cr1901 changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, CD/floppy disk theory of operation, and the 68k CPU are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
<andlabs>
it's 2020x272 and I still need to possibly add the kyboard
<andlabs>
thanks to whoever did the layout for the newly added DX9 core because that cut a lot of work for e =p
<andlabs>
*me
<cr1901>
Good stuff :o
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<andlabs>
yay the patch got merged
<Sarayan>
:-)
<Sarayan>
you were saying you're running mame in a vm, I'm curious why?
<andlabs>
because I'm stubborn and don't want to upgrade my macOS
<Sarayan>
ah, you're < 10.14?
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<tunixman>
wow.
<tunixman>
that's vintage software running on vintage software.
<tunixman>
speaking of vintage, I first apprenticed horn repair at a shop named "Vintage Winds", which is basically a pun on "old fart", but through the yiddish "alter cocker", which, well, basically means old fart.
<qu1j0t3>
heh
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<andlabs>
lol
<andlabs>
and yes I'm still 10.12
<alexisvl>
10.12.6 is 3 years old, that doesn't sound terribly vintage to me
<andlabs>
it isn't! unless you're a modern software developer 🙃
<andlabs>
or apple, I guess
<alexisvl>
software developers shouldn't be allowed to have nice computers, it just encourages them to exclude the rest of us
<alexisvl>
also, web developers should have to use dialup
<qu1j0t3>
alexisvl: also lets them avoid addressing performance issues that 95% of people will face
* qu1j0t3
needs to figure out how to update CA certs on 10.14.6 bc it hates half the web
<alexisvl>
that's what i was trying to say :P
<qu1j0t3>
ah yes
<qu1j0t3>
rereading i see i just repeated your sentiment
<cr1901>
But last time I looked into it, against fseidel's judgment, I nope'd the fuck out
<cr1901>
"How to write a MOD player: Don't."
<andlabs>
libmodplu
<andlabs>
g
<andlabs>
or libmikmod
<andlabs>
or whatever library is in vogue today
<andlabs>
but yeah
<andlabs>
macOS 10.15 and up keep adding new APIs that some devs want to use for no good reason
<qu1j0t3>
cr1901: doesn't work on 10.14 ..... yeah what andlabs said. I was v disappointed.
<andlabs>
what API was it
<KitsuWhooa>
andlabs: having developed macOS software
<KitsuWhooa>
it's not "no good reason" typically
<KitsuWhooa>
it's "either use this or everything barely functions and constantly breaks"
<KitsuWhooa>
and that's the story of how I dropped support for macOS
<qu1j0t3>
And yet, kicad 5 ran fine on OS X.
<qu1j0t3>
still must, for those of us without newish hardware.
<KitsuWhooa>
I'm referring to using those old apis on the newer OSes
<KitsuWhooa>
it's either having a gazilion code paths just to keep compatibility for a few versions behind
<KitsuWhooa>
or drop support for anything but the latest
<qu1j0t3>
indeed, yet another reason not to force OS X upgrades EITHER.
<qu1j0t3>
KitsuWhooa | it's either having a gazilion code paths // exaggeration, adn also with every bit of forced obsolescence, they use part of their user base. anyway what do i know, only been developing on Mac since 1985
<qu1j0t3>
lose part of*
<KitsuWhooa>
sure
<KitsuWhooa>
almost no one stays on old macOS versions
<andlabs>
I dunno, I haven't really found a lot of things affeced by that
<andlabs>
unless it's doing something that's generally unusual like off-thread drawing or custom video drivers
<andlabs>
but maybe I haven't seen enough
<andlabs>
App Store might be a bigger driving factor than shiny new APIs and yeah that' sfair
<andlabs>
but if you aren't *absolutely needing* the new stuff and you're open source like qt or docker are you have no excuse
<KitsuWhooa>
Are the old apis supported on M1 macs? :p
<alexisvl>
<KitsuWhooa> almost no one stays on old macOS versions <-- except people who don't buy new hardware, since Apple drops support early
<KitsuWhooa>
I am pretty sure apple doesn't "drop support early", but even if they did, there's a whole community dedicated to running new macOS versions on unsupported hardware
<alexisvl>
I wouldn't be so sure, the oldest thing Ventura will run on is from 2017.
<tunixman>
wooo hooo hackintosh!
<tunixman>
I used to work on ppc linux... lots of BSPs for weird hardware, but not ARM weird.
<andlabs>
yeah apple does not drop support early
<andlabs>
they wait around 10 years or so
<tunixman>
I mean with ARM you're lucky to have the same subset of instructions.
<alexisvl>
apple just released an OS that won't run (out of the box) on anything more than 5 years old, what are you talking about?
<tunixman>
and on-chip devices, well, bwahahahahahaahah
<andlabs>
it's the slow hardware fast software approach that smartphones popularized
<andlabs>
or were supposed to popularize before "new phone every year" became a thing
<alexisvl>
last I checked, 2017 wasn't ten years ago
<andlabs>
okay 5 years in this case fine
<alexisvl>
that is dropping support early
<KitsuWhooa>
Did someone say Win11 and TPM2.0
<alexisvl>
call me when you find an application that won't run on Win10 but runs on Win11
<andlabs>
gonna bet the answer will be "anything on the microsoft store"
<KitsuWhooa>
Win 10 EOL is coming
<alexisvl>
also, Apple makes the hardware too, which means that by making this choice they're directly contributing to pileup of e-waste in landfills. obviously a choice that benefits them and is 100% understandable but we should still 100% hang them for it (in minecraft). you release hardware into the world, you should have to own the environmental impacts of it
<KitsuWhooa>
I think Apple is the last company you should complain about when it comes to obsolete hardware
<KitsuWhooa>
and I _despise_ Apple
<alexisvl>
microsoft is shitty too, so I'm not sure what "what about microsoft?!" is supposed to mean
<KitsuWhooa>
It's a new trend
<cr1901>
Look, I'm still using my W520 from 2011 as my main driver. I'm doing my part.
