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<brandelune>
good morning !
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<razzy>
PilCon is comming!!
<Regenaxer>
Yep :)
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<razzy>
to explain myself. comments are generally good, but increasing worload. I prefer good debugger over good comments. debugger is one time investment
<Regenaxer>
I fully agree!
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<beneroth>
hi Regenaxer =)
<Regenaxer>
Servus beneroth
<beneroth>
sorry I couldn't participate. how was jitsi screen sharing today?
<Regenaxer>
I enjoyed it, nothing really new
<Regenaxer>
I explained OOP, so you know already
<Regenaxer>
And we discussed ideas about doc in general
<beneroth>
doc is picolisps weakest point. but doc should not duplicate what is in code.
<Regenaxer>
yep
<Regenaxer>
Nehal wants to have something with a more global view
<Regenaxer>
integrative
<beneroth>
question.. (abort 30 (pipe (exec ...))) could lead to zombie processes?
<Regenaxer>
not detailed comments etc
<Regenaxer>
I think abort has no effect here
<beneroth>
comments should explain WHY something was done. the how should be visible from code, unless it's very special binary magic or such
<Regenaxer>
the child terminates (or not)
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
so using that abort/pipe/exec combination is good idea, you think?
<beneroth>
exec is a long-running process
<Regenaxer>
Perhaps (pipe (abort ...
<Regenaxer>
abort sends an ALARM signal iirc
<beneroth>
but it's a bit error-prone, so I like to wrap aborts around the initial starting and mabye also whenever I read from it, to not getting stuck in case (read) is done when there is nothing to read (and no EOF neither)
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
nice idea, then no race condition (or smaller change) ?
<beneroth>
s/change/chance
<Regenaxer>
I think no race condition
<Regenaxer>
if the child terminates, the signal is not sent
<Regenaxer>
*terminated
<beneroth>
T. (pipe (abort Seconds (exec ...))) is nice
<razzy>
Regenaxer: I think graphical interface could be 2-10 times more effective than text interface. but i have trouble imagining workload for building and workflow of such graphical interface.
<beneroth>
watch Alan Kay talks :)
<beneroth>
(which does not explain how to do it, but point out that/how current GUI's are inferior to their true potential)
<razzy>
I have seen big data representatitions that are good. some interactive 2D/3D graphs :]
<razzy>
beneroth: I had to work with graphical interfaces of several big companies. It was just pretty pictures to lure customers in and really pain to have something done.
<beneroth>
yes, because the people who make the buy decisions are fashionable managers who don't actually work with the applications.
<beneroth>
so (by normal evolutionary incentives) software gets optimized for the people making the buy decision, software optimized for the actual users is selling less well.
<beneroth>
getting both right would be perfect, but costs more (money/time to market)
<razzy>
true :D
<beneroth>
also many software vendors live from doing maintenance "customizations", often just to fix bugs in the base product. fixing those bugs would significantly reduce income.
<beneroth>
I see not much use in criticizing the people to follow the incentives. the incentives must be fixed. not sure how, I guess the root cause is a lack of understanding and a lack of care.
<razzy>
:D I have seen specialised division to do your work for you via obstructed text API
<beneroth>
yeah
<beneroth>
or customizing plugins when writing from scratch would have been easier/faster/cheaper
<razzy>
I am not criticising seller of such product. I did not understand managers. I criticised them, I do not work there anymore :D. I think it is for the best.
<razzy>
beneroth: do you have link at hand for GUI Alan Kay presentation?
<beneroth>
I think he likes to bring it up in like every longer talk.. his people did amazing work many decades ago.
<beneroth>
I just saw recently a good talk from him (I think from 2012 or so? where he criticized our whole field pretty good.. let me find it
<beneroth>
this talk I've also seen recently.. it's a bit more about GUI and their work at http://www.vpri.org/, but unfortunately the slides are not shown in the video even when they would be the most important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QboI_1WJUlM
<beneroth>
unfortunately, this is more about the grand ideas and how to approach the topic. I still like to find some class diagrams / data models from the GUI systems in old Smalltalk or the other applications with GUI and small LOC from people around Alan Kay, but so far I couldn't find it
<beneroth>
I guess it boils down to: think deeply about what you actually require for the task at hand, solve this one and not any other. reductionist minimalism like in picolisp.
<beneroth>
yeah no stress, I just dumped you with some of the stuff I saw recently. :)
<razzy>
minimalism i my way of life.
<Regenaxer>
Hmm, in my experience text interfaces are a lot more efficient than graphical ones. They take more time to learn though
<Regenaxer>
efficient, and - more important - a lot more flexible and powerful
<Regenaxer>
Off for today :)
<Regenaxer>
afp
<razzy>
Regenaxer: I agree with you. Efficient is very different from effective. GUI has potential i never seen used. To present more data, engage more graphical parts of human brain.