klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<heat> wxwisiasdf, are you rolling your own gcc?
<heat> err, libc*
<heat> kazinsal, have you written your x86_64 code yet?
<wxwisiasdf> i hope i don't
<kazinsal> heat: uhhh I errrr ummmm
* kazinsal throws down a smoke bomb and runs away
<heat> :D
<heat> wxwisiasdf, hm? are you or are you not writing your own libc?
<wxwisiasdf> heat: yes i am rolling my own libc - but if i can just use a pre-existing one then sure
<heat> well, you can, it's a choice you have to make
<heat> especially since you're running on an interesting environment
<heat> that will make it harder to port a libc
<heat> but yeah, if you're rolling your own, you're gonna want to cross compile binutils and gcc
<wxwisiasdf> yeah uh, is there any way to tell gcc/binutils to NOT use threading at all?
<wxwisiasdf> while the mf can hold 248 cpus it can only use 1 because it's cooperative multitasking because there is no TOD clock
<heat> i think it won't use them if it sees you're missing threading
<heat> autoconf stuff is pretty smart and tries to see what it can and can't use
<wxwisiasdf> aha...
<heat> i.e if it can't find C11 threads nor pthreads, it won't use them
<heat> also gcc and binutils don't use threads I think
<heat> maybe under LTO
<heat> anyway, not the point
<wxwisiasdf> well on my s390x gcc cross compilation i had to disable threads because it just assumed i had gthr
<heat> if you're rolling your own libc, that should be pretty straightforward. build, try to link - if it fails, see what you're missing, and implement it
<wxwisiasdf> well yeah uhm, the thing is that the gcc thing invokes programs
<heat> fact
<heat> if your programs can't invoke other programs, you're screwed
<heat> no way around it
<heat> find another legacy thing to emulate
<wxwisiasdf> :/
<heat> like hey, UNIX
<wxwisiasdf> ah yes, unix
<heat> even the first UNIX could fork() and exec
<wxwisiasdf> yeah you're right
<wxwisiasdf> but ELF relocations for s390 are pretty uh
<heat> what do you need them for?
<wxwisiasdf> pretty messed up, isn't there like a portable tcc? or interpreted c?
<wxwisiasdf> heat: to launch multiple programs i can either store the memory onto the disk and then reload when i finish the program (16mib stuff) or just load the program on the same address space
<wxwisiasdf> and loading the program thing req relocation
<wxwisiasdf> unless i hardcode it, but in that case i am completely screwing the entire thing over
<wxwisiasdf> anyways i got your point - that's all needed for gcc? which flag do i use to tell it tos tatically link btw?
<heat> it links how your compiler links by default
<wxwisiasdf> statically link as in the configure thing
<heat> since you probably didn't modify your cross compiler to have shared objects, it will link statically
<wxwisiasdf> ok thanks
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<heat> if you did, --disable-shared or something like that will work
<heat> oh bye :(
<heat> kazinsal, you should write x86_64 code, it's fun
<heat> not actually as bad as 32-bit stuff
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<kazinsal> yeah I just have adhd brain and can't sit my ass down and start
<kazinsal> really gotta ask my doc about getting on top of that
* geist whispers "vax"
<geist> kazinsal needs a vaxxination
* kazinsal instinctively switches focus to building a vax cross-gcc
* kingoffrance gives geist coffee as reward for that statement
<geist> haha i literally sat down in a starbux like 10 minutes ago
<zid> oh no, geist is poor now
<geist> so coffee.get() == true
<kazinsal> shitpostin' from the starbucks wifi
<jimbzy> Technician class obtained. I thought about taking my General test, too, but I figured I would wait until next month.
<geist> yah they can't trace me!
<kazinsal> I'm behind eleven baristas!
<geist> though iac tually i'm punching everything through a ssh socks tunnel because i dont trust open wifis
<kazinsal> yeah
<geist> jimbzy: omg grats! how difficult was the test?
<jimbzy> It took them longer to grade and verify it than it did for me to pass it. :p
<jimbzy> 35 multiple choice questions.
<geist> yah i should do it too as a technicality if nothing else. and i have a yard now i can hang antennas in
<jimbzy> Yeah, once you get the rules and bands down it's not so bad. The electrical theory stuff was super simple.
