zwr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
zwr has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
veqq: Me? I am not in charge of the language reference manual.
kanuba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<beach>
veqq: The Nova Spec is another HTML version of the standard. The language reference manual is meant to contain lots more information for a person learning the language.
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
decweb has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
istewart has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
istewart has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
istewart has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Alfr has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
shka has joined #commonlisp
Alfr has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
mishoo has joined #commonlisp
mgl_ has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
seanw has left #commonlisp [Killed buffer]
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
Guest47 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
edgar-rft` has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
edgar-rft has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
pve has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
theBlackDragon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
theBlackDragon has joined #commonlisp
jfloren has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
nytpu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
jfloren has joined #commonlisp
nytpu has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
rtypo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
jfloren5 has joined #commonlisp
[1]X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
Guest47 has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Guest47 has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
[1]X-Scale is now known as X-Scale
jfloren has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
jfloren5 is now known as jfloren
erru has joined #commonlisp
<erru>
hi guys, hows it going? yesterday i bought the book "let over lambda" and i cant wait to move ahead on my road to common lisp :) i just finished "practical common lisp" and am now writing the "foo" library myself for learning purposes. do you have any tips on how to improve? im interested in general topics for starters
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<jackdaniel>
erru: just a word of warning - "let over lambda" deliberely breaks out from the trodded path towards more obscure data representations and programming techniques, often incompatible with a contemporary common lisp programming style
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<erru>
jackdaniel: thats okay, im just interested in hacky techniques as well. not necessarily giddy to obfuscate code ^^
<jackdaniel>
regarding recomendations, the book "on lisp" (available for free) has some interesting and some widely used macros
<jackdaniel>
recommendations*
<jackdaniel>
then there is "Paradigms of Artificail Intelligence", a great book covering many useful programming techniques in Common Lisp (n.b it does not concern itself with neural networks)
<jackdaniel>
then there is "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" which is an interesting read if you are interested in common lisp object system implementation and extensibility techniques
<jackdaniel>
and if you are interested in various choices you could make when implementing this or that lisp (in general), there is "Lisp in Small Pieces"
<erru>
i know about those books. are there other ressouces or can you learn common lisp in 2025 just via books? :D on lisp is already on my ebook reader and im in chapter 4. SICP is what im reading in emacs every now and then
<jackdaniel>
possibly you may find materials on common-lisp.net too (the website was refreshed a few years back with new pointers)
<jackdaniel>
and of course various social channels like lisp, #lisp tag on fediverse, there's a jabber channel, matrix channel etc
<jackdaniel>
s/like lisp/like this one/
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<erru>
alright, thanks for your pointers. i'll try #clschool for starters :)
<jackdaniel>
if you have studied and understood practical common lisp, then you should have a good grasp on the language, it is a very good introductory material
<erru>
yes, i do have a grasp. i think i mainly am lacking practice at this point, which is why im writing foo. i dont really know what questions to ask, probably something about "how small should the functions be when programming bottom-up" or smth among those lines
<beach>
That's a good question. :)
<jackdaniel>
then "on lisp should
<jackdaniel>
"on lisp" should give you /some/ of answers
<jackdaniel>
the answers*
<erru>
nice. in 2 weeks im travelling to prague, ill read a lot on the way, at least i hope to
<jackdaniel>
(of course, like most books, it *is* an opinionated piece, but contrary to "social" Paul Graham, his common lisp books are imo excellent)
King_julian has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
Excellent modulo the fact that he frequently violates conventions, but it is easy to compensate for that problem.
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<erru>
as i said im only now in chapter four, but it has been an enjoyable read up until
<jackdaniel>
violating conventions is not a problem per se. at least no more than adhering to them religiously
<erru>
well said
TMA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<beach>
I think that someone writing a book on Common Lisp should try to respect conventions as much as possible.
istewart has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Lord_of_Life_ has joined #commonlisp
varjag has joined #commonlisp
Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
Pixel_Outlaw has quit [Quit: Leaving]
veqq has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<aeth>
violating conventions is fine, but you need to learn them first
<aeth>
so you kind of have to switch into more idiomatic code in certain contexts, like, yes, most books, imo
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
amusingly, writing code against conventions at times has made me appreciate such conventions in the long run
<aeth>
(usually)
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
<erru>
conventions do exist for a reason. but sometimes its okay not to follow them. some conventions also dont age well, like hungarian notation
shawnw has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<aeth>
The convention I most consistently break is deffoo/defoo vs define-foo-bar (one word vs several)... I just do define-foo. That way Emacs highlights it properly, etc. It's even in the standard (define-condition)
<erru>
are you sure you are breaking a convention there?
