05:02 <concrete-houses> hello does it work on openbsd?

05:02 <concrete-houses> how hard to learn lisp?

05:03 <concrete-houses> Alan Kay in a video said 99.95 of people don't understand lisp even many longtime user

05:09 <Regenaxer> Hi concrete-houses! I think it works on OpenBSD

05:19 <Regenaxer> He was also the guy who said that Data are a bad concept

05:22 <Regenaxer> I strongly disagree

08:25 <beneroth> Regenaxer, I'm not so sure about the data remark... I believe I understand what Alan meant...that data is meaningless without an interpreter, and ideally you transport both together. Like binary data with field labels (pilDB binary format) vs. binary data without labels (useless if you don't have a suitable interpreter)

08:27 <Regenaxer> yes, he thinks of objects of course

08:27 <Regenaxer> But this is "static" thinking

08:27 <Regenaxer> Data by themselves are much more powerful

08:28 <Regenaxer> Different meaning and interpretation dependending on context

08:33 <beneroth> good thinking, Regenaxer

08:34 <beneroth> but interpretation might change with objects too. (set>) in pil. Which is surely against the mainstream understanding of OOP. Not sure what Kay would think of that... I tend to believe he would agree with us

08:35 <beneroth> also in a way I agree with Alan, when talking about "transferring data" what usually is meant is "transferring this specific interpretation of the data"

08:35 <beneroth> (which in essence is impossible)

08:37 <beneroth> if the matching interpretation is just assumed to be in multiple peoples head (as with natural language)... well it's a dependency. it's not removing complexity.

08:37 <beneroth> I think its good to be aware of that

08:38 <beneroth> I agree Alan utterly failed on that in the bespoke HN thread

08:42 <beneroth> <Regenaxer> Different meaning and interpretation dependending on context

08:43 <beneroth> therefore data cannot be separated from context without changing meaning

08:43 <Regenaxer> Yeah

08:43 <Regenaxer> (Sorry, Tel all the time)

08:43 <beneroth> haha, np

08:49 <Regenaxer> I totally agree that data needs a context get meaning. Still data stand-alone are a good thing

08:54 <beneroth> I suspect Alan Kay defines "data standalone" as "bits on a harddisk where we don't know the filesystem and know nothing how to interpret it"

08:55 <beneroth> bbl

10:50 <Regenaxer> Yeah, that's the other extreme