<geist> funny, my dad recently hung a new antenna at his house but he can't use 20m band because it induces enough current in his neighbors house to trigger faulting GFI circuits
<geist> apparently there was a range of very overly sensitive GFI breakers that were sold in the 2000s i think that are super sensitive to it
<geist> have since been fixed, but short of forcing them to replace their breaker box, not a lot you can do
<jimbzy> Yeah
<heat> that's very cool
<geist> and yeha re: rules/bands. it's the stuff you have to just memorize that take the most time. the rest i can passed based on my schoolin'
<jimbzy> 300/freq = band in meters
<geist> yah and i just remember a few anchors like 14mhz == 20m
<geist> and then work from there
<geist> but yea now that the world has opened up i should find a local testing place and git r dun
<jimbzy> Yep
<jimbzy> Got a little packet with the repeater frequencies, local clubs, emergency service groups and other stuff, too. Everyone was super happy.
<geist> happy that someone below the age of 60 is getting a new ham ticket?
<jimbzy> Yeah. They were trying to talk me into taking the general, too.
<jimbzy> Like crazy radio spectrum drug dealers. XD "Come on man, just try it..."
<heat> stupid question but what's so cool about ham radio?
<geist> CW is a gateway drug
<geist> next thing you know you'll be doing Baudot
<jimbzy> Hah
<geist> (i had heard a story that there was a guy that could copy Baudot)
<jimbzy> The old top there said CW exploded once they got rid of it as a requirement. I guess it was the pressure of learning it?
<jimbzy> heat, Nothing. Just something I wanted to do for a while and finally got it done.
<geist> it really held me off for so long
<geist> and it's not that hard honestly. 5WPM CW seems like a few hours of studying
<geist> but i think back in the day it was more like 13 WPM required for anything
<geist> when i was a kid, and the novelty of that was not worth it
<jimbzy> It was pretty quick.
<geist> yah 13 is starting to get into you gotta hear it
<geist> my dad does like 35WPM and at that speed and above you're listening to overall patterns if nothing else
<zid> There's a pretty famous video on youtube of an old guy cranking out morse
<jimbzy> He probably hears it in his sleep at this point.
<zid> it's pretty impressive
<jimbzy> Ask him if he dreams in Morse.
<bslsk05> ​www.reddit.com: High speed morse telegraphy using a straight key : nextfuckinglevel
<jimbzy> That's the "Guitar Hero" of the 20th century.
<zid> honestly a teletype doesn't sound much slower than he's managing by hand
<geist> yah i think the main annoynae there is the baudot code isn't really structued to be efficient since i think it's a fixed bit per char
<geist> so it's not much more so than ascii in 5 bits (except differnet layout)
<zid> yea it's just straight 5 bit right
<zid> and morse is more like huffman
<geist> and its two tones instead of on/off/time like morse
<geist> so its a completely different ear training for that obviously
<zid> FM vs AM :P
<geist> hah yeah
<geist> now if you could hear a PSK i'd be pretty impressed
<zid> hehe
<zid> psk is utter nonsense
<zid> I'm surprised it even works
<geist> you can sense its doing something but phase is just not a thing the brain is equipped to deal with
<geist> you should get one of the DSP based software radios though. they are super neato
<geist> but pricey
<zid> It just visually looks like it should be near impossible to extract
<zid> but I am told it's actually really easy and works well
<geist> what i did wish i had was a good 2.4 (or 5ghz) frequency analyzer, but they're pricey.
<zid> well you shouldn't have gone to starbucks then
<kazinsal> RTL-SDRs are really neat
<geist> at work a few years ago we had a like $50k rhode and schwartz freq analyser on a cart you could borrow for a while
<zid> now you're poor and can't afford a nice sdr
<geist> and it was pretty goddamn amazing
<kazinsal> I have one and sometimes you can just tune in on ham repeaters and just listen to some old dudes talk about lawn mower engines and shit
<geist> may have been pricier than that even. it was expensive enough that you took good care of it
<geist> but i do remember pointing it at 2.4 and you could totally see all the traffic in real time. was very neat
<zid> and yet a wifi can for a pcb is probably a dollar
<zid> which effectively does the same thing, but is fixed function
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<zid> My PC can do FM and AM actually
<zid> and DAB
<geist> yah i have one of his older SDRs in a box somewher.e i should hook it up
<geist> but he has one of the fancy expensive ones
<zid> I always forget I have that, I use the card for component video capture
<zid> but it has inputs for everything
<zid> hdmi, component, composite, s-video, coax (am/fm/dab)
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<geist> so now i have the very real problem that my server is unstable
<geist> i'm going to start pulling things out of it to see if i can make it stable again. possible culprit: 10gbe nic i put in it a while ago
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<heat> how unstable?