<jackdaniel>
that's not a convention, rather a stylistic choice
<jackdaniel>
foo-bar-p vs foo-bar? would be a convention choice (where the former is contemporary in Common Lisp, while the latter in Scheme)
<aeth>
erru: the convention being to use foop for one word and foo-bar-p for two words, or deffoo for one word and define-foo for two. I just always use the hyphen way even for one word
<aeth>
jackdaniel: I've experimented with Scheme-style foo? predicates, but I actually found a place for foo? in my CL code
ingeniot has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
jackdaniel: as _arguments_
<aeth>
(defun foo (bar?) ...)
<jackdaniel>
interesting
<aeth>
now you immediately know that bar? is only going to be used for its truthiness
<aeth>
in the little SLIME minibuffer
<jackdaniel>
that seems to implicate a generalized boolean from get go
<aeth>
I think this didn't arise as a convention (although it probably would've used foo-p as the name, too) because the SLIME minibuffer is kind of a new thing
<jackdaniel>
I don't know what is the slime minibuffer :3
<aeth>
The Emacs+SLIME minibuffer thing that tells you the function signature
<aeth>
probably not the proper term
<jackdaniel>
I see
<aeth>
The idea being that if you see (foo bar?) in the little buffer at the bottom, you... well, it's kinda like Hungarian notation in a sense :-p
<aeth>
but I think it works specifically for booleans because the generalized boolean is a special case kind of thing
<jackdaniel>
do you explicitly test in your code for (eq foo? t)
<jackdaniel>
?
stirl has joined #commonlisp
mosin has joined #commonlisp
<aeth>
no
<aeth>
so it's not quite Hungarian notation because it's not signifying boolean type
<jackdaniel>
my point is that if you use it in common lisp functions that treat objects as generalized booleans, then that's what it is
<erru>
using foo? kind of implies it though. its not as bad as iFoo for example though to signify a fixed-point number
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi978 has joined #commonlisp
kyoji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
kyoji has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi978 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[1]X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
[1]X-Scale is now known as X-Scale
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
bjorkintosh has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
bjorkintosh has quit [Changing host]
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
treflip has joined #commonlisp
treflip has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
treflip has joined #commonlisp
garlic0x1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
olivial has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
olivial has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
ebrasca has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
treflip` has joined #commonlisp
treflip has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
mosin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<ingeniot>
Hello everyone! :-)
<ingeniot>
I'm currently interested in "better" package definitions regarding :use and :import-from for "external" packages (i.e. packages I don't "own", e.g. of systems obtained via quicklisp).
<ingeniot>
As phoe wrote, it can be considered a bad practice to :use an "external" package.
<ingeniot>
I liked the advice of Robert Goldman (if I understood it correctly) to use :import-from for regularly used symbols and to use PACKAGE:SYMBOL (or SHORT-LOCAL-NICKNAME:SYMBOL for long package names) for rarely used symbols.
<ingeniot>
Now I would like to know how often I use symbols of "external" packages in a system to replace the :use of "external" packages.
<ingeniot>
I would like to get either a recommendation to use :import-from for a symbol or to use PACKAGE:SYMBOL when the "external" package was :use(d) before.
<ingeniot>
Since I didn't find a tool to support me in replacing :use, I wrote a draft that uses regular expressions.
<ingeniot>
Now I'm looking at code walkers and, as a detour, the incremental parser of beach et al.
<ingeniot>
Is anyone aware of a tool (preferably written in Common Lisp) to support me?
<ingeniot>
Would anybody be interested in the effort?
rendar has joined #commonlisp
khinsen has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
ebrasca has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
treflip` has quit [Changing host]
treflip` has joined #commonlisp
treflip` is now known as treflip
surabax has joined #commonlisp
pranav has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<jackdaniel>
import-from is as flawed as use, but on a smaller scope
<jackdaniel>
s/scope/scale/
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<jackdaniel>
unless you are sole owner of all packages involved, you are exposing yourself to future problems
<ingeniot>
jackdaniel: Are you prefering to use PACKAGE:SYMBOL then?
