klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<sortie> https://pub.sortix.org/sortix/screenshots/sortix-service-sshd-enable-disable.png ← Tonight in osdev, I wrote the init(8) support in its engine and added Unix socket comms, and hacked up a quick service(8) that can start/stop daemons
<heat_> today in osdev i fixed some stuff and merged some stuff and forcefully coerced grub into cooperating with me
<zid`> That's called sexual assault, heat
<geist> today in osdev i added more safety by setting the inner page table permission bits on ARM
<geist> shoulda done that a long time ago
<heat_> zircon or lk?
<geist> zircon
<heat_> kool
<geist> though i guess LK too, since it's the same code base
<heat_> what bits did you set?
<geist> oh UXN and no EL0
<heat_> ah
<heat_> yeah those generally make sense. i've never found any real use for the other ones
<heat_> like marking stuff RO in the upper page levels is silly
<bslsk05> ​fuchsia-review.googlesource.com <no title>
<geist> yah, it actually kinda makes sense. in this case the attributes are fairly sane
<heat_> constexpr!!!
<geist> constexpr FTW
<geist> yeah constexpred up a few functions while i was at it
<heat_> do you have swapping?
<geist> no, we have a form of zram
<heat_> aww
<geist> no real push to do swapping
<heat_> i was going to ask if you had done any sort of crazy linux-like PTE inversion
<heat_> cuz of all the side channels they invert the PTE so it's literally invalid
<geist> i did read about a new v8.3/9.3 extension that lets you redefine the permission bits in the page tables
<geist> called something like indirect permssions
<geist> but then it dramatically affects the way heirarhcial permissions work
<geist> and there's another bit that lets you disable HP which then lets yo use the bits for other stuff, etc
<geist> s/v8.3/v8.8
<heat_> are they still developing v8?
<heat_> what's the difference between v8 and v9 anyway?
<heat_> except "buncha features"
<geist> v9.0 == v8.5 + SVE
<geist> but yeah they're apparently continuing to at least maintain the property that v9.0 features map to v8.5+ features and vice versa
<geist> i dunno why they're doing it to be honest, except my guess is the need to declare a v9 was more of a marketing/etc decision
<geist> and so they just sort of snapshotted what was going on with v8 and called it that, but didn't really change anything under the hood
<geist> also note there's no v9 ARM ARM. it's just v8 with a note that says v9 == 8.5
<geist> so now if you get the absolute latest ARM ARM it's like 50 extensions overlaied on top of each other, some of which are optional, some are mandatory, and some when uyou enable will undo the effect of previous ones. etc
<geist> it's a huge pile of complexium
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<heat_> oh so like x86
<heat_> nothin new
<heat_> the optionalness is annoying (cough cough riscv) but it is what it is
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<nikolapdp> i thought risc was supposed to be simpler
<zid`> It's simple the way learning kanji is simple
<zid`> "each little picture is a word, simples"
<nikolapdp> heh
<kof673> > ½, the Plan 9 Window System i heard you like 8.5, now you can run 8.5 on your 8.5
<geist> it is a lot simpler
<geist> it's just going to inevitably get more complicated
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<heat_> plan 9 is plan v8.5 + FEAT_WINDOW
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<erai> wow writing to the vga framebuffer is kinda slow
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<zid`> yea, it goes over a bus rather than main memory
<zid`> which is why you need to set the mtrrs up for write combining and stuff at least
<erai> welp disabling all the debugging prints i have i get a decent 200kB/s with tcp
<erai> good enough for a remote shell. time for bed
<erai> i hope wc is much faster because i really like having something when i broke interrupts etc.
<erai> but i guess byte-by-byte uncachable memmove to shift up is like the worst possible way to do it
<zid`> *reading* is actually way slower btw
<zid`> you might wanna keep an off-screen buffer
<zid`> and just blit it back on update
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<dasabhi> since you mentioned plan9, has any one last heard from gnu hurd?
<dasabhi> last release 2016, safe to say its dead :/
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<zid`> It's not dead it's just tired
<dasabhi> what exactly is it tired of?
<zid`> Living.