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<zid> I thought my PC was unstable yesterday but it turns out a connector had just friction-unfit itself
<zid> the cable had popped out like a burst zit or something
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<geist> locks up once every few days now
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<sbalmos> about a decade or so back I used to like trying out trials of those audio processing apps that could take line in/out to your sound card from your tranceiver, and would translate the CW on screen
<sbalmos> hard to interact because I'd still create too much RF interference with neighbors even at <100W. Might be better nowadays since everyone's fiber-optic or coax cable. Used to help by giving some neighbors some of my spare DSL line filters. But still...
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<hodbogi> QEMU doesn't need a section in the output ELF called .multiboot in order to find the multiboot header right? It just scans the beginning of the image until it finds a multiboot header? AFAIK It doesn't care, or if it does it should be able to find it in .text or something.. Additionally, it has to be aligned to a dword offset as well I think.
<zid> no first 16k or 32k or something
<hodbogi> yeah
<zid> typically you just shove it in your first section like .blah : { multiboot-header.o; .blah (*.o); }
<hodbogi> Yep. Looks like it's there, 00001000 d6 50 52 e8 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 1a af ad 17 |.PR.............|
<zid> doesn't look multibooty to me
<hodbogi> which is the beginning of .text, which is right at the front
<zid> should start 02 b0 ad 1b
<zid> 'badboot'
<zid> 1badboot even
<zid> or is that mb2's sig
<hodbogi> it's multiboot 2.
<hodbogi> MULTIBOOT_MAGIC = 0xE85250D6
<zid> 0xE85250D6
<zid> so it is
<hodbogi> I also checked the checksum and such and that all maths out
<zid> I'm not aware off the top of my head whether qemu supports multiboot 2... I assume it does
<zid> but I've never like, checked
<hodbogi> hm good point
<hodbogi> I mean I could stamp grump on the front or something if I had to.
<zid> load_multiboot in hw/i386/multiboot.c
<zid> only does mb1
<hodbogi> damn
<hodbogi> Well this explains a lot
<bslsk05> ​github.com: qemu/multiboot.c at b1fd92137e4d485adeec8e9f292f928ff335b76c · qemu/qemu · GitHub
<hodbogi> Yeah there isn't even a reference anywhere to mb2
<zid> is mb2.. useful to you?
<zid> I've never wanted more than 'load me, jump to me' tbh
<hodbogi> It was just super fast to write it in is all. I don't care much in the end.
<zid> so I just use mb1
<zid> more compat is more good anyway
<hodbogi> what about... Not that I have any reason but uh, I kinda wonder if it would work to leave as is and add an mb1 header in addition
<zid> yea you can do that
<hodbogi> put the mb2 one in first
<zid> put mb2 before mb1 so that mb2 aware one- yea
<heat> hodbogi, doesn't need to be called anything
<hodbogi> I was just confused because it was still complaining when the hexdump looked fine lol
<hodbogi> Another thing I noticed, is that when shuffling around objects files that are in ELF format and then linking them from an ar archive it drops the multiboot inclusion alltogether, unless I link the object files individually instead. Probably a linker flag I need for that, but that's not much of a worry for me.
<sbalmos> insert screw-Multiboot-go-UEFI trollery here ;)
<hodbogi> heh
<hodbogi> HEYYY
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<hodbogi> It worked.
<hodbogi> Look at that
<hodbogi> it's disgusting code, but it works. https://dpaste.org/YyeAa
<bslsk05> ​dpaste.org: dpaste/YyeAa (Plain Code)
<hodbogi> fasmg example
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<Bitweasil> I mean, that's a tolerable description of the Linux kernel. "Disgusting code, but it works." :p
<hodbogi> I was never a fan of reading anything in the Linux kernel
<hodbogi> I always found freebsd's codebase to be much less stressful
<hodbogi> Not 100% sure why
<hodbogi> Probably because I can find shit without digging through the LXR for an hour
<hodbogi> or asking somebody where something is
<Bitweasil> I just spend enough time in it that I can find my way around.