<alexisvl>
KitsuWhooa: again - it doesn't matter that others are worse, it's not others that i'm talking about
<cr1901>
(For those who don't know- W520 was a _very_ good laptop in 2011, and is repairable/upgradable. So I can make it last.)
<KitsuWhooa>
How does it not matter
<andlabs>
yeah I'm dropping out
<KitsuWhooa>
When companies drop support for their phones within 2 years
<alexisvl>
they're pieces of shit too! what does that mean for apple?
<KitsuWhooa>
And smartphone production is not comparable to mac devices
<KitsuWhooa>
it means that the ewaste from macs is insignificant
<KitsuWhooa>
and if you want to be outrated about something, go after garbage manufacturers
<alexisvl>
no, it means it's insignificant relative to other devices. if you get rid of those devices, apple's would still stand. they should be judged for what they do, not for how bad it is compared to samsung or whatever
<KitsuWhooa>
Yes
<cr1901>
Apple should make their phones repairable, and they're not embracing right to repair out of the goodness of their heart
<KitsuWhooa>
but get rid of those first
<KitsuWhooa>
cr1901: never stopped third party repair
<alexisvl>
i'm not getting rid of any of them, i don't know why we're even on the topic of _phones_
<cr1901>
They're doing it to cover their asses
<alexisvl>
all i said is "apple breaks APIs because it benefits them, makes you buy new hardware and throw out the old hardware"
<alexisvl>
what does any of that have to do with phones
<alexisvl>
the issue is we shouldn't accept them manipulating API definitions to keep pumping the electronics garbage cycle. they should have to maintain their shit
<alexisvl>
you release something into the world, you deal with the externalities. yes, even if others' are worse.
* cr1901
thinks there's an impedance mismatch between you two here, but not sure he can word it correctly
<KitsuWhooa>
Catalina ran on devices from 2012
<KitsuWhooa>
:p
<KitsuWhooa>
And Apple has been doing this API garbage for a long while now
<cr1901>
Can we all agree that none of us are fans of Apple's business practices (putting it mildly)?
<KitsuWhooa>
Mojave ran on devices from 2010
<alexisvl>
ok?
<alexisvl>
the impedance mismatch here is that I strongly do not believe "they did a good thing" is relevant to a discussion of a bad thing they are doing
<alexisvl>
none of these points _matter_
<KitsuWhooa>
No one said they did a good thing
<alexisvl>
they are _currently_ breaking shit early
<KitsuWhooa>
I am arguing that they are not changing APIs to force people to buy new devices
<KitsuWhooa>
just because the latest OS only runs on 5 year old hardware
<alexisvl>
no, you're arguing that they weren't, when those versions came out
<KitsuWhooa>
when the previous ones ran on much longer
<KitsuWhooa>
as for how we ended up in the phone conversation, you talked about landfill ewaste
<KitsuWhooa>
anyway
<alexisvl>
ah yes, and then you whataboutism'd them with phones
<KitsuWhooa>
lmao
<KitsuWhooa>
🤡
<KitsuWhooa>
anyway
<KitsuWhooa>
00:18:36 <andlabs> yeah I'm dropping out
<cr1901>
Really? clown face :/
<alexisvl>
it's a signature
<qu1j0t3>
cr1901: I wouldn't put it mildly. they have lost their license to exist.
<cr1901>
Look, I'm not moderating this b/c it's a (mostly) technical discussion/argument, and ppl are free to disagree about technical shit.
<cr1901>
But don't insult each other
<cr1901>
ppl are free to disagree about technical shit in here*, even vociferously*.
<cr1901>
qu1j0t3: It was sarcasm, sorry :P. I resent Apple as a company. But it's delusional to say they make shit products
<cr1901>
err, lemme rephrase
<qu1j0t3>
i didn't say that :) i just said they shouldn't be allowed to exist. they should be vaporised.
<alexisvl>
I don't think it's delusional, and I say this as someone who likes their hardware. But nothing is _objectively_ good, and if your priorities are such that their products are shit at meeting them, then they make shit products
<qu1j0t3>
that the hardware lasts 10+ years and the software has the shelf life of a cracked egg is a problem
<cr1901>
alexisvl: Yea, I didn't like how I phrased that, sorry
<alexisvl>
...also, I don't think anyone did say that
<cr1901>
Started typing out a better response, but yours will do
<alexisvl>
anyway, my general take in a less argumentative form is: releasing physical products into the world always carries an environmental and ecological net negative impact, and you should be fully expected to neutralize this impact. this means supporting your hardware for as long as the majority of them are still functional.
<alexisvl>
this should be expected of everybody who inflicts more hardware on the world, whether it's apple, samsung, or my grandma
<alexisvl>
yes, it is painful and no company under capitalism would ever do it willingly, which is why they should be forced to be good citizens.
<cr1901>
In the 80s, your motherboard would still be perfectly acceptable for day to day usage 5 years after you bought it. This wasn't true in the 90s and the early 2000s. But I feel like it's true again now and most ppl either don't or won't realize it.
<cr1901>
But also, I will keep using my w520 as long as it's functional before buying a new computer (tho I may do that soon as a contingency)