.
<lotuseater>
Your advice with #.(format nil ...) is also helpful when writing docstrings one wants to have formatted in the source but also not too much spaces when looking them up.
<beach>
Indeed. And then I use ~@<newline> to separate the lines.
<lotuseater>
Will try that.
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<Xach>
thanks
<lotuseater>
I see, without the @ it doesn't trigger when filling in more newlines.
<beach>
The @ modifier eliminates initial whitespace on the next line, so that all lines are aligned in the leftmost column.
<lotuseater>
Good to know, another thing I wasn't aware of. FORMAT has so many options and possibilities.
<beach>
Yeah.
<lotuseater>
CLHS 22.3.9.3 covers that too I see now.
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<Josh_2>
With sly which command takes me to the source for a function?
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<ck_>
I'd guess C-]
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<ck_>
oh, that was a slimv guess, sorry. Josh_2: M-.
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<lotuseater>
Good to know, someone told me about a special rule when using (setq var thing) and VAR is a symbol macro the setq works like setf.
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<jmercouris>
is there a way to 'inherit' nicknames from a package as well?
<jmercouris>
so for example, let's say I have package tomato
<jmercouris>
and in package tomato I make a nickname for package pepper named "p"
<jmercouris>
then I :USE tomato
<phoe>
you mean package-local nicknames?
<jmercouris>
yes
<phoe>
I don't think it's possible to inherit PLNs
<jmercouris>
I mean those specifically
<jmercouris>
damnit
<jmercouris>
perhaps I shall make a macro for it then
<phoe>
might be a good idea for UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE though?...
<jmercouris>
perhaps
<phoe>
to grab all local nicknames from one package and copy them into another
<jmercouris>
I wasn't thinking of a generalized macro like that, but that could also work
<White_Flame>
package-local names should ideally be package interned symbols as well
<White_Flame>
but that's quite a significant change
<jmercouris>
phoe: is there a way to list all package local nicknames in a package?
<jmercouris>
why does it remove the 'trivial-package-local-nicknames' in the expansion?
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<phoe>
because the symbol is present in your current package
<phoe>
are you in CL-USER?
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<jmercouris>
I don't recall
<jmercouris>
I just did C-c M-m
<phoe>
that's likely the case then
<jmercouris>
OK
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<jmercouris>
see any other problems with the macro?
<jmercouris>
does it look reasonable?
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<phoe>
it does not need to be a macro
<jmercouris>
OK, so a function, why not
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<phoe>
if anything, remember to call it in EVAL-ALWAYS so it affects the compilation environment
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<pillton>
mfiano: Yes. I am the author of specialization-store.
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<mfiano>
pillton: Hello.
<mfiano>
In the documentation I didn't find any mention of what is expected for the &body portion of defstore, and none of the examples use it. I was just curious, because it seems to be checking for a list with car being a keyword symbol and cadr being a function designator, or something along those lines.
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<pillton>
mfiano: It is part of the MOP for specialization store. You can pass arguments to the class which instantiates the store object.
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<pillton>
The default implementation has no options I think.
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<pillton>
You can change the class of the specialization object used by the store by using the :specialization-class option.
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