<zid> linux kernel just does more stuff
<zid> and as more stuff does more stuff, stuff needs to account for more other stuff
<heat> freebsd is wayy more stressful
<heat> they don't have comments nor good naming of functions and types
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* geist yawns
<geist> good afternoon folks
<gorgonical> today is indeed a good afternoon. Eating some salmon, vegetable stir fry, and the weather is lovely. A good afternoon
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<geist> oh nice!
<mjg> finally watched groundhog day
<mjg> like finished 20 minutes ago
<mjg> so when you say something about today being a good day... i think we have been here before
<gorgonical> where's nur. Make the tachyon beam (?) joke
<mjg> btw surprisingly decent movie
<mjg> could be a twilight zone episode if it was not so positive
<gorgonical> another good bill murray film is lost in translation
<gorgonical> I think he brings a lot of the same energy to it
<mjg> ha, watched that 15 years ago or so
<mjg> thanks for reminding me, perhaps it deserves another take
<bslsk05> ​'12:01 PM (1990) - Best quality available' by matters5 (00:27:40)
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<mjg> GeDaMo: so i watched the movie, pretty ok. easily would be a tz episode ;)
<mjg> speaking of time loops, stargate sg-1 "window of opportunity" == $$$
<mjg> funniest shit ever
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<GeDaMo> That movie was based on a short story and the author alleges that Groundhog Day was a ripoff
<mjg> well
<mjg> i can tell you that a time loop is a well known trope
<GeDaMo> Yeah, I know :P
<mjg> where people know they are stuck, don't know they are stuck
<mjg> all the variables * all their possible values
<mjg> i even had an idea for a short story involving a time loop only to find it's also a trope
<kingoffrance> someone told me groundhog was odin's squiirel on top the tree, so it goes way back :D
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<mjg> [shocking fucking idea, contact me for royalty rights if you want to use it: characters find out they are in a loop at the very end of the iteration and are too late to stop it from restarting
<mjg> ... where the last few sentenes in the story are literally the same as the first few opening it]
<mjg> now give me the fucking hugo
<Bitweasil> I believe Star Trek did that one in a Next Generation episode.
<kingoffrance> no, i'll give you a history trophy or something lol
<Bitweasil> And ended up resonating something through the space time continuum that influenced Data's behavior on the next cycle.
<heat> idea: there's literally no concept of time and the characters only find out at the end of the movie
<mjg> Bitweasil: do you have the title?
<Bitweasil> Uh...
<mjg> i mean you clearly don't remember but perhaps can find it
<Bitweasil> Let me look.
<mjg> thanks
<Bitweasil> lol, there's no shortage of Star Trek time loop episodes, is there?
<mjg> not much of star trek fun. watched some episodes as a kid and don't remember jack shit
<Griwes> I'd hazard a claim that most scifi tv shows have at least *a* time loop episode
<bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Cause and Effect (Star Trek: The Next Generation) - Wikipedia
<mjg> tried to watching few years back but the acting was offputting
<mjg> s/to//
<mrvn> Speaking of timey things: More Tribbles, More Troubles.
<bslsk05> ​memory-alpha.fandom.com: Cause and Effect (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom
<mjg> thanks
<Bitweasil> GeDaMo beat me to it.
<mjg> s/fun/fan/. geez
<mjg> at least i don't write "your" instead of "you are"
<mrvn> your fanny
<mjg> har har
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<geist> oooh yeah groundhog day is great. you can see why it is a complete trope
<geist> all later things with the same basic structure are considered groundhog day movies
<geist> also what is that movie with tom cruise. i surprisingly liked it
<geist> another groundhog day, though i hear it's a remake of an anime
<nomagno> Hm... How good is a 6 times decrease in performance compared to native for a VM?
<geist> VM as in a virtual machien using hardware assist?
<nomagno> geist: Virtual machine with no 'hardware assist'
<nomagno> Straight up fully software accelerated
<heat> decent i think
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<heat> i was just wondering
<heat> how accurately can you know which PCI devices are being used?
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<wxwisiasdf> hi
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<heat> hi
<wxwisiasdf> this is like, the 4th rewrite to my os
<wxwisiasdf> it's just so wholesome to see the 3270 go rainbow-y with vt100-like commands
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<heat> maybe you should avoid rewriting
<heat> it's usually not the best option
<wxwisiasdf> true, lol