<jackdaniel>
if I'm using someone else's package -- yes
<ingeniot>
jackdaniel: I see.
<ingeniot>
Thanks!
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
stanrifkin has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
JuanDaugherty has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
decweb has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
TMA has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
<semz>
jackdaniel: how so? you only have to be the owner of all packages USEed (except CL), no?
<jackdaniel>
I don't understand the question
<semz>
what future problem is there if I (:import-from #:foo #:bar)?
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<semz>
if I were to (:use #:foo), sure, any newly exported symbol in foo might cause problems
<jackdaniel>
when you read the code and you see (bar 12 13) you don't know that it is from an external package; moreover say that bar is a common name, like buffer, and you define a generic function of the same name -- then you may unknowingly override some methods of a function that is yet to be defined by the parent package
<jackdaniel>
the answer to that is "well, if I'm careful then there shouldn't be a problem", and that's true; that's how C programmers avoid buffer overflows
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<semz>
ah fair
<jackdaniel>
speaking of "packages that all of them you own", my position is that the best implementation strategy is to define "api" packages, and then USE them all in the implementation package. a single program should reside in a single namespace (and I know that some people will disagree)
pranav has joined #commonlisp
<TMA>
jackdaniel: they'll disagree because it is sometimes hard to tell if something is "one bundle" or "several things bundled"
<jackdaniel>
if they work separately, standalone and there are no both-way dependencies, then there is a good chance that they are separate things
<scymtym>
ingeniot: what kind of parsing and/or walking are you planning to do?
yaneko has quit [Quit: parting]
JuanDaugherty has quit [Quit: praxis.meansofproduction.biz (juan@acm.org)]
<TMA>
jackdaniel: I like your heuristics.
<ingeniot>
scymtym: I absolutely have no idea. Currently I'm using a regular expression and it fails for several reasons (e.g. false positives of symbols in comments).
<ingeniot>
I don't even know if it is worth the effort to use code walking here.
<ingeniot>
So maybe the basic question is: Should we replace the :use of packages we don't own if we see it?
<ingeniot>
And is it worth the effort to automate at least parts of the replacement?
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<beach>
ingeniot: You probably need to examine each symbol, so you need some query-replace variant.
<beach>
ingeniot: And, yes, I think it is worth replacing the :USE because you already have a situation where things can break with the external package changes.
<beach>
ingeniot: You would need a code walker, but that might not be worth the trouble.
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
... if you want to automate it, I mean.
<ingeniot>
beach: Thanks! :-)
<ingeniot>
Is :use of packages that are not owned by the author a big problem in the wild?
geminium has joined #commonlisp
<beach>
The main problem, I think, is when several external packages are :USEd and they acquire symbols that clash in some new version of the software. But I don't :USE such package, so I am not sure about that.
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
bpanthi977 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
treflip` has joined #commonlisp
sel has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.5]
treflip has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
bpanthi977 has joined #commonlisp
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<ingeniot>
Ok, I'll skip code walking for the moment. Thanks all! :-)
random-nick has joined #commonlisp
yaneko has joined #commonlisp
ingeniot has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
erru has quit [Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.3)]
erru has joined #commonlisp
erru has quit [Changing host]
erru has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
yanekoyoruneko has joined #commonlisp
yanekoyoruneko has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ixelp has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
ixelp has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
treflip` has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
erru` has joined #commonlisp
griffinmb____ has joined #commonlisp
kvik_ has joined #commonlisp
arpunk_ has joined #commonlisp
cracauer_ has joined #commonlisp
jonlevin_ has joined #commonlisp
paulapatience_ has joined #commonlisp
