10:32 <rapha> my last day today of doing ruby as a day job :(

10:33 <rapha> from Monday, Java. i hope i'll survive long enough to find another ruby job.

10:48 <gaussianblue> Is ruby superior to java?

10:56 <stenno> nonsense question

10:56 <stenno> mu

11:02 <richard_h1> hi - I'm trying to get a ruby app (redmine) from debian bullseye-backports running on bullseye, but it's not running. One error I see is failing to find a gem (roadie-rails), but it seems to be looking in the wrong place. I see lots of references to bundler-2.1.4, but I'm running 2.2.5-2. I can't see where it gets the 2.1.4 version from. Any tips?

11:03 <richard_h1> I'm not a ruby dev, unfortunately (probably obvious)

11:04 <richard_h1> hmm - I see my ruby package version is 2.7, so I guess this question is somewhat off-topic? Is there a better place to ask?

14:06 <adam12> rapha: Oh no :(

14:07 <adam12> richard_h1: IMHO, don't use Ruby from apt but install your own version using one of the version managers. It's annoying but Bookworm is onto 3.x already, and when you `apt dist-upgrade` it will all break, since Ruby uses major-minor specific locations for gem installs.

14:07 <richard_h1> adam12: sounds like similar recommendations as for python ...

14:08 <adam12> richard_h1: Ruby 2.7 is out of support which is why you don't see it listed in channel topic.

14:08 <adam12> richard_h1: Yeah. Really, the only language that has been half-decent via distro package managers is Perl. And that's because it's essentially dead :P

14:08 <richard_h1> so I need to keep my ruby setup separate from any 'system' ruby

14:09 <richard_h1> perl is where I have most dev history - and I will defend it as not dead :-)

14:09 <adam12> richard_h1: You don't necessarily have to, but I would suggest it just for ease. You're going to bookworm soon I bet, which will be a major/minor Ruby bump. Because Ruby has C extensions, and they link back into ruby, there is no guarantee of the ABI so Ruby needs new locations to store dependencies. So redmine will break :(

14:09 <richard_h1> is that what bundler is for then? to keep my ruby config isolated for the specific app?

14:10 <adam12> richard_h1: bundler manages Ruby library dependencies.

14:10 <adam12> If you're familiar with python, requirements.txt might be close? I'm not a python person.

14:10 <richard_h1> is there a specific tool to keep it isolated? like a python venv?

14:10 <adam12> I wrote a ton of Perl back in the day. cgi-bin for the win.

14:10 <richard_h1> I'm not very familiar with python. Played with it a bit.

14:11 <adam12> I don't remember venv, but in Ruby, the version manager of Ruby and the dependency manager of Ruby are separate.

14:11 <richard_h1> cgi-bin is a bit too old :-)

14:11 <adam12> So you can use bundler with system Ruby. Or you can install Ruby via rbenv/ruby-install/something else and then use bundler with that.

14:12 <adam12> Bundler basically looks at the application and says: they want X.Y.Z of this library, X.Y.N of this other library, etc. So even if 1.2.3 and 2.2.1 are installed, and the application wants the older version 1.2.3, it will have it (and not the potentially breaking 2.2.1 relase).

14:12 <richard_h1> rbenv seems to have the goal I'm interested in

14:12 <richard_h1> probably named after venv, or vice versa

14:13 <adam12> rbenv is maybe the most popular. chruby/ruby-install are also good, but have a different approach.

14:13 <richard_h1> then also download non-debian redmine

14:14 <adam12> You'll likely get a newer version.

14:14 <adam12> (which is good, obvs)

14:15 <richard_h1> as an admin, it's just a pain having to learn all these different infrastructure setups for each language :-(

14:15 <adam12> Yep. Sucks hard :(

14:15 <adam12> I feel like I'm slumming it when I sysadmin. Everything feels horrible.

14:15 <richard_h1> probably why lots of people go for docker ...

14:15 <adam12> 100%. And why the prolification of single Golang binaries became so popular.

14:17 <richard_h1> ... but docker is another infrastructure I'd have to learn, and not one I particularly like the politics of

14:17 <kjetilho> richard_h1: you mean "podman" :)

14:17 <richard_h1> anyway - thanks for the tips. rbenv is what I need to investigate, I think

14:17 <richard_h1> kjetilho: that's docker with different politics, right? Worth investigating, yes

14:18 <kjetilho> it's more open and more secure

14:18 <kjetilho> (since it can usually run without any root priveleges)

14:18 <richard_h1> possibly more future-friendly with IPv6 and nftables?

14:20 <adam12> Podman is good too. For Redmine, you could get away with just running it on the host but I might even spin up a container with Incus and have it running in there.

14:20 <adam12> (using rbenv and bundler)

14:20 <richard_h1> incus is another thing I need to learn :-) currently using plain LXC containers (on a Xen VPS)

14:26 <richard_h1> looks like podman does ipv6, but not nftables yet

14:26 <richard_h1> anyway, OT. thanks for the help :-)

14:56 <mooff> the Ruby packages in Debian are supposed to be managed by Debian, to support things like `apt install redmine` w/o having to worry about bundler etc

14:59 <mooff> Python recently made their package manager, pip, refuse to upgrade/install/remove system packages when they're managed by an external package manager (e.g. apt)

15:00 <adam12> That's an interesting approach

15:00 <adam12> Any version of Ruby/Python you dont' personally install should be considered by use of package manager only, imho. Homebrew is similar; homebrew Ruby should be considered volatile for anything not used by Homebrew.

15:01 <adam12> Unless version doesn't matter for simple scripts, etc.

15:01 <mooff> yeah, that's what's Debian say basically about their versions of Ruby and Python

15:01 <mooff> they're for the stuff in Debian, not for *your* applications

23:27 <rapha> asdf is quite nice when you have more than one thing you'd like to keep your own versions installed of

23:27 <rapha> the only thing i use system ruby for is system automation tasks ... as if it were bash or perl, basically

23:50 <Al2O3> rooobie doobie due