#pypy on 2021-06-27 — irc logs at libera.irclog.whitequark.org

13:58 <mattip> tumbleweed_: someone reached out with a scenario where they installed pypy3-v7.3.5 and then did `sudo pypy3 -m pip install numpy` and it went to the same directory as cpython

13:59 <mattip> I tried to convince them that `sudo pip` is evil, but re-using the same path seems problematic

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14:12 <mattip> I think this line is problematic https://salsa.debian.org/debian/pypy3/-/blob/debian/lib-python/3/site.py#L352

14:12 <mattip> it should have pypy3, not python3

14:14 <mattip> (and the corresponding sections in lib-python/3/distutils/command/install.py and lib-python/3/sysconfig_pypy.py)

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14:39 <cfbolz> mattip: note that there was/is a general conversation happening between debian packaging and cpython-dev

14:39 <cfbolz> arounds uch issues

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15:08 <tumbleweed_> mattip: that L352 won't be reached on pypy

15:08 <tumbleweed_> also, there's a relevant patch applied to that file: https://salsa.debian.org/debian/pypy3/-/blob/debian/debian/patches/distutils-install-layout

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15:09 * tumbleweed_ tries to reproduce

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15:15 <mattip> hmm, so the distutils patch has this

15:15 <mattip> https://salsa.debian.org/debian/pypy3/-/blob/debian/debian/patches/distutils-install-layout#L34

15:16 <tumbleweed> = /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages

15:16 <tumbleweed> which is where we put our python modules (shared between cpython and pypy)

15:18 <mattip> is that where "sudo pypy3 -m pip install numpy" will end up putting it?

15:18 <tumbleweed> no, it should be using the pypy-local scheme

15:19 <mattip> hmm

15:20 <mattip> when I do the command, I get "Requirement already satisfied: numpy in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (1.17.4)"

15:21 <mattip> so cpython/debian is installing numpy there, which confuses pypy

15:22 <mattip> (I don't dispute that the whole "sudo pip install" saga is wrong, but that is above my pay grade)

15:22 <tumbleweed> even if sudo pip install is a good way to break your system, it should still work, if used correctly

15:23 <tumbleweed> pypy3 -m pip install -U numpy - WFM

15:23 <tumbleweed> although it uninstalled python3-numpy, which it shouldn't have

15:24 <mattip> what happens when you do it with sudo and without -U

15:24 <tumbleweed> that was as root, so with sudo

15:24 <mattip> ahh, so without -U, sorry

15:25 <tumbleweed> without -U if python3-numpy is installed it doesn't know that it's only built for cpython

15:25 <tumbleweed> I guess -I or --ignore-installed would work here too

15:25 <tumbleweed> err or --force-reinstall

15:27 <mattip> I think trying to share /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages between cpython and pypy is problematic

15:27 <tumbleweed> we really should do a pypy3-numpy package in Debian (and other popular C libs)

15:27 <tumbleweed> yes, it has some issues

15:29 <mattip> building popular c-extensions for pypy3 would be cool, as long as it isn't too much effort

15:30 <mattip> then I guess the pypy3-numpy and python3-numpy could live happily side-by-side, since they will be the same exact version

15:30 <tumbleweed> yeah

15:30 <tumbleweed> I can't see any metadata that would enable pip to understand and resolve this problem, itself

15:31 <tumbleweed> unless installed from wheel, then you get numpy-*.dist-info/WHEEL

15:31 <mattip> in the "official" portable builds, we take the no-sharing approach

15:32 <mattip> like conda

15:32 <tumbleweed> sounds like the right thing to do

15:32 <tumbleweed> I was on the fence about sharing in the beginning, because there are definitely some issues with it (that I don't think are resolveable)

15:33 <tumbleweed> but on the plus side, for pure-python modules it is really useful

15:33 <tumbleweed> packages don't have to change to support pypy, and we don't have to bloat the archive with pypy3-* packages

15:33 <mattip> I wonder how much disk it would consume to not share

15:34 <tumbleweed> in the big picture, not a whole lot. But it means extra binary packages for every python module that opts-in

15:34 <tumbleweed> and there's always pressure to not do that

15:34 <mattip> maybe someday hpy will take off and everything will be simpler

15:35 <tumbleweed> we can hope :)

15:35 <mattip> sorry, I don't have any other good ideas

15:35 <mattip> we had discussed trying to be 100% cpython compatible with our c-extension modules, but it is very tricky

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