<zid`> And not having access to any fjords
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<dasabhi> hey i know some of you have written your own riscv core
<dasabhi> and i realize talking to a GPU in your homegrown kernel is a major complex task
<dasabhi> but...what if you wrote a tiny gpu along with your riscv core and spoke to that tiny gpu
<dasabhi> can that be done reasonably?
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<ddevault> sortie: you wrote the toolchain pages on the wiki?
<ddevault> sortie: you'll be please to know regarding https://wiki.osdev.org/OS_Specific_Toolchain#ld.2FMakefile.am
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: OS Specific Toolchain - OSDev Wiki
<ddevault> sortie: they have now generated it, according to binutils master
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<ddevault> sortie: you also should drop dbxelf.h from gcc/config.gcc
<ddevault> removed upstream in 7e0db0cdf01e9c885a29cb37415f5bc00d90c029
<ddevault> aside, has anyone got wiki registrations working again? or is the website still stuck in limbo
<ddevault> oh my god it works
<ddevault> woo!
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<ddevault> good lord, I last used this account 10 years ago
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<nikolar> What's 10 years between friends :)
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<sortie> ddevault: Woohoo! Yeah it's been a bunch of years since I last worked on that article. I didn't originally write OS Specific Toolchain but I did do massive contributions to it back in the day. Happy that you continue to contribute to it :)
<ddevault> bit of a pyrrhic victory given that now I have fucking C++ involved
<ddevault> but it'll be useful later to port gcc
<nikolapdp> not sure if i should congratulate
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<sortie> ddevault: Woohoo!
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<ddevault> has anyone documented the format of a core dump
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<Mutabah> ddevault: is it just ELF?
<ddevault> yeah, but with some, as far as I can tell, nonstandard sections for things like registers
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<Mutabah> dwarf?
<netbsduser> how many hobby kernels actually support a proper unmount?
<dostoyevsky2> netbsduser: is an unmount that difficult to implement?
<netbsduser> dostoyevsky2: more so than to not do so
<netbsduser> it just strikes me as one of those things that few people bother to do in a hobby kernel
<zid`> If it can be resolved by rebooting
<zid`> it's fairly low on the prio list I imagine
<zid`> It's a very very very long process to get a hobby OS you can actually *use*
<netbsduser> i don't have it yet because you need tracking of open files on an FS, chasing up deletion of namecache entries, chasing up vnode writeback, chasing up vnode destruction, etc
<netbsduser> in time i will
<dostoyevsky2> netbsduser: you could just implement some reference counting and if it drops to zero and the device is marked as to be unmounted... you unmount it
<netbsduser> dostoyevsky2: it's not so trivial
<netbsduser> you can do a bare minimum effort like that and be rewarded with an unmount that will *never* happen until a) everyone has stopped interacting with the FS b) all writebacks have completed at their usual hour dictated by the writeback daemons c) there has been prolonged memory and namecache pressure resulting in the gradual replacement, depth-first, of every entry in the namecache tree relevant to that FS
<dostoyevsky2> netbsduser: I wonder if there is a small OS that could e.g. unmount and one could use as a launching pad for OS development
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<kof673> well...if you have "journaling" also, it may not be clean but ...give processes 30 seconds or whatever to clean up?
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<dostoyevsky> netbsduser: put all your kernel data structures in sqlite tables, then you can always query who is using what ;-)
<ddevault> getcwd. hm.
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<netbsduser> namecache to the rescue for getcwd
<ddevault> yeah
<ddevault> I was thinking if I need a dcache before I can do getcwd without hacks
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<bslsk05> ​github.com: 4.4BSD-Lite2/usr/src/lib/libc/gen/getcwd.c at master · sergev/4.4BSD-Lite2 · GitHub
<netbsduser> but i'm of the firm opinion now that a proper namecache with pinning of parents of currently-referenced directories is a vital design element, not least to avoid this...
