08:32 <Regenaxer> Shouldn't we participate in the Lisp Game Jam?

08:33 <Regenaxer> Unfortunately I'm neither a game programmer nor a gamer

08:33 <Regenaxer> A little game for PilBox would be cool though

08:34 <beneroth> hi Regenaxer

08:34 <beneroth> link?

08:34 <Regenaxer> https://itch.io/jam/autumn-lisp-game-jam-2021

08:34 <beneroth> thx

08:34 <Regenaxer> This was posted by Jean-Christophe in the mailings

08:36 <beneroth> haven't received it, it appears

08:37 <beneroth> last email I received from Jean-Christophe is from two days ago, 'PilCon tomorrow', about the pipe question

08:37 <Regenaxer> Didn't know it exists

08:37 <Regenaxer> oh

08:38 <Regenaxer> It is in the archive "Autumn Lisp Game Jam 2021 J"

08:38 <beneroth> btw. Regenaxer after much struggle and tiring googling... I've found the unix command 'script' (installed by default, originally from BSD in the 70s)

08:39 <beneroth> it was originally made to get a full log of a unix shell, but can also be used to run another process within a pseudo-tty (pty)

08:39 <Regenaxer> Which 'script' do you mean?

08:40 <Regenaxer> ah

08:40 <Regenaxer> yes, script I know

08:40 <beneroth> I didn't! and I searched forever to get this functionality!

08:40 <beneroth> needs to be put into an article about (pipe)

08:41 <Regenaxer> I also completely forgot about it

08:41 <beneroth> 'script' makes it possible to use cli commands in picolisp (pipe) even when they require a tty and behave differently when called without tty

08:42 <beneroth> I run more than once into this issue, it's extremely annoying, tricky to recognize at first

08:42 <Regenaxer> Might be a solution for razzy

08:42 <beneroth> exactly. maybe his tool also checks for tty

08:43 <Regenaxer> about mailings: Did you receive "PilCon yesterday"?

08:43 <beneroth> many do, I don't understand why.. I would understand cli tools using curses etc. (or other screen renderings, like vim/vip etc) checking for tty, but there are also many shell-like tools which do normal sequential input/output but behave differently when not called from a tty

08:43 <beneroth> Regenaxer, yes I did

08:43 <Regenaxer> ok

08:44 <beneroth> last mail I received

08:44 <Regenaxer> After that only 2

08:45 <Regenaxer> Yeah, tty is a special beast

08:45 <beneroth> yeah didn't receive those, not even the second one you wrote

08:45 <beneroth> maybe they check for tty to get screen size or so to better format their output.. but still

08:46 <beneroth> ah my psh issue persists on the new server, too

08:46 <Regenaxer> Ubuntu?

08:46 <beneroth> not sure if the used SSH client has to do something with or if its entirely an issue of the server (windows -> ssh -> server -> pil repl -> psh)

08:47 <beneroth> yeah, Ubuntu 18.04 (old server) and Ubuntu 20.04 (new server)

08:47 <Regenaxer> I think ssh is not the problem

08:47 <Regenaxer> rather changing tty

08:47 <Regenaxer> ctty

08:47 <Regenaxer> permissions or so?

08:47 <beneroth> yeah. but it works on my dev machine and older ubuntus

08:47 <beneroth> which permissions?

08:48 <beneroth> no issue with normal pil repl, only psh

08:48 <Regenaxer> it opens some /dev/pts/N

08:49 <Regenaxer> On Debian I never had a problem

08:49 <beneroth> same issue even when the pil server & client repl runs as root

08:49 <Regenaxer> ok

08:51 <Regenaxer> The problem were some keys not working, right?

08:51 <Regenaxer> So anyway not a permission issue

08:53 <beneroth> maybe some systemd fuckery.. systemd is such a hazard. I've wanted to mount a new partition using fstab, turns out systemd generates "systemD mount unit" configs files automatically from /etc/fstab, but when there is a slight mistake it doesn't regenerate them automatically even when /etc/fstab is updated.. resulting in the unfunny result that "mount -a" correctly does mount according to /etc/fstab configs, but then systemd detects it has a mount unit for

08:53 <beneroth> the mount point, and quickly unmounts the mount point. no errors, not even in the logs. mount -a works but systemd undoes the effect instantly.

08:54 <beneroth> Regenaxer, yes. backspace not getting recognized. so I have to type in psh commands the first time right.

08:55 <Regenaxer> Perhaps strace(s) help? Which key is passed around?

08:56 <beneroth> hm, might be an idea. which process?

08:56 <beneroth> client or server session?

08:56 <beneroth> I will test later

08:57 <Regenaxer> ok, both

08:57 <Regenaxer> write() and read() on stdio

08:57 <Regenaxer> all involved processes

09:13 <beneroth> ok, will try, thanks :)

10:52 <aw-> hi beneroth Regenaxer

10:53 <aw-> beneroth: don't forget, if an entry in /etc/fstab can't be mounted (ex: missing HDD), systemd will completely prevent the system from booting

10:53 <aw-> have to add 'nofail' to the options

10:59 <beneroth> hi aw- =)

10:59 <beneroth> right, I'm aware, thanks :)

11:10 <beneroth> aw-, have you experienced with no-systemd-distros? do you plan to? I guess I need to check out devuan, but didn't so far

11:10 <beneroth> s/experienced/experimented

12:17 <Regenaxer> Hi aw-!

13:35 <aw-> beneroth: yes, you mean Linux before systemd?

13:37 <aw-> i've used Devuan, I set it up on a rock64 a while ago, it's basically just Debian without systemd. Works just as you'd expect. I stopped following the project when they started naming the releases differently from Debian releases, as if they wanted to turn it into their own OS or something.. can't keep track, don't care.

13:38 <aw-> and I still use TinyCore Linux for a bunch of things, no systemd there, it's wonderful

13:41 <aw-> beneroth: Devuan is still great though, really nice to NOT have systemd. Definitely worth trying if you dislike systemd that much.

14:26 <beneroth> aw-, thanks, good to know!

14:29 <beneroth> I dislike it on idealistic notions (bloat, transparency) and practical experience, just whenever I have an issue with OS stuff it most times turns out to be caused by systemd, while I don't see practical benefits for my work

14:38 <Regenaxer> indeed. Suddenly matrix-synapse did not start up any longer. Obscure error message. By chance I found out that "systemctl daemon-reexec" helps

14:38 <Regenaxer> Not the slightest idea why! :)