11:35 <razzy> sorry for weird linux question. My iptables script in /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptablesload does not execute at start of system. manually executed script works. executable with enough rights.

11:49 <razzy> propably solved

13:26 <beneroth> razzy, what was the mistake?

13:26 <beneroth> maybe a file ending convention in the if-pre-up.d dir? or wrong dir?

14:56 <beneroth> Regenaxer, I have the impression that Andras is not familiar with FEXPRs ;-)

14:56 <beneroth> good mail you wrote

14:57 <Regenaxer> You mean pd or Andras?

14:58 <Regenaxer> I think pd has a very complicated image of Lisp evaluatoon

14:59 <Regenaxer> The things he worries about are a non-issue ;)

15:02 <beneroth> Regenaxer, pd is clearly a platonist ;-)

15:04 <Regenaxer> In which sense?

15:04 <beneroth> I meant Andras, primarily because he wrote about the non-evaluating function definition as being for named parameters. Of course named parameters can be implemented that way, same as with (de foo @ ...), that is not the point.

15:04 <Regenaxer> loving Lisp?

15:04 <beneroth> loving elegant theoretical model :)

15:04 <Regenaxer> ok

15:05 <Regenaxer> Andras talked only about quote iirc

15:05 <Regenaxer> a "special form" in other Lisps

15:05 <Regenaxer> (in pil nothing is special ;)

15:05 <beneroth> like the idea of there being a pure elegant lisp, and practical implementation should aspire to get close to that abstract idea as possible. That is platonism, no? :P

15:05 <Regenaxer> yeah

15:05 <beneroth> I can very well understand the notion

15:06 <beneroth> but it leads to forgetting the whole point of programming. this way, it becomes art (about emotions, not necessarily of any practical use) and is not design anymore (form follow functions, first make it work than make it beautiful)

15:07 <beneroth> this is very attractive, of course, also to me. but in the end only physical effects (directly or indirectly) really "matters" (pun intended)

15:08 <beneroth> falling in love with the theory above practical uses leads to UML being defined in UML etc.

15:08 <beneroth> nice, not useful. art.

15:08 <Regenaxer> Exactly. For me too practical use matters most

15:09 <Regenaxer> ph thinks of "function application", I think of calling code which does something

15:09 <Regenaxer> "function application" is not suitable in the context of quote

15:09 <beneroth> yep. Picolisp has practical use and developer control and developer performance as main focus. everything else is secondary, even when you don't break with traditions without a "good" reason towards those goals.

15:10 <beneroth> yeah he thinks about lambda theory

15:10 <Regenaxer> yes

15:10 <Regenaxer> Cannot get the head around (quote . a) ;)

15:11 <Regenaxer> For me this is the simplest concept

15:11 <beneroth> thinking otherwise about this stuff is not bad, absolutely not. just a different focus, resulting in different decisions and consequences.

15:11 <Regenaxer> true

15:12 <Regenaxer> For me 'quote' is the mother of all functions, hor him it is just a special form and no function at all

15:14 <beneroth> T

15:14 <beneroth> of course, implicitly 'quote' is very closely tied to the actual function evaluation mechanism. It seems to me, he hasn't fully grokked it in picolisp yet.

15:15 <Regenaxer> To me too. It is simpler than the thinks

15:15 <beneroth> hehe, yeah. magic must not be simple. :)

21:35 <razzy> beneroth: one of the problems was that function iptables-restore had bad argument. it still does not work. I am calling script everytime i restart AP. which is one command almost never. no big deal.

22:00 <razzy> /exit

22:57 <razzy> Regenaxer: i am reading pd thread. i do not want to expand the thread. I like predictable boring languages. I had pain with (quote) function too. i was surprised i could do (quote . any). I think typical quote pd is talking about is good for predictability and meta programming. at least for me.