ggb_ has joined #commonlisp
emacsomancer_ has joined #commonlisp
sm2n_ has joined #commonlisp
pvac_ has joined #commonlisp
simendsjo_ has joined #commonlisp
bmp_ has joined #commonlisp
mcoll_ has joined #commonlisp
jtbx_ has joined #commonlisp
theothornhill_ has joined #commonlisp
greenfork_ has joined #commonlisp
ajoberstar_ has joined #commonlisp
x4d6165_ has joined #commonlisp
adrianbrink_ has joined #commonlisp
dustinm`_ has joined #commonlisp
mgl has joined #commonlisp
brokkoli_originl has joined #commonlisp
BierLiebHaber_ has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
kst has joined #commonlisp
Mandus_ has joined #commonlisp
Irvise_ has joined #commonlisp
mal1 has joined #commonlisp
tux0r- has joined #commonlisp
luna-is-here_ has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
erru has quit [*.net *.split]
TMA has quit [*.net *.split]
mgl_ has quit [*.net *.split]
krjst has quit [*.net *.split]
mathrick has quit [*.net *.split]
brokkoli_origin has quit [*.net *.split]
kvik has quit [*.net *.split]
ajoberstar has quit [*.net *.split]
emacsomancer has quit [*.net *.split]
x4d6165 has quit [*.net *.split]
sm2n has quit [*.net *.split]
bmp has quit [*.net *.split]
jonlevin has quit [*.net *.split]
simendsjo has quit [*.net *.split]
theothornhill has quit [*.net *.split]
jtbx has quit [*.net *.split]
greenfork has quit [*.net *.split]
paulapatience has quit [*.net *.split]
mcoll has quit [*.net *.split]
Irvise has quit [*.net *.split]
pvac has quit [*.net *.split]
ggb has quit [*.net *.split]
arpunk has quit [*.net *.split]
cracauer has quit [*.net *.split]
luna-is-here has quit [*.net *.split]
dustinm` has quit [*.net *.split]
BierLiebHaber has quit [*.net *.split]
yacin has quit [*.net *.split]
Mandus has quit [*.net *.split]
griffinmb___ has quit [*.net *.split]
adrianbrink has quit [*.net *.split]
disruptek has quit [*.net *.split]
tux0r has quit [*.net *.split]
smlckz has quit [*.net *.split]
lieven has quit [*.net *.split]
ajoberstar_ is now known as ajoberstar
bmp_ is now known as bmp
ggb_ is now known as ggb
paulapatience_ is now known as paulapatience
jtbx_ is now known as jtbx
pvac_ is now known as pvac
jonlevin_ is now known as jonlevin
greenfork_ is now known as greenfork
simendsjo_ is now known as simendsjo
emacsomancer_ is now known as emacsomancer
cracauer_ is now known as cracauer
mcoll_ is now known as mcoll
theothornhill_ is now known as theothornhill
x4d6165_ is now known as x4d6165
sm2n_ is now known as sm2n
adrianbrink_ is now known as adrianbrink
kvik_ is now known as kvik
tux0r- is now known as tux0r
NotThatRPG has joined #commonlisp
TMA has joined #commonlisp
varjag has quit [Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.3)]
yacin has joined #commonlisp
mathrick has joined #commonlisp
smlckz has joined #commonlisp
smlckz has quit [Changing host]
smlckz has joined #commonlisp
Guest47 has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
disruptek has joined #commonlisp
kevingal has joined #commonlisp
Guest47 has joined #commonlisp
apac has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
erru` has quit [Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.3)]
apac has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
bjorkintosh has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
bjorkintosh has joined #commonlisp
waleee has joined #commonlisp
rtypo has joined #commonlisp
X-Scale has joined #commonlisp
waleee has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
waleee has joined #commonlisp
stirl has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.6.0]
veqq has joined #commonlisp
stirl has joined #commonlisp
geminium has quit [Quit: Client closed]
geminium has joined #commonlisp
yaneko has quit [Quit: parting]
yanekoyoruneko has joined #commonlisp
yanekoyoruneko has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
brokkoli_originl has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
yaneko has joined #commonlisp
ingeniot has joined #commonlisp
markb1 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
ColinRobinson has joined #commonlisp
geminium has quit [Quit: Client closed]
markb1 has joined #commonlisp
brokkoli_originl has joined #commonlisp
mpnielsen has left #commonlisp [#commonlisp]
ColinRobinson is now known as JuanDaugherty
parjanya has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
JuanDaugherty is now known as ColinRobinson
<decweb>
I dusted off a hunchentoot/hunchensocket app I haven't run in a year, last known to be working, but there's now an error arising on a call to make-instance call to a subtype of hunchensocket:websocket-client. It's complaining about a "DNT" string where a keyword was expected. It isn't coming from my code. Anyway, if anybody knows anything tips appreciated.