<ddevault> this approach had occured to me, grab .. until you find root
<ddevault> and the obvious flaw, having to readdir the whole bloody thing each time, also occured to me shortly thereafter
<ddevault> will depend on how lazy I'm feeling tomorrow
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<zid`> I need a 4 open socket paladin shield plzkth
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<kof673> > From Old French paladin, from Latin palladius, from Pallas, a goddess of wisdom that's the best i can do, paladinen
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<heat> netbsduser, yep, umount is TODO here
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<gorgonical> indeed
<gorgonical> I spent all last night wrangling a shittier version of my i2c driver I wrote for benchmark comparisons
<gorgonical> Cobbled together a rather bad sort of TLV system to transfer variable-length i2c messages between kernels in one contiguous buffer
<nortti> < acidx> yeah, and it was a really nice talk. wish they had made it public ← looks like something very similar's been released https://gaultier.github.io/blog/how_to_rewrite_a_cpp_codebase_successfully.html
<bslsk05> ​gaultier.github.io: How to rewrite a C++ codebase successfully
<acidx> nice!
<heat> i've been planning to do a somewhat-syskaller-ish representation of my syscalls
<heat> so tooling could read it and semantically understand what it does
<heat> (mostly strace)
<heat> not sure if the syzkaller description language could do, but i'd need to pull in go and all that... :/
<mjg> you can pull in a freebsd, he he
<heat> what
<mjg> nothing :(
<heat> the gnu people actually use emacsen and i hate it please stop you fucking nerds
<bslsk05> ​www.phoronix.com: Microsoft Contributes Windows On ARM64 "aarch64-w64-mingw32" Support To GCC 15 - Phoronix
<Ermine> but why
<nikolapdp> heat why do you care that they use emacsen
<heat> because it's a stupid term
<heat> -en is not plural you nerds
<heat> if you see two people named max do you say they're maxen??
<Ermine> yes
<heat> god bless you Ermine
<Ermine> :]
<Ermine> afaik -en is plurak in mjgspeak
<mjg> and is meaningless in heatspeak
<mjg> fucking adding it to any word
<mjg> fucking guy*
<Ermine> woah woah
<mjg> can you eat least admit 'patchen' has a great vibe to it
<mjg> 's so good i'm totally going to use it
<Ermine> pathen have viben indeed
<heat> indeeden
<bslsk05> ​pidp.net: PiDP-10
<Ermine> heat: why would microsoft send patches to gcc, what do you think?
<heat> using many compilers improves code
<heat> they already contribute to clang
<nikolar> And gcc and clean usually have better codegen
<heat> GCC catches stuff clang can't, and vice versa, and MSVC catches stuff the others can't
<nikolar> Than msvc
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<zid`> Time for: shitty cheap oven pizza
<heat> oh TIL illumos supports multiboot
<zid`> is there anything useful that doesn't support multiboot
<heat> linux
<zid`> I thought you hated linux
<zid`> that's why you run openbsd
<heat> oh right
<heat> yes openbsd also doesn't support multiboot
<zid`> openbsd sounds perfect then
<Ermine> doesn't openbsd ship their own bootloader?
<Ermine> netbsd does, and minix does as a result
<heat> illumos also ships its own bootloader i'd bet
<mjg> it's a freebsd bootloader
<nikolapdp> what is
<mjg> serious comment
<heat> but i'm looking at the GRUB support and they do have multiboot apparently
<nikolapdp> who does
<heat> illumos
<nikolapdp> neat
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<heat> lol i just had an OOM because of
<heat> *shellcheck*
<Ermine> did you run it on configure script
<zid`> he ran it on portugueseuse
<zid`> "wtf is this shit"
<heat> yeah i had a bunch of autocrap open
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<gorgonical> heat: -en is too a plural suffix
<gorgonical> just not a productive suffix in modern english. but we have fossilized words with that as the plural
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<heat> why does my grub not a install a font
<heat> huh, i think it needs freetype. oh well
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<Ermine> #osdev : de-fossilizing lingual stuff
* Ermine starts using thou
<heat> cool i have chroot now
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<nikolapdp> thou shalt use thou instead of singular you
<Ermine> opensuse have set up emacs as email handler
<heat> wtf i dont get it
<heat> grub is triple faulting AGAIN but on this specific disk
<Ermine> fk , how to stop being pessimal
<heat> you either die as OPTIMAL or you live long enough to become PESSIMAL
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<geist> and you learn to be okay with it
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